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History Of BA LGW-CCS & BOG Services?  
User currently offlineJosephJarvis From UK - England, joined Apr 2011, 158 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

Hi everyone,

I am aware British Airways used to serve Bogota, Colombia and Caracas, Venezuela from LGW.

What time did this flight arrive and depart London Gatwick and with what aircraft?

Also why was this route stopped?

I would appreciate any information on this.

Thank you.

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZuluTime From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4053 times:

2001 schedule was:
BA2049 departed LGW at 1015 on days 3/5/7 to CCS and BOG
BA2048 arrived LGW at 1240 on days 1/4/6 from BOG and CCS
Operated by 777

It was originally operated by a 747-200 when the service moved to Gatwick approx 1998 but then went onto a 777 when the 747-200s were retired. The route was stopped in 2003 - if I recall correctly, there were some major landslides in Bolivia and a big devaluation of the Venezualan currency which all happened at about the same time and taken together, these events undermined the viability of the route and it was pulled.


User currently offlineJosephJarvis From UK - England, joined Apr 2011, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4030 times:

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 1):

Thank you for the reply.

Did these times stay much the same until the route ended in 2003?

Regards,


User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 1):
It was originally operated by a 747-200 when the service moved to Gatwick approx 1998 but then went onto a 777 when the 747-200s were retired.

742s in the 90s on that route? I don't think so. 747-400s for sure from LHR, then 777 from LGW, then 767 from LHR, and 777 when it ended.


User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

The route operated out of LHR until spring 1997 when all the South America routes moved to LGW, together with the first 747-400 that arrived at Gatwick. The route operated twice a week Fri-Sun on the 744 until fall 98 or spring 99 when it began operations 3 times a week Wed-Fri-Sun on the 772. The flight operated on the 772 except for spring 2001 that it operated on the 763. In 2003 the route moved back to LHR on the 763 during one year unitl finally reverting back to the 772 until the route closed in early 2005.

The route always operated on the same times ex-London. The land slides were actually in Venezuela and happened in 1999, there was no major devaluation but a month long general strike in 2001 in Venezuela also generated disruption in the route. (Bolivia is a country thousands of kms from either CCS or BOG). Both times the flight operated via BGI (and short while via TAB). LGW-BGI-BOG-BGI-LGW.





[Edited 2012-01-19 16:31:44]

User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2048 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

I think I recall that when the route ended, BA was happy with yields (including cargo) from Bogota, and would have considered a direct LHR-BOG flight, but that the 763 wasn't really able to do the flight non-stop due to BOG's elevation. I wonder if this route could come back with the 788?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineedina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3559 times:

Quoting ZuluTime (Reply 1):
It was originally operated by a 747-200 when the service moved to Gatwick approx 1998

Whilst at LGW the BOG/CCS route was only ever operated by 744,777 or 767.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineACES320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3349 times:
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Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 5):

I think I recall that when the route ended, BA was happy with yields (including cargo) from Bogota, and would have considered a direct LHR-BOG flight, but that the 763 wasn't really able to do the flight non-stop due to BOG's elevation. I wonder if this route could come back with the 788?

The 763 did not have the legs for a non-stop. The 744 offered too much capacity. The 772 was restricted due to altitude ex-BOG. It was also an issue at the time that due to block times a relief crew was to be on-board due to some sort of union agreement on maximum number of hours even if operating non-stop. Axing the CCS stopover would have helped the economics of a LHR-BOG non-stop but incurring the overheads of multiple crews eliminated any economic advantage. The yields were good, specially in cargo, but in general the performance was not brilliant. The entire operation became unfeasible at that point. A 788 would have been the perfect match for the route, and it has been hinted that BOG will be in the list of reinstated destinations at some point by BA. Some of the factors are the new LANColombia hub at BOG, the availability of the 788/9 and the availability of extra LHR slots if the BD acquisition goes through.

Regards



LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Quoting ACES320 (Reply 7):
It was also an issue at the time that due to block times a relief crew was to be on-board due to some sort of union agreement on maximum number of hours even if operating non-stop.

Not exactly, one crew could remain on board with the proper bunk rest times. What was not allowed was landing for refuelling and taking off again with the same crew. The route proposed was LHR-BOG-BGI-LHR with no change of crew on the in-bound sector, just a tech stop but unions would not allow it.

Quoting ACES320 (Reply 7):
The entire operation became unfeasible at that point.

Not quite true either, the operation was pheasable, yields were good in Economy and not bad in Club, First was the problem, but cargo made a lot of what First would not make. The route was then put on the newly configured 3 class 772 with no First and things began to look much better. Cargo capacity was back to normal and more economy seats would help the route. Sadly the losses made in the two Venezuelan events and UK having signed new bilaterals with India and China put the route on the spot as a candidate to send its plane to a route BA had longed for many years: Shanghai. As we say in Colombia: Shanghai mata Bogota. (Shanghai kills Bogota).


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9570 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3260 times:

Will BA ever restart flights to CCS/BOG?

A388


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 9):
Will BA ever restart flights to CCS/BOG?

IMHO, BA LON-BOG would be up to Oneworld pals LA and IB to decide.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3151 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 10):
IMHO, BA LON-BOG would be up to Oneworld pals LA and IB to decide.

LAN wants to fly it when LAN gets the B-787-8s. Currently, AV holds the route authority to fly between BOG and LON, which expires by mid-year. Let's see if AV either applies to extend the route authority, or actually opens the route to keep LAN from operating it.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 11):
LAN wants to fly it when LAN gets the B-787-8s. Currently, AV holds the route authority to fly between BOG and LON, which expires by mid-year. Let's see if AV either applies to extend the route authority, or actually opens the route to keep LAN from operating it.

That's all fine about LA and the route authority from the Colombian side because surely if AV drops the route authority and LA Colombia gets it that BOG-LON would bear the BA code-share.
But what if AV keeps the route authority then? LA B787 mean nothing then or for the route authority from the UK side, which could be BA's if BA still has it or wants it
It's like the UK - Colombia bilateral allows only one airline, regardless if UK's or Colombian to operate between BOG and LON?
If I'm not mistaken, there were times when both AV and BA flew between BOG and LON.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineACES320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3091 times:
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Quoting bogota (Reply 8):
Sadly the losses made in the two Venezuelan events and UK having signed new bilaterals with India and China put the route on the spot as a candidate to send its plane to a route BA had longed for many years: Shanghai. As we say in Colombia: Shanghai mata Bogota. (Shanghai kills Bogota).

Yes you are absolutely right. Sorry I could not extend it further.The 777s and 747 went to China/India The 763 was also re-assigned to the Baltimore run for some seasons during that period. Rightly so, the Asian routes would kill BOG everyday of the week. In a conference I attended with W.Walsh at Cranfield University in 2007 he made it clear that BOG would be in the radar once the 787s arrived. But as we all know the 787 never made it in time. I'd probably see this one going to BA in their own metal. They will give AV a run for their money if they finally start their LHR services from BOG.

Bogota, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Hanoi, and some other BRICs and CIVETs destinations have been slated for the next round of expansion, should BA seal the purchase of BD and have the slot capacity to launch new long-hauls.

Regards ACES 320



LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3090 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):
It's like the UK - Colombia bilateral allows only one airline, regardless if UK's or Colombian to operate between BOG and LON?

The bilateral between the two countries could change in the future. Also, we'll have to wait to see if LAN Colombia applies for the route authority if AV does not use it.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 12):
If I'm not mistaken, there were times when both AV and BA flew between BOG and LON.

BA can resume services between LON and BOG anytime.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 14):
BA can resume services between LON and BOG anytime

As it's widely believed, these days BA may need IB blessing to do so.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 11):
LAN wants to fly it when LAN gets the B-787-8s. Currently, AV holds the route authority to fly between BOG and LON, which expires by mid-year. Let's see if AV either applies to extend the route authority, or actually opens the route to keep LAN from operating it

I doubt very much that Aerocivil will extend the right to use 7 frequencies to LON to AV if it does not operate it -or at least has it on the reservations systems- by May 15th, given that it has already been extended once.

This has just happened with frequencies to GRU, where AV had to add 4 flights to GRU (Now at 11 weekly, not counting the 7 of AV Brasil), otherwise it would have lost them. At the same Aires and AeroRepublica lost a total of 3 frequencies to GRU to AV, which will use it for additional GIG frequencies.

AV may claim that it is waiting for slots for LHR, but if LA make the case that they can have a 787 available to operate the route within 12 months, then they would have a good case to have those frequencies. Presumably they already have the rights on the Peruvian side to start service to LHR from LIM as soon as they have the 787s available.

[Edited 2012-01-20 06:50:19]

User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3029 times:
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Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 15):
As it's widely believed, these days BA may need IB blessing to do so.

And BA may want to strengthen its future relationship with LAN (LATAM); if LAN opts to stay in OW which is highly likely...


User currently offlineACES320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2954 times:
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Quoting Summa767 (Reply 3):
742s in the 90s on that route? I don't think so. 747-400s for sure from LHR, then 777 from LGW, then 767 from LHR, and 777 when it ended.


And here is the culprit


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Erick Houli



Indeed a 744 as suggested, sitting in the CCS stopover.

In the era pre-BA era these flights were operated by British Caledonian and in the very very good old days by British South American Airways. Would someone have any information on freq. and equipment those days. I good friend of mine in London has illustrated me of his ordeal the first time he traveled to the British Islands from Colombia. His routing was through Barbados, Dominican Republic. Azores, mainland Europe and UK. Anyone can shed light on this?



LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
User currently offlinescrappy27 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 276 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

I always operated at 744 on the CCS-BOG when I was crew at LGW in the 90's and as mentioned, it went to 777 and then 767.

User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

BA operated the 742 from LHR in the late 80´s to early 90´s. Prior to that it was British Caledonian in the DC-10 and 707 in the late 70´s and early 80´s. The Bogotá Cabin Crew base opened in 1978 together with the Rio Base. The flight originated in Lima through Bogota, Caracas, San Juan, Azores and London or via St Lucia into Lisbon and London if I recall correctly.

User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting bogota (Reply 20):
BA operated the 742 from LHR in the late 80´s to early 90´s

I know for a fact that in October 1990 it was a 744. I believe that at some point before that, it was routed LHR- Port of Spain - Caracas - Bogota.


User currently offlinebogota From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 777 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
I know for a fact that in October 1990 it was a 744.

I could be wrong, yet it is interesting to think that CCS-BOG would operate a brand new type of aircraft back then. According to "wikipedia" the first 744 joined BA in 1989. Not sure if that is true. Yes Port of Spain was also part of the routings back then.


User currently offlineACES320 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
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Quoting bogota (Reply 20):

BA operated the 742 from LHR in the late 80´s to early 90´s. Prior to that it was British Caledonian in the DC-10 and 707 in the late 70´s and early 80´s. The Bogotá Cabin Crew base opened in 1978 together with the Rio Base. The flight originated in Lima through Bogota, Caracas, San Juan, Azores and London or via St Lucia into Lisbon and London if I recall correctly.

I embarked in a little research campaign and found a delightful timetable belonging to British South American Airways dated 1st December 1948. The origins of the BOG-CCS route and other legendary South American and Imperial routes can be traced back to those days.

I am providing link. In those days linear and triangular networks were popular and the route would work like this:

LHR 09:30 -KEFLAVIK 15:30 -GANDER 23:10 -BERMUDA 06:40 -KINGSTON 12:55

At this point the route would split off one branch heading to Dominican Republic, St. Kitts, Antigua, Barbados, Curacao and CCS Caracas.

The other branch would head off from Kingston to BARRANQUILLA, LIMA, SANTIAGO. Around 3 days block time barring any screw-ups. Another route headed south LHR 13:00 -LISBON- AZORES -BERMUDA heading to HAVANA. That was the South American West Coast and Caribean network.

This was complimented by the East Coast Network that would route like this:

London, Lisbon, Dakar, Natal, Rio de Janeiro, Sao Paolo, Montevideo, Buenos Aires, also ending in Santiago.


Have a look here and enjoy yourselves.

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/bsaa1.htm

(images copyright of Bjorn Larsson and David Zekria)



LHR, BHX, EDI, BKK, USM, CNX, PHU, GRU,PEI, BOG, CTG, CPH, AMS, DOH, DXB, FRA, MAD and always PEI
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2520 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2636 times:

Quoting ACES320 (Reply 23):
I embarked in a little research campaign and found a delightful timetable belonging to British South American Airways dated 1st December 1948. The origins of the BOG-CCS route and other legendary South American and Imperial routes can be traced back to those days.

Fantastic! Thank you for that.

Quoting bogota (Reply 22):
I could be wrong, yet it is interesting to think that CCS-BOG would operate a brand new type of aircraft back then. According to "wikipedia" the first 744 joined BA in 1989

1989 for 744s in BA make sense. I recall quite well the crew emphasising that the 747-400 on which we were travelling was the newest airplane on BA's fleet. Oct 1990 was my first ever "jumbo" experience.
I guess if the 744 performance was better on the route than 742s, it was a good reason to use it.


25 SexyAdonis : It is important to point out that this timetable also include the services of British West Indies Airline (BWIA). For instance, in the case of Domini
26 ACES320 : And the initial bit of the run to Dakar was operated by BOAC it seems. An early sign of codeshare agreements. BEA would connect you to mainland Europ
27 SCL767 : Would be a great route for the B-787-8, whenever LA takes delivery of them and deploys them on long-haul routes. Currently, pax traveling between SCL
28 ACES320 : I am really looking forward to these routes being reinstated sooner rather than later. BOG and SCL are obvious South American missing links in the ne
29 Post contains images Coal : I flew the route in 1992 and can confirm it was a 747-200 to LHR via CCS. I believe it was in 1997 that they switched to 772s, but could've been late
30 ACES320 : The launch of the Club World cabins received a good deal of publicity in the Colombian national magazines (Semana, Cromos, La Nota) circa 1999. The p
31 Summa767 : October 1990 was definitely a 744, but that's not to say that they could not have reverted back to -200s for when you flew. 777 was definitely not 19
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