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6 More A359 For Cathay Pacific  
User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Hot off the press.

http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/c...CX_Discloseable_Transaction_en.pdf

These are in addition to the previous purchase of 30, taking the total ordered to 36.


A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6852 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14014 times:

Etihad cancel 6, Cathay order 6. You win some, you lose some!

Good news for Cathay, Airbus and, er, RR...   


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6852 posts, RR: 63
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13966 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...eal-for-six-more-a350-900s-367166/

"Cathay had previously said that it needs "new supper efficient aircraft" to replace its ageing fleet of Boeing 747-400s and Airbus A340s to meet its expansion plans."

There used to be a time when FLIGHT employed editors...  


User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13901 times:

According to the HKEX notice, they state that they expect these 6 to be delivered 2016-2017. Lets hope they actually will receive them during this time frame given the delay in the 350 program. Interestingly, CX also states that they will be used for flights from HKG to Europe. I am surprised that they can tell so far in advance that they will reploy them just to Europe and not other regions such as Middle East, Africa, North America etc. Is the A359 not suitable for any of their North American routes?

User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9948 posts, RR: 96
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13843 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Etihad cancel 6, Cathay order 6. You win some, you lose some!
Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 3):
According to the HKEX notice, they state that they expect these 6 to be delivered 2016-2017

Etihad's cancelled A350-1000 slots, anyone?     

Rgds


User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 13799 times:

Excellent news, congrats to both!

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
"new supper efficient aircraft"

Maybe they're adding more galleys 


User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1358 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13698 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
"new supper efficient aircraft"

But only in C. Y will stay chicken or pasta...



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13604 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Thread starter):
taking the total ordered to 36.

Or 38 including 2 to be leased from ILFC if anybody remembers!



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4679 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 13584 times:
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Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Etihad cancel 6, Cathay order 6. You win some, you lose some!

Good news for Cathay, Airbus and, er, RR...   

Indeed it is.  . And that for a program of which some think that the upper variant is a dog.  .

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
"new supper efficient aircraft"

They must taste good.  .

Quoting astuteman (Reply 4):
Etihad's cancelled A350-1000 slots, anyone?     

Very likely.   


User currently offlinecol From Malaysia, joined Nov 2003, 2092 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13253 times:

Zeke actually said thank you for the slots on the Etihad canx thread, guess you knew what was coming.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8852 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13259 times:

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 3):
Interestingly, CX also states that they will be used for flights from HKG to Europe. I am surprised that they can tell so far in advance that they will reploy them just to Europe and not other regions such as Middle East, Africa, North America etc. Is the A359 not suitable for any of their North American routes?

The 359 will be the smallest long haul aircraft CX will have, historically this is how CX has started new pax routes. The business case and fleet planning has been done to expand to a number of new destinations, or even reopen destinations CX has operated to before, or current freighter destinations. Not all of the 359 destinations planned are in Europe.

Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 7):

Stil a ot of options left to convert...



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2592 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 13247 times:
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CHAT OPERATOR

Congrats to CX and Airbus on this order. A total of 38 A359s would be excellent for CX's future expansion into new markets, and as replacements for the A343.

Last I heard, CX was due to retire its last 744 around 2017-2018, so deliveries of these A359s between 2016 and 2017 sounds like it's perfectly timed for 744 replacements too. It would seem that CX are replacing its 744 fleet with smaller aircraft, although it has been reported that CX will make its VLA decision some time this year. I guess time will tell.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinetitus95 From France, joined Feb 2009, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12959 times:
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If really CX replaces 744 with A359 , a smaller plane , in that case they will absolutly need a VLA , either A388/89 or 748I , or it will be for them a downgrade.

If they do not choose a VLA , either they have chosen the more frequencies way , either they are afraid of new entrants on the HKG market , of course Hong Kong Al with their A380s comes to mind.

Hope the 744 replacement with A359 is only the first step of a more ambitious plan.


User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12948 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 10):
The 359 will be the smallest long haul aircraft CX will have, historically this is how CX has started new pax routes. The business case and fleet planning has been done to expand to a number of new destinations, or even reopen destinations CX has operated to before, or current freighter destinations. Not all of the 359 destinations planned are in Europe.

In this case lets hope they use them on MAN, ZRH, ARN then   perhaps LGW even...

Although realistically by 2016 I would have expected them to have launched probably at least 1 destination amongst those plus the likes of MAD and BER.

[Edited 2012-01-20 02:47:07]

User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 838 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12803 times:

Great news, I have no idea why but I just have a gut feeling that the A350 project is going to one of the most successful projects ever attempted. I genuinely think Airbus has learnt from the problems with the A380 and will get it right this time.


Are we to assume that Airbus is still going to let customers easily change from one variant to another? With the A359's EIS only being a couple of years away this would be very difficult for Airbus to do.


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12400 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11323 times:

You can certainly understand why CX is so anxious to see the third runway at HK completed; I don't know what the current completion date is, but I'm assuming it's later this decade. CX is certainly on the march! I think it's also fair to say that these won't be the last 350s to be ordered by CX; the -1000 would probably be a very good replacement for regional 773s.

Roll on the VLA order ...


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11033 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 15):
I think it's also fair to say that these won't be the last 350s to be ordered by CX; the -1000 would probably be a very good replacement for regional 773s.

It could also be a good replacement for 77W on long haul routes.

A350-1000 in 9-abreast Y should have better operating numbers against 9-abreast B77W(or B777-9X) for most routes. CX is unlikely to go 10-abreast on 777.

EK on the other hand with its 10-abreast Y and 7-abreast J layout is likely to choose B777-9X over A350-1000.


User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9948 posts, RR: 96
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10759 times:
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Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 16):
EK on the other hand with its 10-abreast Y and 7-abreast J layout is likely to choose B777-9X over A350-1000.

????
EK has already "chosen" the A350-1000, hasn't it?   

FWIW I can actually see them operating the A350-1000 and B777-9X side-by-side, with the latter taking the space that might once have been for the 748i

Rgds


User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10597 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 17):
EK has already "chosen" the A350-1000, hasn't it?

FWIW I can actually see them operating the A350-1000 and B777-9X side-by-side, with the latter taking the space that might once have been for the 748i

What I should have said was that the bulk of replacement order for B77W would go to B777-9X. One can not rule out the possibilty that A350-1000 may be converted to A359.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3529 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

Quoting col (Reply 9):
Zeke actually said thank you for the slots on the Etihad canx thread, guess you knew what was coming.

He also said there were no slots available until 2018.


User currently offlinencfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 10124 times:

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
What I should have said was that the bulk of replacement order for B77W would go to B777-9X. One can not rule out the possibilty that A350-1000 may be converted to A359.

I think the bulk of the 77W fleet will be replaced by the 35J because it will carry 90% of the passengers in EK's configuration at less cost. The 779X can then be used for the routes that regularly sell that extra 10% load factor or need that bit extra payload. Range is pretty even, and the 35J will extend range as it matures, as will the 77X but I would assume by not as much as it is already an older base design tweeked as much as possble. I'm still to make my mind up if that extra 30 seats is worth an extra type in the fleet, or just abuse an A380 whilst the route builds to a reasonable load factor on the A380. A 35J at 317 seats equales a 63%ish load factor on a 380, whilst a 354 seat 777 equales a 71%ish load factor on a 380. Is that 8% worth the extra type.

A couple of questions-

What is the average EK load actor for cargo carried in the belly of 77W's?
How much volume and payload (after pax and bags) extra does the 77w carry over the 35J and 380?


User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2592 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7465 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting ncfc99 (Reply 20):
I think the bulk of the 77W fleet will be replaced by the 35J

So that's why EK recently ordered 50 more 77Ws, and have been on record as one of the strongest proponents of the 777X?

I think at EK, the bulk of the 77W fleet will be replaced by new build 77Ws, and/or 777-9X. EK's A35Js are likely to be used as replacement for the 772A/772ER/773s on short/medium haul missions, which is what they initially ordered the aircraft for, until Airbus changed it - hence this spiel from Clark saying that they should have been consulted first prior to the changes.



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlineastuteman From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 9948 posts, RR: 96
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6675 times:
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Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
So that's why EK recently ordered 50 more 77Ws

EK made it quite clear when they placed this order that they did so because they could no longer get their A350-1000's in the 2015-2017 time period, and as an insurance against further slippages to availablility of the A350-1000.

Nothing more. Nothing less

FWIW despite having made comments about the A350-1000 changes, they in no way linked those comments to the decision to order 50 more 773ER's, instead quite explicitly quoting the above reason, and the above reason alone.

Rgds


User currently offlinencfc99 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 738 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6588 times:

Quoting astuteman (Reply 22):
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
So that's why EK recently ordered 50 more 77Ws

EK made it quite clear when they placed this order that they did so because they could no longer get their A350-1000's in the 2015-2017 time period, and as an insurance against further slippages to availablility of the A350-1000.

Nothing more. Nothing less

FWIW despite having made comments about the A350-1000 changes, they in no way linked those comments to the decision to order 50 more 773ER's, instead quite explicitly quoting the above reason, and the above reason alone.

Arn't EK also retiring early 77W's as some of these new one aircraft come into the fleet, or will they operate all of them at once?

At it maximum fleet size around 2020, I'm guessing there will be over 100 77W's in the EK fleet (after delivery of this last order of 50), thats the fleet I think will mostly be replaced with 35J, not the currant fleet as it stands now. That is plenty of frames to split between 35J and 777X, wthout even thinking about growth. As I said above, is the extra few percent of capacity worth an extra fleet type. I'm yet to be convinced it is, but if Boeing pull another rabbit out of its hat as it did with the 77W, then yes I can see it, if not I'm scepticle that it is worth it. However, an EK fleet of just 359 & 35J, then a jump up to 388 (&389's) would surely be a challange for Airbus to supply all those frames in a reasonable time frame for EK, so that gives a 77X fleet a better than average chance of an order IMHO.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 21):
and have been on record as one of the strongest proponents of the 777X?

They talked about the 748 quite a bit too, but that went nowhere.


User currently offlineflythere From Hong Kong, joined May 2010, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6399 times:

Quoting cloudyapple (Thread starter):

These are in addition to the previous purchase of 30, taking the total ordered to 36.

Should be 38 total firmed order when consider also the 2 through leasing company.
Still many options left to come.

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Etihad cancel 6, Cathay order 6. You win some, you lose some!

CX takes 6 more at present because EY freed up the production slots.  
Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 16):
CX is unlikely to go 10-abreast on 777.

The best answer is NEVER. CX will NEVER go 10-abreast.


25 Post contains images Stitch : On their 777's they cannot, but they could on the 777X if Boeing does increase the inside cabin diameter a bit. zeke has noted that CX wants the same
26 kaitak : Has anyone actually gone to 11 abreast on the A380? I'd heard it talked about, but I wasn't sure if anyone had actually gone down that road!
27 Daysleeper : I’m intrigued as to why you think they would replace existing 77Ws with new build ones when the A35J will be able to operate the same routes but at
28 Stitch : To my knowledge, no.
29 rushed : I can't remember where or when I read it (or may be imagining this) but weren't CX looking at increasing frequency on key business routes? How does th
30 Post contains links LAXDESI : I too believe that A350-1000 in current iteration has a good future. I have a thread in tech. forum where I compared the A350-1000 to B777-9X as laid
31 Daysleeper : From previous discussions we have established that both these planes will reach there limits in terms of physical capacity before weight, so I’d do
32 LAXDESI : Volume constraints may indeed make it difficult for A350-1000 to realize its cargo advantage, and therefore make the B777-9X marginally more attracti
33 frigatebird : Not even EK, while they have their 777's 10 abreast in Y. And if they haven't I wonder if there are maybe some certification issues or other formalit
34 astuteman : I'm pretty sure I read a comment from Airbus that said the deck wasn't strong enough to accommodate 11-abreast, and to be honest, I'm not sure why an
35 Stitch : I'm sure the passengers would appreciate the extra width if CX went with a wider seat at 10-abreast, but they theoretically could do 11-abreast and s
36 cloudyapple : That's with a lot of Y seats upstairs and downstairs. When you have a F/J only upper deck then there should be a lot of leftover head counts. Is ther
37 zeke : I do not believe I actually said those words, I said they were next to impossible to get slots. Slots do become available from time to time. Seatguru
38 Post contains images scbriml : I believe the only regulation is that for new types, pax must be able to evacuate both forwards and backwards from their seat location. Interestingly
39 Stitch : As I don't fly OneWorld, I have not had the chance to break out the measuring tape as I have done for the reports I have given to SeatGuru for Star A
40 Post contains links and images AustrianZRH : That wouldn't work for the A380 either, as the foremost cabin of the upper deck has no forward door. Unless, of course, descending a flight of stairs
41 AirbusA370 : Yes, of course it is
42 cmf : There are also regulations about maximum distance between emergency exits.
43 zeke : Your guess is not correct, from memory the ACAP has a double armrest in the middle. Most airlines do not publish seat widths. The main reason being i
44 Post contains images Stitch : The A330 and A340 ACAPs measures seat width in the outer seat of the center section (the "G" seat in CX's confguration). The A350 ACAP measures from
45 Post contains links CXB77L : I don't wish to drag the thread any further off topic, so I've posted a message in response to those points here: Boeing 777-8X And -9X Now In The Pi
46 Stitch : I imagine EY informed Airbus before Wednesday - likely well before - that they were going to reduce their order and this allowed Airbus to shop the s
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