VC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 10 Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10584 times:
After reading a few threads lately on Alliances, the latest one being the end of the code share between Continental and Virgin, I was wondering if there are airlines NOT in an Alliance and can't get into one for various reasons. Are their any that have basically been shut out of the 3 major Alliances but are trying very hard to enter one?
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TCASAlert From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10408 times:
The thing is, if those airlines (such as AI) wanted to be in an alliance, surely they should do as others have done and find other airlines fitting their network, and set something up together. It's exactly how the big 3 were founded (*A, OW, ST).
In my mind there are enough airlines struggling to find alliances that they would be able to form another major alliance between them.
Obviously this is just a pipe dream and commercially there would have to be justification, but I don't see how with a bit of effort it couldn't be done.
N328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6318 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 9692 times:
Quoting TCASAlert (Reply 2): In my mind there are enough airlines struggling to find alliances that they would be able to form another major alliance between them.
Think about the type of airline that might want to be in an airline but can't. It's probably because none of the alliances feel they are a proper fit, or perhaps the desirous airline is just a lousy airline. If those airlines banded together to create their own alliance, do you not think they might create the redheaded stepchild of alliances in the process? What would make a passenger want to fly them? And where would they find a North American or European partner? All of the airlines in those regions who aren't part of an alliance probably don't want to be.
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kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8442 posts, RR: 14 Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 9388 times:
Quoting N1120A (Reply 6): Quoting apjung (Reply 5):
What's keeping *A from accepting EVA Air's request to join?
I'm thinking Air China.
Air China are currently a codeshare partner of BR, and have been rumoured to be their future sponsor for *A membership. I don't think anyone is keeping *A from accepting them, I think that they are currently being examined behind the scenes and at some point in 2012 an announcement will likely be made that they have been accepted as a future member of *A.
...Star Alliance is planning a key step forward in boosting its presence in the fast-growing North Asian aviation market by adding EVA Airways, Taiwan's second largest carrier. EVA will be mentored by Air China, which currently is the only Star member in greater China although Shenzhen Airlines is also now in the process of joining the alliance.
Separately from the BR/*A question, but still on the main topic of this thread, I think another point to bear in mind is that alliance membership in itself is not a panacea for a sick airline. Look at MX, it was a member of first A* and then OW, and it still ended up bust.
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articulatexpat From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2006, 155 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8903 times:
Didn't El Al try to set up an alliance? The WE Alliance, or something like that? If I remember, this was to include a few carriers based in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. That plan apparently fizzled out. But really, how many airlines with networks extensive enough to establish an alliance are there?
The Virgins come to mind first. They always seem to be in a state of flux, though, which could cripple any such proposal. Either there's SRB's public petulance, the SQ stake, the branding consolidation in Australia, the closure of the one in Nigeria, the ongoing accusations of illegal maneuvering in the US... closer cooperation would make sense on the face of it, but it would be like organizing a group wedding among schizophrenic patients in a mental hospital.
Without them, how many reasonably good airlines does that leave? Some, like Alaska and Emirates, probably aren't interested in alliance membership. LCCs probably aren't keen to add administrative costs that will make their operations more expensive.
You'd need airlines that fly transcontinental routes, because a patchwork of regional carriers wouldn't provide enough connectivity to attract passengers.
blink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5454 posts, RR: 18 Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6078 times:
Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 17):
EL AL even without political implications, wouldnt be a great alliance member unless they had a at least some type of connecting hub at TLV.
Exactly, and the problem is that they can't operate on the Sabbath, and the airspace restrictions on flights in/out of TLV prohibit the hub's would be strength as a connector. If these two restrictions do not exist, there's a great chance that TLV could be a DOH, AUH, or DXB. However, as is, TLV is extremely well covered by the european carriers and some of the US carriers. I really don't see what LY could bring to an alliance, and apparently, neither do the alliances. My hunch though is that if LY had to go to an alliance, it would be oneworld or Star if only because Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic relations with Israel.
TG and SQ are big competitors, and I'm not sure that Star has done much to make them cooperate more. I am also fairly certain that SQ doesn't participate in all of Star's programs or honor Star Gold from other carriers, as SQ feels that its own brand is diluted. Case in point, whereas First Class upgrades on many Star airlines are often granted on basis of Star Gold status, I think SQ seldom, if ever, upgrades pax to First, much less those who earned the bulk of their status on other airlines.
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jfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 809 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6046 times:
I think actually having El Al in either Star or Sky would in able the alliance to have an almost exclusive rein on a extremely rich country with a airport that handles almost 1.5 percent of the population.
Well, CI is in SkyTeam and they seem to be fine coexisting with CZ and MU and (in the future) MF.
I'm inclined to add PR into this mix, but they publicly declared that they want to be invited into an alliance. Still very disappointed though that they prefer oneworld: hopefully they'll consider SkyTeam or Star instead.
VC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2707 posts, RR: 10 Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5866 times:
It's odd, but over the years "Alliances" have become brands themselves. They are defined by their sum of all their members, the benefits beyond just seamless connectivity and reciprocal recgognition of status (to a degree) and somewhat well branded: name, identity, websites and advertising. If I was CEO of a decent sized airline that was well known for a good flying experience, I would "think" I'd want that recognition, being seen with certain company ...and yes, feeds that could help. I think of Ethiopian and what joining Star must have done for their reputation.
But I do think of how airlines who would want that but would be shut out by a competitor. El Al is interesting - I never thought about them. Also, if Singapore, Thai, Swiss, British, Cathay- then why not Emirates or Virgin? Why do they resist? If EK was to join Star and gain the massive connectivity throughout North America with both UA and US, I just don't know why they wouldn't want that and that Star wouldn't just die to have their logo on the placards and ads.
Last year I flew CSA and WOW, I was very impressed by that smallish regional carrier. I know they are in an alliance but are their others like them up for grabs? Could Azul be one soon? Is there a #2 carrier in France?
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flyingalex From Germany, joined Jul 2010, 1013 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5809 times:
Quoting blink182 (Reply 18): TG and SQ are big competitors, and I'm not sure that Star has done much to make them cooperate more. I am also fairly certain that SQ doesn't participate in all of Star's programs or honor Star Gold from other carriers, as SQ feels that its own brand is diluted.
This is not the case, or at least has not been the case when I have flown SQ (I used to hold bmi Star Gold status and currently have LH*G). When I fly SQ, I get all the benefits I get at any other airline - priority check-in, lounge access, priority boarding, the works. The only thing SQ does differently is that they have a separate, inferior lounge for KrisFlyer Gold members (and Star Golds) flying in Economy, whereas their Business Class and First Class lounges are reserved for those actually ticketed in those cabins.
The only people who get access to the Business or First lounges with an Economy ticket are SQ PPS Club members and PPS Club Solitaire members. This sub-programme of KrisFlyer tracks your eligible Premium Cabin spend with SQ in a given year (S$25K in one year for PPS, $250K within five years for PPS Solitaire).
Quoting blink182 (Reply 18): Case in point, whereas First Class upgrades on many Star airlines are often granted on basis of Star Gold status, I think SQ seldom, if ever, upgrades pax to First, much less those who earned the bulk of their status on other airlines.
You need to differentiate between the American model of courtesy upgrades and operationally necessary upgrades (op-ups).
Any airline will op-up passengers when necessary, and will show a preference for their own FFP members. The American carriers go a step further and upgrade passengers with status in their own FFP as a matter of course, if space is available (but only on domestic routes). Internationally, upgrades to First Class (or even Business Class) happen only if they are absolutely necessary, or when they are paid for in some way (cash, miles, FFP upgrade vouchers, whatever).
SQ is very good at getting people to actually pay for its premium cabins, which is why they rarely have to op-up people. When they do, they'll be looking for Solitaires and PPS Club members first, just like LH upgrades Hon Circle members, Senators and Frequent Travellers from its own Miles&More programme before upgrading a Star Gold from another carrier.
It just makes good business sense to take care of your own first.
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rushed From Australia, joined May 2000, 246 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5744 times:
I would think that Garuda would be chomping at the bit to get into an alliance given thier whole let's try and update our image to a professional, safe, comfortable airline etc... Thier new business product looks good but who's going to fly it given thier safety history etc. If they were in an alliance then maybe it would sway some confidence to get more premium bums on seats. The next question is which alliance would really want thier name attached to them until they have proved themselves to be safe?
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25 blink182: Garuda is listed as a future member of SkyTeam, which lists Garuda as possibly joining at some point this year.
26 rushed: Oh ok didn't know that - probably a good fit. What are others thoughts in sky team? Living in Australia don't have much to do with them but there are
27 LJ: They're scheduled to enter Skyteam in December 2012. BTW I'm surprised nobody mentioned Jet Airways. They probably want to be in Star, but politics a
28 flyingalex: Indeed, a perfect fit for ScaryTeam. They certainly wouldn't be the first carrier in the alliance to have had significant safety issues.
29 kiwiandrew: CI is in Skyteam , and BR is strongly rumoured to be joining *A.