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AF447:Families Want Access To Recorders  
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

"LCI" reports that victims' families demand full and unfettered access to the flight and voice recorders as part of their case for damages.
They are angry and find it suspect that they have denied for so long.
http://lci.tf1.fr/filnews/france/cra...ces-aux-boites-noires-6944963.html

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinegarpd From UK - Scotland, joined Aug 2005, 2624 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3086 times:

It's not the first time a crash involving an AF plane has had a refusal of release of the black boxes.


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User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2891 times:

Indeed.
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?
I can not fathom what more there is to add or do?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 2):
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?

There are a lot of "i"'s to dot and "t"'s to cross, as we say in US English.

Investigation reports never come out all that fast in any case.

I imagine the holdups are around what the recommendations should be, and how they should be stated.

I suppose they will not release the raw data because they want to have the first say on how they should be interpreted.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 2):
When will the BEA's investigation be finally completed?
I can not fathom what more there is to add or do?

Most recently, BEA announced that they would form a "Human Factors" working group, made up of specialists in cognitive sciences, ergonomics and psychology to examine all aspects linked to man-machine interactions and to the pilots' actions in the last few minutes of the flight. They said that the work this group was to perform would be done by the end of December, 2011 and included in the Final Report.

BEA has indicated that the Final Report on the incident would be released in the first half of 2012.

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/flight.af.447.php

Quoting garpd (Reply 1):
It's not the first time a crash involving an AF plane has had a refusal of release of the black boxes.

They've released a partial transcript already and in my opinion BEA has done a great job informing the public of the status of the investigation and any revelations that have resulted to date. I see no reason why BEA should release the CVR/FDR, although through litigation they may be forced too.

This is a summary of that transcript:
http://www.bea.aero/fr/enquetes/vol....int.enquete.af447.27mai2011.en.pdf



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 4):
"Human Factors"

Do you mean improved CRM?


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 2331 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 5):
Do you mean improved CRM?

My post was a direct quote from BEA. You can infer all you want from the links I included above. As I said, BEA has acted as a very professional accident investigation organization since the start of this in '09. Whether or not the CVR/FDR is released to the public I have no reason to believe that they've acted in anything less than a professional manor.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineajhYXE From Canada, joined May 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 5):
Do you mean improved CRM?

I think it has more to do with cockpit design than anything. On AF447 the pilots did not understand why the aircraft was moving the way it was. It is likely that confusion with instruments contributed significantly to this accident (as did poor CRM). Some environmental changes that affect the human brain's natural (sub-conscious) interaction with the cockpit could actually make a difference (consider "wheels" on landing gear levers).



Saskatchewan Roughriders, 2013 Grey Cup Champions! "GO RIDERS GO!"
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2113 times:

Quoting ajhYXE (Reply 7):
the pilots did not understand

I think this statement says it all. Man-machine interaction only works when one understands firstly the capabilities and specifications of the machine and secondly, who has final authority.

The BEA should release all transcripts and data info in the interests of openess and clarity, otherwise the conspiracy theory brigade will come a-runnin' with their charges. There is nothing to be lost in letting people see for themselves the evidence. In academia for example, conclusions without full disclosure of the evidence would merit you a slap on the head and dismissal.

[Edited 2012-01-21 00:30:57]


my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21522 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
find it suspect that they have denied for so long.

Why should they have access to it in the first place? They'll get the transcripts, same as everyone else, as soon as the investigation is done (and not before - the last thing we need is a case going to court based on an incomplete investigation).

The actual recordings themselves should not be released - no good can come of that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
The actual recordings themselves should not be released - no good can come of that.

-Mir

I´m quite sure that very soon after the families/lawyers have them, they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Jan


User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Not sure if French privacy laws permit that.
I have never heard a YouTube recording from the BEA.


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9523 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1908 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
My post was a direct quote from BEA. You can infer all you want from the links I included above.

   All we can tell from that is that they're not ignoring the human factors relevant to the accident.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
they´ll be released on Youtube for every ogre/ghoul to see.

Not sure if French privacy laws permit that.
I have never heard a YouTube recording from the BEA.

Privacy laws or not, it just takes one person to post them on the net and they´ll be there forever.

Jan


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13039 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1646 times:

This is a good example several of the growing conflicts in modern society.

One is privacy rights vs. freedom of information access/transparency. I am quite sure French law and perhaps EC agreements may limit release of the full tapes for sound reasons to protect the privacy of someone going to their death. Then there is that a release or a premature one before all of the potential investigation is complete may compromise it.

Second is the motivations of the various people who want this access. Many probably want to interpret the recordings in their own way either to absolve that the pilots made a mistake or that they had a mechanical/electrical problem so can absolve them of their actions. Many I bet are also wanting sufficient information to consider lawsuits, especially if there was a failure of some critical component made in the USA so can sue 'deep pockets' corporations there.

Third is the growing negative and suspicious attitudes toward governments and agencies, including investigative agencies. I would trust the integrity of the French air crash investigative agencies as equal to the USA's NTSB as well as those of others countries. Problem is that too many see 'conspiracies'. Some fear that the tapes could be edited or altered to limit financial liability and a hit on national pride as to French based AF, Airbus or component makers and to put the blame mainly in the pilots as 'human error'.

Fourth is the time, isolated place and lack of evidence as to how this crash occurred. As air crashes have become more rare and when one occurs as with AF447 with all it's unknowns, many are suspicious as to how it could have happened, so they want access to what may be the only evidence that is accessable.

Even in the USA, we have seen the release of transcripts and even audio of CVR's after the end of the official investigation of a crash. I am quite sure a number of people here have read the transcirpts of several crashes, for example where the deadheading pilots of a regional jet flew too high, damaged the engines, their horrilble dive to their deaths recored and becoming available. For some it is just natural curousity, for others voyerism and that is a balance that is difficult to deal with.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1465 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
The BEA should release all transcripts and data info in the interests of openess and clarity, otherwise the conspiracy theory brigade will come a-runnin' with their charges.

The conspiracy theory brigade will come running anyway. One of the characteristics of conspiracy theorists is that no evidence is ever sufficient to change their mind. They will just extra those portions of the new evidence that support their views and ignore/deny/denigrate anything that conflicts.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
There is nothing to be lost in letting people see for themselves the evidence.

"The evidence" are those portions of CVR and FDR that are relevant to the crash. That's what the investigators have released. What's to be lost from releasing the *non* relevant portions, which is what's being asked for here, is the integrity of the investigation.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 8):
In academia for example, conclusions without full disclosure of the evidence would merit you a slap on the head and dismissal.

This is an accident investigation, not a peer reviewed paper. The evidence is disclosed. The parts the vultures want, like non-pertinent cockpit conversation, has nothing to do with the investigation conclusions.

Tom.


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