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AF's Lost Aura  
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7497 times:

In past months,AF has axed so many routes and the savage cull is set to continue.
Beyond the economics,AF reminds me a badly injured former 70s and 80s thoroughbred that is longing to be put out of its misery.
Has it asked itself:Who am I and what is my raison d'être?
It needs someone who can really spring it back to life to rejoin genuine Premier League and not languish with a tarnished image of an has-been.
AF is at its crossroads and metaphysical twilight,a cross between AA and SR.
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 7013 times:

The only place it is losing it's aura is here on a.net, and I'm sorry, I dont mean to be rude, but you are perhaps the major reason why.

Every AF thread here recently has been started by you, or been flamed by you. I can count 5 threads now in just the top 15 which you have opened.

The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

There is a plan in place - it obviously involves cutting routes that just dont work. Far from being a negative, it is a positive. It will stem the bleeding and position the airline on a more sound footing.

It is acknowledged that the premium product has to improve.
It is acknowledged that the medium haul cost base needs to come down for that sector to at least break even.

It needs to be acknowledged that AF's ground processes are generally poor and overly bureaucratic, and are delivered by staff who are simply not cut out to be in customer pleasing roles.

I'd suggest if you really wish to see AF rise again, you initiate change from within on customer service issues and staff attitude, and not slate the airline on a.net at every opportunity.

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:07:11]


Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25205 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6953 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.


User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6902 times:
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Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The General public are not really aware of what is going on outside France. It's business as usual therefore to most AF customers.

Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.

You have been a little ahead of me Visount724 with your explanation but I would have stated this exactly like you!!! I know still many people that call "swiss"Swissair!!!


User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6867 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
I'd suggest if you really wish to see AF rise again, you initiate change from within on customer service issues and staff attitude, and not slate the airline on a.net at every opportunity.

I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/CONTRE...UT-AMEX-AIR-FRANCE/196230390429006

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:27:03]

[Edited 2012-01-20 15:27:46]

User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 6771 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 4):
I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.

So, let me understand this. Your anger against AF stems from the fact that your "status mile" of choice is no longer offered?

Aerlingus scrapped their entire FFP a few years ago. Was I pissed? Sure. Did I understand why they had to do it? Absolutely.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6574 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 5):
Aerlingus scrapped their entire FFP

I am sure this will be the trend for others.
Interesting.


User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 6549 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 6):

They have since re-introduced an FFP, so I would not assume that Flying blue will go.

AF need to run short haul like "la navette", they should also introduce BOB catering, which would be preferable to the awful free biscuit. I would value some high quality food for purchase as a passenger. The "free" service is bullshit, because it's crap.

They need to introduce a one way fare structure and take on the low costs, while maintaining a quality feel. It does work once you try to maintain yields and not strictly chase volume.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6292 times:

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.

Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment. Airlines and countries cannot be doing that anymore. The airlines aren't competitive and the nations can't afford it.

Plenty of other countries and airlines have gone through something similar and been better off for it. Sure some people's pride will likely get dinged in the process, but the result will be a more competitive and profitable airline.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4369 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4169 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6135 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 9):
Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.

Indeed, except perhaps for Aer Lingus, British Airways and Iberia, who were first to experience the onslaught of the Low Cost carriers. I'd suggest that EI's model, of lower cost short haul feeding into long haul is where it is going to be at in the medium term. (Basically, where most US legacy carriers are at now)



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Plenty of other countries and airlines have gone through something similar and been better off for it. Sure some people's pride will likely get dinged in the process, but the result will be a more competitive and profitable airline.

   Bang on. They'll be fine. As if there would ever not be an AF ! The French would tear up every rule in the EU book before that happened.

Quoting avek00 (Reply 9):
Right now, the Euro legacies are at about the same point in the deregulation cycle that US carriers went through from the late 1990s through 2005.

I think BA are way way ahead of the game compared to the others. They've simply had to be.

AF and LH have been living in cloud cuckoo land compared to BA.

Up until now that is....time to wake up and smell the low-cost middle easten coffee i'm afraid !!

  



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineNomik From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5586 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 7):
BOB catering

What is BOB?
Bring Own Beverage?


User currently offlinesantos From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 740 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5572 times:

Quoting Nomik (Reply 12):
What is BOB?

Buy On Board


User currently offlineIcarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 1):
The only place it is losing it's aura is here on a.net

I think you're right!
Since beginning of January, I fly to Manchester every monday morning and back to Paris every friday evening.
On monday, terminal E is packed with all the people in trnsit, coming from AF long haul to some places in Europe.
On friday evening, the flight is full of people connecting on the night bank (China, South America....)

For sure, it does not mean hat all this short flights are profitable. But seeing all the non french people flying with AF, I'm not sure this airline has lost his aura.

Quoting Nomik (Reply 4):
I have ever since AF cancelled "Status Miles" with AmEx.

I'm in Flying Blue and I have an Amex oo. Yes I've been a litle pissed off when I've seen this change.
But in these days of tough competition between airlines, I think it's difficult to keep a good balance between benefits for customers (miles & status) and the costs involved for he company.

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 7):
They need to introduce a one way fare structure and take on the low costs, while maintaining a quality feel. It does work once you try to maintain yields and not strictly chase volume.

One way fare structure would be a real improvement for sure!



Flying is amazing!
User currently offlineBeakerLTN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 292 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4494 times:

Quoting Icarus75 (Reply 14):
On monday, terminal E is packed with all the people in trnsit, coming from AF long haul to some places in Europe.
On friday evening, the flight is full of people connecting on the night bank (China, South America....)

For sure, it does not mean hat all this short flights are profitable. But seeing all the non french people flying with AF, I'm not sure this airline has lost his aura.

I was one of those 'non french' travelling through Terminal E a while back. I did it not because of the aura or the product, but because their J class was friggin' cheap.

(and the CDG>LHR breakfast was diabolical.. carrot sticks with cream cheese. - I just thought it was a French thing!)



300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
User currently offlineleonardoq From Australia, joined Nov 2011, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4304 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Having a flag carrier that is something other than a business, like a political or social tool, vanity project, etc. is exactly part of why Air France got to where they are at the moment. Airlines and countries cannot be doing that anymore. The airlines aren't competitive and the nations can't afford it.

Really? What is EK and Etihad, then? All of them sheik-owned...

[Edited 2012-01-21 06:21:33]


JJ, G3, QF, DJ, TG, LA, AR, EY, EK, LH, JQ, VY, TP, TZ, TR, AA
User currently offlineEurohub From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4139 times:

Quoting leonardoq (Reply 16):
Really? What is EK and Etihad, then? All of them sheik-owned...

I am sure that the sheiks are doing it for the reason that AF should be doing it - to make money; the sheiks have their 747SP's and the like for vanity projects... You can have an airline that acts as its country's flag carrier but you first have to respect the golden rule of business - to make a return on your investments!



Forget A vs B - Give me E or BAe any day of the week!
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 30
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3156 times:
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Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):
I want a flag-carrier to reflect a nation's achievements,contribution and pride.

You WANT?

Sorry. You may also want then to go back in time a few decades. The concept of a "flag carrier" is gone. Particularly nowadays that airlines are private, going concerns with shareholders (including the government) and the obligation to make money for said groups by the managers.

In fact, I am of the idea that certain countries can´t afford the luxury of maintaining an airline, yet they keep squandering resources on those money pits. Resources that could be used better elsewhere. Just outsource the air transport. I think Air Seychellles has seen the light in this regard and what they are doing is painful but the recognition of a reality.

With Europe´s more "pressing " issues at the moment, maintaining a "flag carrier" that is losing money and needs several improvements, just to reflect a "nation's achievements, contribution and pride." as you put it is ludicrous and a concept from a different era.

Right now those qualities need to be seen in the EU´s politicians, if they ever want to make it out of the black hole they are in.



MGGS
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2887 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2881 times:
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OPINION: for 2 decades I have flown Air France on and off. Perhaps for a total of 10 TATL and once to Brazil. I personally do not like Air France. I want to, but my experiences have always fallen short of expectations. And my #1 worst flying experience ever was on AF. I will probably avoid them from now on. But I personally believe the equity of FRANCE itself is of being the most sophisticated, fashionable and stylish country with what is often associated with the best food...one often expects the airline that best "represents" FRANCE would be an amazing FRENCH experience. IMHO, that high expectation puts AF in a tough spot.


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2991 posts, RR: 28
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

@Nomik (aka Chamonix - serial AF basher)

Get a life and give it a rest. You've started at least 5 AF-bashing threads in the last week. If you have a personal issue with AF, please spare the rest of us and take it up with them instead of creating thread after thread of mindless bashing.

[Edited 2012-01-21 08:55:53]


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 393 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2631 times:

I find it odd that pure AF bashing threads are among the last to get locked on these boards... they are rarely if ever thought provoking or valuable threads, but merely a bunch of people spewing off steam for personal reasons.
And, having flown AF over 600 times in my life, the vast majority have been pleasant experiences, whether up front or in the back. Can't say the same for BA or LH both of which I have flown over 50 times each, both front and back, the worst being BA (food is inedible garbage). But I will continue to fly LH and BA from time to time because their J fares are so unbelievably cheap from Paris to the US or Asia....


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2991 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 21):
I find it odd that pure AF bashing threads are among the last to get locked on these boards...

Unfortunately, this has caused Pihero, a long-time AF pilot who has always been one of the most knowledgeable and valuable contibutors to a.net, to resign a few days ago.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2566 times:

Quoting Nomik (Thread starter):


In past months,AF has axed so many routes and the savage cull is set to continue.

Maybe also look at all the other airlines which routes? LH canceled 3 destinations/flights and 1 temporary, postponed 1 flight (MUC-MEX), but has 1 new flight for S12. Air France canceled a few more destinations/flights (5/6 if I'm not mistaken), 1 temporary suspension and starts only 1 new flight (Paris - Wuhan). Thus, compared to its peer (LH) it's worse, but to say they axed "so many" (though if you consider 1 normal you're correct.


User currently offlineAquila3 From Italy, joined Nov 2010, 262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
Exactly. 99% of people outside Switzerland also have no idea that LX is a different carrier than the bankrupt and defunct Swissair, and in fact often still call LX Swissair.

For the very few thousands of meters that keep me outside of Switzerland, count me among them.
However, they delivered an excellent product before and they continue do it now, with all the due differences accounted.
Regarding AF, their kind of service undoubtedly contribute to the image that I , as a foreigner, have of France. The same would be if France had bumpy and dirty highways (that is NOT the case) , even if privately owned. I let to Frenchmen decide if they are satisfied with it or not. On my part, I stand trying to avoid AF, and this sadly means sometimes to avoid France because of this.



chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
25 mozart : Not sure What you mean by "aura" and I confirm that reading your posts you seem to have an ire against AF. Having said that I do disagree with most ot
26 BMI727 : Those airlines are run an awful lot like businesses. And there used to be a time when countries like France, Greece and India could afford to heavily
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