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Estonian Air Leaves Bombardier For Embraer  
User currently offlineSkytte From Estonia, joined Dec 2006, 7 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12152 times:

Estonian Air has received permission from the Estonian ministry of economy to replace new Bombardier CRJ 900 NextGen aircraft the airline acquired recently with aircraft built by Embraer.

It has been less than a year since the airline took delivery of the CRJ 900NGs as a replacement aircraft for its SAAB turboprop aircraft. The airline had announced that it was in negotiations with Bombardier for a further purchase of three aircraft as well.

However, according to press reports, negotiations were stalled over pricing and the airline looked towards Embraer to supply the aircraft it requires.

The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft from an undisclosed European airline to replace the CRJ 900NGs as a stop gap measure. The airline then intends to take delivery as soon as possible of three Embraer 190s directly from the manufacturer.

Link: http://www.rjet.ca/blog/2012/01/20/e...and-leaves-bombardier-for-embraer/

46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHELyes From Finland, joined Oct 2010, 925 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11715 times:

Cool to see Embraers in Estonian colors, will look good! Probably will see those at some regional airports in Finland as OV is opening new routes.

User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 11689 times:

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft from an undisclosed European airline

Maybe Alitalia?
Their EMB170 are leaving the fleet.


User currently offlineshanxz From Singapore, joined Apr 2006, 243 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11456 times:

Quoting HELyes (Reply 1):
Cool to see Embraers in Estonian colors, will look good! Probably will see those at some regional airports in Finland as OV is opening new routes.

You may actually not see the Embraers in Estonian Colors - they're likely to go for a new livery soon too!



Airlines are in the service business, not transport. Brand matters...
User currently offlineBasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1325 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11426 times:

It took them years to get these CRJ's and now they're finally here they'll dump them again? Very weird if you ask me...


'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2454 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11360 times:

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
It has been less than a year since the airline took delivery of the CRJ 900NGs as a replacement aircraft for its SAAB turboprop aircraft

How is the CR9 an SF3 replacement? I have just been to TLL and both SF3's are active, the CR9 is way too much aircraft for the short domestic flights they do plus LED & occasional HEL - did the Saab's used to go further afield?

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
However, according to press reports, negotiations were stalled over pricing

The last CR9 ACD has only just been delivered. With the lack of orders at BBD these days, I would have thought they would do everything they could to retain a client, seems very strange indeed.

There is an ex Cirrus 170 and a couple of other ex Team LH (Eurowings??) ERJ's available, think they are parked at EXT. Think there are a couple of ex Paramount India frames available there too.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6433 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 11353 times:

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
...replace new Bombardier CRJ 900 NextGen aircraft the airline acquired recently...

Estonian cannot have been too happy with the CRJ 900 as they dump them after barely one year. In fact the last one was delivered from BBD earlier this week!

BTW, weren't those CRJ 900s part of the SAS "compensation" when they grounded and exposed off their Q400 fleet four years ago and bought a load of CRJ 900? If memory serves me well, then Estonian Air was, and still is, partly owned by SAS.

Is there another taker of those almost brand new 900s? SAS?

Even if SAS is famous for having almost every type of airliner in their fleet, then I think that this is first time to see an Embraer even partially within the SAS Group.

They talk about an original plan to acquire up to seven CRJ 900, which is now converted to E-jets. That probably means that the two old classic 737s are pretty soon up for retirement? (one -300 and one -500).



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineSkytte From Estonia, joined Dec 2006, 7 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11239 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
How is the CR9 an SF3 replacement? I have just been to TLL and both SF3's are active, the CR9 is way too much aircraft for the short domestic flights they do plus LED & occasional HEL - did the Saab's used to go further afield?

Indeed OV is replacing them soon. They we're looking for a fast turboprop, but eventually it hasn't turned to anything. A couple of weeks ago there was a "demo" Saab 2000 standing in TLL.

Las news are that SF34, Q900 and B733/5 are replaced by E170 and E190. The new CEO of OV finn Tero Taskila is building up some new strategy, focusing for Scandinavian regional airports to develop more transit traffic between Estonian Air’s Eastern and Western destinations.


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 10956 times:
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Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
weren't those CRJ 900s part of the SAS "compensation" when they grounded and exposed off their Q400 fleet four years ago and bought a load of CRJ 900

Then perhaps the three CR9s for Estonian were dirt cheap as they were part of a big package. But when Estonian on their own started negotiations for more CR9, BBD wanted more realistic prices. It is probably just as expensive to build three new CR9 as 12, so volume discount is not offered for only three aircraft...

A shame if three brand-new CR9 are to be parked. Could Pluna or Eurowings be interested in these?

I assume the E170 and E190 aircraft are already built and flying, so they will be much cheaper to add to the fleet.



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10756 times:
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I thought that the CASM of the ERJ170 was much higher than the CASM of the CRJ900NG. Except for range (do they really need longer range routes???) or passenger comfort (larger cabin), I cannot come up with a plausible reason to replace CRJ900NG with ERJ170.

BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Anyway, the Estonian livery looks stunning so I look forward to seeing the Embraers in Estonian livery!


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26954 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10753 times:

Quoting Skytte (Thread starter):
The airline has announced that it will be leasing three Embraer 170 aircraft

Good news indeed cant wait to see the E Jet in their livery .


User currently offlineCRJ900X From Canada, joined Dec 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10676 times:

It seems like a huge waste of money to switch over the fleet to Embraer. The costs associated with pilot training, spare parts and maintenance seems like it would be prohibitively high for Estonian. I wonder if Embraer will take the 3 CRJ900 NextGen's and sell them onwards.

Although Bombardier is in need of new orders, they obviously reviewed the offer that Estonian wanted for additional CR9's and decided that the offer was not worth them building the aircraft.

I have a feeling that we will see additional CRJ900 NextGen orders come to pass in descent numbers for the CRJ family this year!

Cheers,
CRJ900X


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 10613 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 10):
Good news indeed cant wait to see the E Jet in their livery .

Probably in their *new* livery. Their current one looks awesome, I hope they won't disappoint.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Add LH and LO to the list. But BE seems to love them (although they are sardine-can configured - 88 seats).


User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2178 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9743 times:
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I'm surprised BBD didn't offer Estonian the four CRJ900s sitting in Canada waiting for new assignments - the three ex-AtlasJet and one ex-Macedonian aircraft. They are not NextGen but are still fairly new and with only 8,000-10,000 cycles. I'm sure that would be a lot cheaper for Estonian instead of buying new?


Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineTupolevTu154 From Germany, joined Aug 2004, 2182 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9622 times:

I flew on one of their CRJ's a few days ago between TLL and ARN. They also use them on their further routes to AMS and LGW . I'd imagine those would be quite cramped on a 2.5 hour full flight.

I love their scheme, definately in my top 3. I'd hate to see it change!



Atheists - Winning since 33 A.D.
User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8929 times:

Quoting LIPZ (Reply 2):
Maybe Alitalia?
Their EMB170 are leaving the fleet.

Probably not, Alitalia's E70s should go to Air France Régional if I remember correctly.


User currently offlineEuroWings From UK - England, joined Sep 2011, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 8756 times:

Quoting TupolevTu154 (Reply 14):
I flew on one of their CRJ's a few days ago between TLL and ARN. They also use them on their further routes to AMS and LGW . I'd imagine those would be quite cramped on a 2.5 hour full flight.

I've done a 2h 40m flight on a CRJ900 with the seat next to me occupied and I thought it was quite comfortable actually.

It's a shame, they looked stunning in Estonian Air's livery. E-jets are great but they are rather generic (dare I say boring!) and in Europe at least, they are becoming rather common.


User currently offlinejfidler From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 355 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7982 times:

I think this article sheds more light on the decision:

"Estonian Air was originally expecting to acquire three new planes in addition to its existing Bombardiers. However, Bombardier imposed additional conditions that would have required the state owner to inject more capital into the carrier."

Source: http://news.err.ee/Economy/a11415ed-3d49-4043-a97a-9539891dfff5

So I'm thinking Bombardier looked at OV's financials and decided it was too much of a risk without the company being better capitalized, but the Estonian government didn't want to inject any more money. Then Embraer comes in with a better deal with less onerous requirements.


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1688 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7819 times:

Very surprising switch indeed !!!

It must cost OV an arm-n-leg for this competitive move (crew/maintenance/training).

Hope the E70/E90 in OV's new colours looks as smashing as their current one on the CR9's...

Makes it even more urgent for me to fly to beautiful TLL this Summer, before it's all 'good-bye' to the Bombardier...

Just wonder who will be taking up these aircraft: SK ?



don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17066 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7582 times:

Anyone know for how long they will be flying the SF340s?


Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlinekonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 525 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 7546 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 12):
Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 9):
BTW. Also why do airlines get rid of their ERJ170 (AZ, AY e.g.)?

Add LH and LO to the list. But BE seems to love them (although they are sardine-can configured - 88 seats).

Because they are switching to larger versions: EMB-175, -190, -195 ?


User currently offlinedk001 From Ireland, joined Dec 2003, 40 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7250 times:

Might Finnair be the source of the ERJ-170 Aircraft, the seem to lease those model aircraft out a lot.

3 Already leased out 2 * Kenya Airways, 1 * Peoples ViennaLine.


User currently offlineSKAirbus From Norway, joined Oct 2007, 1711 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6977 times:

I imagine SAS will take the CRJs as it was part of their original order.

They could replace some MD8X on thinner routes, further accelerating the fleet replacement program.

Seems they are taking a leaf out of SAS' book.. Dumping an entire fleet of relatively new aircraft. Then again SAS' excuse was a little more plausible.



Next Flights: LHR-OSL (319-BA), OSL-LHR (319-BA), LHR-IAH (744-BA), MSY-LGA (319-DL), JFK-LHR (744-BA)
User currently offlinesomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3370 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
Estonian cannot have been too happy with the CRJ 900 as they dump them after barely one year. In fact the last one was delivered from BBD earlier this week!

It's nothing to do with being happy or not, but the fact that they can't afford more of them, and that Bombardier won't finance them

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 6):
Even if SAS is famous for having almost every type of airliner in their fleet, then I think that this is first time to see an Embraer even partially within the SAS Group.

OV is no longer part of the SAS Group


User currently offlineteme82 From Finland, joined Mar 2007, 1511 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6679 times:
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Quoting dk001 (Reply 21):
Might Finnair be the source of the ERJ-170 Aircraft, the seem to lease those model aircraft out a lot.

Yeah that thought was on my mid too...



Flying high and low
25 prebennorholm : SAS still holds a 10% stake in OV. The recently sold 39% to the Estonian government, which holds the remaining 90%.
26 someone83 : Yes, which means they no longer part of the SAS group, as SAS only has a small financial investment in OV, which they haven't been able to sell yet
27 Skytte : That's right, only one 737 is still in the fleet - ES-ABL and Finnair is indeed one of the options for a E170.
28 JoeCanuck : It would be interesting to know the story of financing on this move. It may just be Emb willing to take a chance on the airline that BBD wasn't willin
29 vasu : Any ideas when the new livery is due? I also love the current one... got to be one of the best out there in my opinion! Let's hope they don't "do a Fi
30 traveler_7 : Strange thing is, that OV's home page is silent about any possible changes. By the way article in Wikipedia talks about 4 EMB 190 in order... . Is it
31 Skytte : One of the reasons was that Bombardier imposed additional conditions that would have required the state owner to inject more capital into the carrier
32 JoeCanuck : Do you know of any particular financial problems with the airline that might have scared BBD away?
33 traveler_7 : Not necessarily problems, it may be that BBD expect that company generates profit or some other conditions should be satisfied. Do not forget that ov
34 teme82 : This came in today! https://newsclient.omxgroup.com/cdsPublic/viewDisclosure.action?disclosureId=488849&lang=en
35 QF340500 : seems like a lot of money wasted for the purchase of the CRJ, and now that... well... they must have a lot of liquidity then... or is it another easte
36 Post contains links Skytte : Press release: http://estonian-air.ee/en/service/ne...to-support-its-long-term-strategy/
37 Treg : There have been some inaccuracies in this thread. CRJ-s were purchased while OV belonged to SAS. They were supposed to replace and complement 733/735
38 traveler_7 : There were some rumors that Saabs may be replaced by ATRs.
39 flyingAY : AY has also the E190, which according to them, has almost similar operating cost, but contains some 20 seats more. OV getting the E170s from AY came
40 B747forever : How accurate are those rumours? Will they replace the Saabs by June?
41 Post contains images traveler_7 : If it would be accurate information I would not call it rumors . It was mentioned few times in local press, could not find link now. It is difficult
42 Treg : Now it is official: the new logo, livery and brand will be unveiled tomorrow, Friday (10/02/2012).
43 traveler_7 : what is your source?
44 eicvd : On wikipedia it states OV have ERJ-175's on order aswell as the 170's & 190's, any truth in that?
45 traveler_7 : ERJ-170 are leased from AY and will arrive in the and of this month. "News" section of OV homepage mentions mixed order of 175's and 190's.
46 Post contains links Treg : http://www.e24.ee/733680/estonian-air-avaldab-homme-uue-kujunduse/ (In Estonian only)[Edited 2012-02-09 12:15:52]
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