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Can We Soon See Exciting New F, J & Y Products?  
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2866 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8121 times:
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Over the past decade, or less, we have seen new designs for First Class, Business Class and even in economy or "enhanced" economy. In the past 10 years we have seen cabins that surpass the best versions of First Class. We saw airlines like PM UNITED install a top notch First Class and America's first horizontal flat business class seat, even a simple E+ that is very popular. Swiss went from one of the worst business class seats (IMHO) to one of the skies most roomy flat seats with nobody next to you but with a desk instead--along with a new "airbed" technology. How exciting!? I just wish I could get into one!

So, while their are some majors who haven't even fixed their angled lie flats yet, what could possibly be next? A great Y? If so, how? Or in the fight to beat the Jone's will we see new concepts on future 787's, 777's, A350's, 747-8i and A380's? Or have we seen the best for another decade or more?

Will we see new and exciting hard products on narrow bodies?


The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9511 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8090 times:

I think we will see first class cabins continue to shrink and go away except for some very prestigious routes. Corporate policies nowadays have left first class to wealthy individuals, top level executives and owners of small businesses.

Business class will continue to go more upscale and completely replace business class on 90% of long haul routes. I also think that premium economy will become more common. It will be more than just extra legroom, but have enhanced service and seat width.

I also think that premium economy cabins will be expanded to most routes on most airlines and business classes will eventually start to shrink as people start to feel that premium economy is good enough to eat/work/sleep on long haul flights and that the extra features in business class that make it such an experience do not warrant the cost.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
what could possibly be next? A great Y? If so, how?

I doubt there will be a great Y. It's the price driven class, where seating density is king. The majority of the passengers know the flight will be very uncomfortable and it is something that has to be endured to get to the destination. The only perks are ones that don't take up space such as PTVs and liquor. Seats have only trended towards getting smaller industry wide in economy.

The only great Y products aren't really economy in my opinion. Premium economy is a new name for business class. Some airlines have premium economy products that have seats with the same dimension as business class was 20 years ago. As first class fades and business class becomes the new first, premium economy fills the gap for people who don't want to spend top dollar and get extravagant experiences while flying but rather want to be a bit more comfortable than economy.

The only innovative Y product I have seen is the skycouch on Air New Zealand. It is an economy product that people are willing to pay more for, especially families that appreciate having more "work space" with young kids.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):

Will we see new and exciting hard products on narrow bodies?

There might be some more enhanced business class products as the 737 and A320 continue to see range increases with their new derivatives. We might see more airlines going towards what used to be the traditional business class of 50'' pitch.

[Edited 2012-01-21 21:36:48]

[Edited 2012-01-21 21:40:00]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 8041 times:

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
So, while their are some majors who haven't even fixed their angled lie flats yet, what could possibly be next?

I'd say more privacy and better use of space. Also more refinement and service in business as fewer and fewer airlines will offer first class, especially on all routes.

Quoting VC10er (Thread starter):
A great Y? If so, how?

Coach class is a commodity. It's like gas stations. They all advertise that their gas has this chemical and that additive, but at the end of the day your car runs identically for all intents and purposes and you go fill up at the place with the best price.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecloudboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 807 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7404 times:

Airlines hardly are operated on a purely logical level, and changes are often effected not by customer demands but by stock market drivers, business trends, and "conventional wisdom". Thus, the going trend in economy classes is in minimalism - providing the least product you can for the greatest price. There's not really much more efficiency to gain from economy seats, and certainly not much that is going to be seen as a bonus for the passenger. "Conventional Wisdom" dictates that price alone is the differentiating factor for passengers whether that is actually true or not, and so it is very hard for an airline to bring itself to better its coach product. Until there is another mode of transportation that has the potential to take away passengers develops, or a completely new airline without the baggage of conventional airline thought comes along, there will be no impetus to change. Given that such an airline is highly unlikely to get funding from the banks or stock market, I don't see any coach changes coming soon.

Economy Plus and Premium Economy will grow, however. they have already proven to be profitable to the airlines. SO what I do see as a trend is the comback of the 3 class airline, with a smaller economy section, a larger premium economy which will secretly be a scaled back and cheaper business product, and a business class which again will be a scaled back first class product. If the economy plus and premium economy products are scaled back sufficiently that costs can be kept low enough, what you will see is a limited supply of economy seats at really low prices, while those who are stuck buying last minute or inflexible time and routing tickets instead being forced into economy plus (and price plussed) tickets.



"Six becoming three doesn't create more Americans that want to fly." -Adam Pilarski
User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7319 times:

More legroom in Y by somehow going deeper under the seat in front of you.
Clear leg & knee space without touching the seat that blocks your view.
This position must be changeable of course.

A possibility to install (suspend) your own (standard size) tablet in a bracket in the seat in front of you on very tight planes--> Brazilian 3 hour domestic flights scream to mind. This would allow you to do some work without having your own laptop in your stomach if the person in front of you reclines! It wouldn't take long before manufacturers like Apple and Samsung will offer gamepad's for inflight entertainment etc.
Plastic brackets are cheap and easily certified, no??

Laptop charging points in Y please!

Just some ideas; my brilliant mind is overheating now so I better give it a rest.

No Tax On Rotax



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9511 posts, RR: 52
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7210 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 4):

A possibility to install (suspend) your own (standard size) tablet in a bracket in the seat in front of you on very tight planes--> Brazilian 3 hour domestic flights scream to mind. This would allow you to do some work without having your own laptop in your stomach if the person in front of you reclines! It wouldn't take long before manufacturers like Apple and Samsung will offer gamepad's for inflight entertainment etc.
Plastic brackets are cheap and easily certified, no??

Airlines don't take kindly to passengers inserting things into the seats to stop them from reclining. There are a few products out there that are designed to prevent the person in front from reclining. Airlines really do not like these since the person will think the seat is jammed and push harder which can break the seat. Using such things is going to only lead to trouble. Some airlines state on their website or magazine that such items are specifically prohibited.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7107 times:

Roseflyer,

We're having a mild misunderstanding here; aplogies for not expressing myself clearly.

1) I'm astonished that people would sabotage airline's equipment.

2) The bracket I'm talking about is something to suspend your I-pad with; like some sort of IFE.
So if the person in front of you reclines; you could still work and not have your table all the way out; to find that your screen is at an undesirable angle regardless.

An universal bracket in the headrest in front of you!

I did not try to suggest some kind of evil "seat sabotage"!!

Cheers!

No Tax On Rotax



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlinealaskaqantas From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 905 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

Hi,

some cool ideas are shown here:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/five-brillia...=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper

you can search for the companies that make these seats and find some more pics and info.

~Cheers-
~~Kyle



to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3195 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

Okay, bear with me here while I play devil’s advocate.

Virgin Atlantic announces the end of Economy! All seating will be Y+ at the back of the plane.
They will charge the same price as BA,AA UA, etc do for Y on the same routes they fly.
Over a 3 yr period would they fill their planes and make a profit?
Just a thought outside the box.



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24907 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6505 times:

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 8):
Okay, bear with me here while I play devil’s advocate.

Virgin Atlantic announces the end of Economy! All seating will be Y+ at the back of the plane.
They will charge the same price as BA,AA UA, etc do for Y on the same routes they fly.
Over a 3 yr period would they fill their planes and make a profit?

No, because 99% of Y class passengers book only on the basis of price and have no idea of the differences in seating from one carrier to another, which is why some 777 operators don't seem to have a major problem with their cramped 10-abreast configurations while many others have much more civilized 9-abreast layouts.

It's been proven many times in the past (e.g. AA's "more room in Coach" and a similar TWA program) when they removed Y seats from all their aircraft, that it doesn't work. Not enough passengers are willing to pay more for more spacious seating. And if the carrier can't charge more, they are sacrificing revenue compared to their competitors. They also have to spend a lot of money on advertising which is largely wasted.

With Y class now largely a commodity, there is no incentive to improve the product. As long as people book primarily on the basis of price you want to cram in as many seats as possible so any significant changes are unlikely, apart from the current trend to replace old Y class seats with new lightweight, thin-back seats which permits more seats to be installed at less seat pitch withough reducing (and in some cases slightly increasing) effective seating space.

[Edited 2012-01-22 11:40:48]

[Edited 2012-01-22 11:42:05]

User currently offlineN243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Coach class is a commodity. It's like gas stations. They all advertise that their gas has this chemical and that additive, but at the end of the day your car runs identically for all intents and purposes and you go fill up at the place with the best price.

This is probably the best way I've seen it explained. Once consumers actually start not only noticing but caring about small improvements one carrier offers in Y (such as AVOD/Wi-Fi, slightly better seat pitch, newer planes/interiors, better food on long routes, etc.) then it may change. But for now, there's really not much incentive for airlines to compete on anything besides price.

I agree that F will gradually go away or shrink dramatically, and J will become the new standard for premium travel. I also see more airlines shying away from installing complicated, heavy and limited in-seat AVOD in favor of offering Wi-Fi and streaming media for people to use on their own devices in the future.



B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
User currently offlineblink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5480 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6028 times:

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 6):

2) The bracket I'm talking about is something to suspend your I-pad with; like some sort of IFE.
So if the person in front of you reclines; you could still work and not have your table all the way out; to find that your screen is at an undesirable angle regardless.

On Australian Business Traveller's feature on futuristic airplane cabins, there's an economy concept that features a simple lip in the tray table's edge designed to hold an Ipad between the tray table and the seat. A simple, but nonetheless, neat innovation that could probably become common on future aircraft models. Alaskaqantas' link will take you to an illustration.

As for me, I'm simply waiting for the day when PTV boxes become smaller or disappear altogether(and I know airlines are too as this is added weight). As it is, the PTV, in a sense, is a death kiss depending where you're sitting. PTVs are great, but the box is a major legroom hindrance if you're stuck with it on a lengthy flight.



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

Quoting blink182 (Reply 11):
On Australian Business Traveller's feature on futuristic airplane cabins, there's an economy concept that features a simple lip in the tray table's edge designed to hold an Ipad between the tray table and the seat. A simple, but nonetheless, neat innovation that could probably become common on future aircraft models. Alaskaqantas' link will take you to an illustration.

I rest my case!
Bummer they used MY idea without consulting me though!

Cheers,
No Tax On Rotax



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlineBHXDTW From Eritrea, joined Feb 2005, 1090 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 5828 times:

.... I dont think people on here give the flying public enough credit.

Not everyone booking a Y class ticket is thinking 'cost' ... Of course a lot of people do, but flying is no longer a luxury. People are becoming more and more airline savvy.

Its ok for us to assume that 'everyone else' goes on cost alone because they probably don't know the difference between a flight on SQ and a flight on SK (random selection), whereas we do... or if they're flying on a DL TATL 757 or a DL 764... However, a lot of people DO know the difference. People are flying more and becoming used to expecting something.

Why do you think we have websites like seatguru and the skytrax airline ranking system. People want to know what they're going to get for their money. And another thing about all this 'people only booking the cheapest prices' ... whilst that might be correct in a lot of circumstances, sometimes the cost difference between airlines isnt THAT great... and if you have your choice between an airline that you know is fairly basic in their offering compared to an airline that you have heard offers great service or inflight product... You know people will choose the better of the 2... again thats why websites like seatguru et al exist.... people want to know what they're buying.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24907 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
Why do you think we have websites like seatguru and the skytrax airline ranking system. People want to know what they're going to get for their money.

I doubt 1 in 100 Y class passengers is even aware those types of sites exist.

As mentioned previously, all carriers know how much money AA spent to remove seats from all their aircraft in 2000 only to put them all back in again about 5 years later. I doubt anyone will repeat that mistake, apart from limited efforts like expanding Y+ where they often can generate enough additional revenue to cover the lost seats.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFUFxcKth2g

TWA's equivalent effort a few years earlier was no more successful than AA's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XuksUYX7Jg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIkofOxf_0s


User currently offlinejetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5072 times:

Quoting BHXDTW (Reply 13):
Why do you think we have websites like seatguru and the skytrax airline ranking system.

It amazes me how many people show up to the airport to check in with me without even knowing their baggage allowance, I sincerely doubt they are researching things like their seat on Seatguru.



Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2949 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4430 times:

I don't think the next raft of big advancements will be overly clear to the travelling public...

The next ten years will be about reducing the cost and weight of the product concepts that exist today, and about making air travel viable with the rising price of oil. That's not to say that there will continue to be improvements -- there will. But they will be cosmetic changes, and styling shifts more than anything radical (like herringbone, staggered J class etc).

I'd expect the weight of the average J class seat to be halved in the next ten years... I'd expect weight to be shed from the IFE systems (wireless?)... I'm also hoping that airlines start to adopt better padding materials, especially in Y.


User currently offlinedelimit From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1504 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4206 times:

Given UA's success with Economy Plus, and now Delta's with Economy Comfort, I think there's now objective evidence that some people will in fact pay more for more space. The trick comes with figuring out how to package the extras and how much to charge for them.
I know I personally will happily shell out for it everytime it is available.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7172 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

I think as qf002 said that the focus will be on weight, and also the onus going back on the passenger to entertain themselves via wifi, usb plug and play tablet stuff. I also expect the focus to continue to shift towards the economy cabins, as increasingly it is playing a healthy part of a flight's profitability, not business class.

My dream of returning to the configurations/pitches of the 70s is likely to stay that unless government legislation forces their hand.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 16):
I'd expect weight to be shed from the IFE systems (wireless?)

IFE systems should begin to go away completely and be replaced with wifi. Why should airlines fly all of the equipment around and have to maintain and buy all of it?

And the best AVOD systems might have what? A couple hundred movies and TV shows? It would be better to just be able to use a laptop or tablet and watch whatever I want.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinezkncj From New Zealand, joined Nov 2005, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1264461343/428/3262428.jpg

It has taken Y this along to get this fair, I wouldn't say its going to improve more than this in the next 20yearrs

[Edited 2012-01-22 18:59:29]

User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3139 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3394 times:

Quoting alaskaqantas (Reply 7):
some cool ideas are shown here:
http://www.ausbt.com.au/five-brillia...ipper

Brilliant, thanks for sharing the link. I love the creativity of thought shown here. Have often thought capsule style hotel beds were a good idea for planes.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3338 times:
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Ok, I was hoping for some dreamers here!  

When I started flying heavily for business in 1995, I flew in business class on a 767 or a 747. About 1996 I made a friend with a guy who worked at United and he got me into First Class from JFK to NRT. I was in seat 1A. It was a giant grey fabric seat on a Laz-I-Boy scale. When I got to my seat I had to pinch myself. It was extremely comfortable and miles better than anything else I had experienced. The deeply cushioned leg rest shot out straight and the back reclined way back- but not flat. It didn't even occur to me that a seat could ever actually go "flat". The service was spectacular. Then UA got better and more ergonomic seats but not a huge leap. Then came beds in First Class on BA...WOW! Then in business! Then Virgin's stunning seats (now dated) The Asian carriers went the next step...I flew SQ in an angled lie flat that looked very posh. Today, their are so many interesting and comfortable seats with breathtaking industrial design inside aircraft that have never looked more beautiful inside. For me, if I'm not flying in economy on TAM or United or American - the glamour is still there. When I fly in J or F I feel very lucky and very glamourous.

So rather than focus on the "pack 'em in tight" need of today, where can our dreams take us? Someone, some airline will break with the pack and do something to set themselves apart. Let's go beyond the next decade, perhaps I limited the conversation by saying "decade".



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting VC10er (Reply 22):
Someone, some airline will break with the pack and do something to set themselves apart.

NetJets.

Honestly, I think I have to draw another parallel to the auto industry. What you see at the interior shows and from manufacturers are like concept cars. Some look a mostly like what the public will get even though everything under the skin ends up different and some are almost complete flights of fantasy with only a few odds and ends making it to consumers. It's easy to put together light shows and brochures about the next quantum leap, but reality is more evolution than revolution.

[Edited 2012-01-22 19:45:51]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineVC10er From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 2866 posts, RR: 10
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3258 times:
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Quoting alaskaqantas (Reply 7):

Finally, I was able to open the link. Amazing ideas. I am sure with the right amount of money and research something here could make today's products look as old as my 1996 United First Seat!



The world is missing love, let's use our flights to spread it!
25 VC10er : Can the same spender for SQ First, make it from SIN to NYC with NetJets anytime soon? Wouldn't NetJets need a very long range jet? Could that be some
26 Post contains images blink182 : The sad thing is that in the US, I think AA's MRTC was an earnest effort on AA's part to do "break with the pack" (and compete with UA's then new Eco
27 BMI727 : Probably not, but private charters make sense for a lot of flying. Sure better premium offerings would be nice, but it gets to the point where such t
28 Post contains images readytotaxi : We do need more dreamers.
29 VC10er : The seat and bunk think is certainly the beginning of an idea, I don't really do a back flip over that drawing - first the colors are exactly those o
30 cloudboy : Before getting all excited over these neat double-decker seats, remember that planes are as much at a loss for space vertically as they are horizontal
31 slinky09 : When you see LH's F offering with a seat and a bunk that gives some idea of the possiblities, I also recall some suggestions that the space above the
32 ytz : The biggest innovation I want to see is more airlines adopting Economy Plus for medium and long haul. I get that most economy pax don't want to pay mo
33 cslusarc : I think the next big thing is widespread adoption of the "Premium Economy" cabin. BA and VS have previously discussed that their W-class cabins earn t
34 FriendlySkies : So in other words.... Current: First/Business/Premium Economy/Economy Future: Business (first)/Premium Economy (business)/Economy
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