Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
VS Opposition To IAG /BD Acquisition Question.  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7754 times:

In the last few days I've read in the press that one of VS's main concerns with BA/BD is to quote ...

""Virgin believes UK authorities should also look into the proposed purchase as it will have a considerable impact on domestic flights, particularly overlapping routes such as services between Heathrow and Scotland.""

Seeing as they have never been a domestic carrier what concern is it of theirs ?

Or...are they just frustrated at losing feed into their long-haul network ?

This seems far more likely than ""feigning"" any unfounded worry for the domestic UK traveller.

Indeed why have they never considered a UK domestic operation of their own to provide competition and to support their inter-continental ops. Instead of just focusing on the ""juicier"" element to running an airline from a route perspective ?

One such article below...

http://www.skyport-heathrow.co.uk/20...irgin-urge-uk-competition-reg.html


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
111 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19204 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
why have they never considered a UK domestic operation of their own to provide competition and to support their inter-continental ops

Lack of slots and BA's short-haul routes from LHR (domestic/European) are often fairly poorly performing vis-a-vis its long-haul. Against this, and with much domestic competition (trains, car, EZY), you'd need to be fairly mad to do what you suggest.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlinepoLOT From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2158 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7674 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
Seeing as they have never been a domestic carrier what concern is it of theirs ?

Or...are they just frustrated at losing feed into their long-haul network ?

This seems far more likely than ""feigning"" any unfounded worry for the domestic UK traveller.

They are just trying anything possible to stop the deal because they don't want (strong and direct) competitors to get more slots. Complaining instead of being proactive has been VS's MO for a while now. I doubt they really care all that much about the UK domestic market.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7635 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1):
Lack of slots and BA's short-haul routes from LHR (domestic/European) are often fairly poorly performing vis-a-vis its long-haul. Against this, and with much domestic competition (trains, car, EZY), you'd need to be fairly mad to do what you suggest.

So what's their beef then ?

BD's gone bust, nobody else want's to do it, from LHR anyway.

VS don't have the logistical clout to make BD work for themselves. (And everyone knows it)

The deal is the best outcome for all concerned and provides the opportunity for desperately needed route expansion with all the benefits that entails.

Meanwhile the clock is ticking, jobs are on the line and they intend to slow down the completion process ?



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7589 times:

I think this more a tactical move by VS to get more slots by making the regulators sweat a bit. Branson can compete domestically with Virgin Trains, they can't be getting much feed off BD at the moment given that its few domestic routes are mostly being flown with 49 seat Embraers, the European routes are mostly point to point and the mid haul services are pretty niche. VS would be better off talking to other Euro carriers for feed.

User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7540 times:

BD would feed more into BA longhaul and increase the already stiff competition VS faces on its' network. Those flying BD domestically have the distinct possibility to fly VS longhaul (i.e. EDI -LHR on BD and LHR-NYC on VS) Don't forget also that BD and VS codeshare

With BA capturing the domestic market, people will book BA longhaul too - price integration into one convenient ticket.

Independent carriers in the UK allow VS some level of market segment. Of course, the slots issue is also at play.



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7525 times:

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 4):
I think this more a tactical move by VS to get more slots by making the regulators sweat a bit

Well yes but there seems to be a big grey area surrounding VS and slots...do they actually want alot of slots or just a couple ? Nobody seems to know whether they are currently 'leasing' slots or not ?

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 4):
they can't be getting much feed off BD at the moment

Apart from missing out on increasing its presence at Heathrow, where Virgin has just 3% of the airport's slots, the carrier counts on BMI to feed about 25% of trans-Atlantic traffic through a code-sharing agreement that might now be terminated.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...70204464404577113802080663444.html



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinerichardw From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 3749 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7521 times:

I'm not sure what the regulator can actually do.

Can they enforce that 2 return flights per day must be operated between BHD/DUB/EDI/GLA/MAN and LHR, by a non-BA airline, without any One World codes?

[Edited 2012-01-22 06:42:46]

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7469 times:

Quoting richardw (Reply 7):
Can they enforce that 2 return flights per day must be operated between BHD/DUB/EDI/GLA/MAN and LHR, by a non-BA airline, without any One World codes?

Maybe it should be the enforced resposibilty of any other surviving UK based airline at the airport.

After all - VS benefits ""greatly"" by exploiting the most lucrative routes at LHR maybe they should be more willing to recognise and appreciate this fact by providing the nation with an alternative domestically from LHR too.

Seeing as they are so concerned for our well-being !!

Seems fair to me.

Can't get the slots ? Others have managed.

[Edited 2012-01-22 06:54:59]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7443 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
Apart from missing out on increasing its presence at Heathrow, where Virgin has just 3% of the airport's slots, the carrier counts on BMI to feed about 25% of trans-Atlantic traffic through a code-sharing agreement that might now be terminated

I think that this is the crux of the problem. Perhaps VS can use a few more slots and expand with their new aircraft but it is the feed that they are really sore about.



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7228 times:

And once again VS start to throw their toys out of the pram... and once again, nothing comes of it other than just inconveniencing others... remember them complaining about the BA world tails? Did that hurt BA much? Did it balls, they just painted over them, AA/BA joint venture - just slowed it down, same thing will happen here.

Maybe if VS spent the time, effort and money that they do moaning about BA on improving their offering and actually becoming a decent airline again (like they used to be) rather than offering shoddy crew, food and a half-decent product (give me a BA club world seat anytime over the VS angled seat).

From my experience flying BD between MAN and LHR many times (onward to RUH), I can tell you now, I only once saw people connecting from VS (they had VS boarding passes) at LHR waiting by the gate for MAN so that sort of tells you how much of a "feed" they really get. Even more so when you look at the long list of codeshares on those BD domestic flights, VS is a drop in the water...

Plus if they really wanted slots, they wouldn't be leasing them out to other airlines and they'd have bought them when there were several opportunities (remember when BA got 6 new slots, VS made a bit of a fuss afterwards, but no one saw them try to buy them!)


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7177 times:

With regards to the feed VS get at LHR, they actually get more from BA than any other. On one hand not surprising given the size of BA's operation. But it does go against the perception of the two airlines as arch enemies!

BA buying BMI was probably the best outcome. LH weren't going to prop up BMI forever, and regardless of the deal, VS would have seen their cash reserves take a hit if they couldn't have done something with BMI quickly ( which is unlikely )

VS do need a few additional slots over the next few years, if only to allow for increased frequencies when the smaller A330s start arriving in a couple of months. There won't necessarily be a huge increase in passenger numbers but frequencies will probably see a steady increase...depending on the speed of economic recovery, or lack thereof!



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7036 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 11):
VS do need a few additional slots over the next few years, if only to allow for increased frequencies when the smaller A330s start arriving in a couple of months. There won't necessarily be a huge increase in passenger numbers but frequencies will probably see a steady increase...depending on the speed of economic recovery, or lack thereof!

What I don't understand is why VS are so bothered by anything BA do ?

For a start VS and BA are like chalk and cheese and VS have a very loyal customer base.

Secondly, VS's size means it should be able to maintain excellent levels of service and products to 'keep it in the game'
You could argue they should have far far superior soft/hard products than the huge legacy carriers in Europe.

Thirdly, they benefit from being able to fly only the most 'choice' routes. (nothing wrong with that) Good luck to 'em !!

Finally, if you compare the size ratio over the years between BA and VS although the gulf is still huge it's alot smaller than it used to be so who cares. BA has always been massive compared to VS. Naturally. This has always been part of their charm and appeal.

I think VS should ditch the dizty self obsessed cabin crew, James Bond-esque commercials and 'cool' image and go for a far more upmarket yet still starchless image.

Sevenheavy I don't dislike VS at all believe it or not. It's just the rhetoric I find annoying.

[Edited 2012-01-22 10:33:23]

[Edited 2012-01-22 10:35:15]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2081 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6945 times:

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 4):
I think this more a tactical move by VS to get more slots by making the regulators sweat a bit.

How would VS get more slots? All that could happen, is that like with AA/BA ATI, BA would have to provide X number of slots for a competitor to compete on say LHR-EDI, LHR-ABZ, LHR-MAN if they want to.

That's what I don't get with VS and their rhetoric over this deal. The ATI deal shows that BA wouldn't just be told to shed X number of slots for anyone to pick up. Rather, if there are competition concerns then BA coul be forced to provide slots for a competitor to come in on specific routes. How does this benefit VS? Does it really want to launch LHR-MAN and LHR-EDI? Would anyone actually want to come into LHR and operate those routes?

As I said, I just don't figure what VS hopes to achieve from their objections other than to be a fly in the ointment of this deal. And putting said deal in doubt will hardly do it favours with LH if it they then went to apply to join Star; whilst I'm sure that should VS apply to have a joint venture with someone on the Atlantic in the next few years Willie Walsh would take great delight on dropping all the stones hurled by VS on their glass house in one go!


If I was running VS I'd have been looking to get a deal done with DL/AF. You can take the moral high ground of saying that alliances are anti-competitive, but that by linking up with DL ex-LHR then they (VS) would be doing so to counter the AA/BA (oneworld) and UA/AC (Star) ATI link-ups out of LHR working with DL (SkyTeam). But that suggestion has some logic behind it, so why do that when you can continue to throw stones and insults at BA and cry foul once more.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6768 times:

On one hand I can see why VS makes a fuss, but I tend to agree that the execution, as well as the "underdog" spin is a bit old hat and probably does more harm than good......particularly on A.net!

I have to wonder what BA would do in the same situation. It's all part of the game and the U.K. airline industry is far from unique. I'm quite sure that BA priced in a protracted objection by VS. In all of the mergers/acquisitions I can think of in the U.S. for example at least one competing carrier has lodged a complaint of a similar nature

Ultimately, given the track record of commercial war games between the two airlines I would be amazed if anyone expected anything else! the funny thing is that privately, right up to CEO level, the two sides actually get on very well....this is just part of the fun!



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6723 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 14):
the funny thing is that privately, right up to CEO level, the two sides actually get on very well....this is just part of the fun!

Business is business but I'm not so sure Walsh and Branson are playing the back 9 so to speak !



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6694 times:

Branson doesn't really have anything to do with day to day running. It's Steve RIdgway and his chiefs that run the airline. I would imagine Branson would be less willing to kiss and make up!


So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinesandyb123 From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2007, 1096 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6616 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
the carrier counts on BMI to feed about 25% of trans-Atlantic traffic through a code-sharing agreement that might now be terminated

If this statement is true then Virgin stand to loose 25% of their core trans-atlantic routes? That would start to cause serious problems for VS I'd imagine?

Quoting planejamie (Reply 10):
Maybe if VS spent the time, effort and money that they do moaning about BA on improving their offering and actually becoming a decent airline again

Agreed, but the major problem in that strategy whilst operating from LHR is slots. They can't get slots, so they might aswell try it on with a bit of competitor bashing and see what they can get out of it, as per.....

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
How would VS get more slots? All that could happen, is that like with AA/BA ATI, BA would have to provide X number of slots for a competitor to compete on say LHR-EDI, LHR-ABZ, LHR-MAN if they want to.

I think that's the only way VS will get anymore slots at LHR other than the odd one or two coming up. They're like gold dust!

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 4):
Branson can compete domestically with Virgin Trains,

I don't think that's a realistic prospect for the connecting market. Virgin trains goes into Euston which would require a connection to Paddington or Underground to Heathrow. Not sure if the Heathrow low level tunnels could take the Virgin Pendelino trains or if there is a workable link between the west coast mainline and Heathrow. Virgin trains isn't a big player at Edinburgh either as most trips to London require a change.

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
why have they never considered a UK domestic operation of their own to provide competition and to support their inter-continental ops

It's an interesting point about a short haul operation in Europe. They've tried it before but Virgin Group now have experience of operating a short haul business in Australia and America linking into a long haul business, with some very similar market challenges and opportunities. They couldn't start a short haul business from LHR, but I agree that the BA monopoly on the likes of EDI and GLA is not good for customers.

Imagine a scenario where Virgin gave up on long-haul from LHR, sold their slots and based at LGW (where they already have a reasonable presence) and built a feeder short haul UK & Euopean airline (Virgin Europe?) which competed on the connecting market and the O&D stuff.

We know BA aren't going to budge from LHR and the BD acquisition will make them even stronger there. Perhaps Virgin should cut their losses and build a bigger, short, medium and long haul business at Gatwick.

Just my 2 pence.

Sandyb123

[Edited 2012-01-22 14:50:34]


Member of the mile high club
User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6527 times:

Just to clarify, VS gets nowhere near 25% of its transatlantic traffic from BMI (if that is what is meant). It wasn't anywhere close to that even before BMI started cutting back on its key domestic and European destinations.

On a very busy day it wouldn't even be close to 5%!



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7461 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5991 times:

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 17):
Agreed, but the major problem in that strategy whilst operating from LHR is slots. They can't get slots, so they might aswell try it on with a bit of competitor bashing and see what they can get out of it, as per.....
Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 17):
I think that's the only way VS will get anymore slots at LHR other than the odd one or two coming up. They're like gold dust!

Where there is a will there is a way. According to the LHR slot co-ordinator, Airport Coordination Ltd (ACL), these are the number of slots operated by the two airlines at the start of each Summer Timetable n terms of number of Air Transport Movements per Week:

2003: BA: 3,602. VS:322

2004: BA: 3,744. VS: 284

2005: BA: 3,780, VS: 255

2006: BA: 3.787. VS: 280

2007: BA: 3,829. VS: 322

2008: BA: 3,950. VS: 326

2009: BA: 3,980. VS: 325

2010: BA: 4,028. VS: 286

2011: BA: 4,040. VS: 288

So over this 8 year period - chosen because it is the only period for which data are currently published by ACL - BA have managed to add 438 weekly slots which is more than one and one half times the total number of slots that VS operated at the start of last summer. Put another way if VS had really wanted to challenge BA at LHR they could potentially have an LHR operation two and one half times the size of their current operation if they had applied themselves to maximising their slot holding.

So the availability of LHR slots - particularly when we remember that BA has had to lease out slots to DL in order to gain ATI with AA - is not quite as poor as some would suggest as BA have managed to add the equivalent to 1.5 VS operations to their slot holding in just 8 years. Now they have purchased an extra 6 daily slot pairs, probably equivalent to a further 84 weekly slots, from Lufthansa Group and, if the purchase of BD goes through, will add about another 700 weekly slots to their operations.

Of course it is a free market and most of the additional 1,200 plus LHR slots that BA have or are trying to add to their portfolio since2003 might have been bought by any other airline or airlines including VS.(The reason why it is "most" and not "all" is because BA gained slots will include some transferred from IB to operate additional flights to BCN.)


User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 11):
With regards to the feed VS get at LHR, they actually get more from BA than any other
Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 18):
Just to clarify, VS gets nowhere near 25% of its transatlantic traffic from BMI (if that is what is meant). It wasn't anywhere close to that even before BMI started cutting back on its key domestic and European destinations.

On a very busy day it wouldn't even be close to 5%!

Not that I doubt you but where do you get these numbers?



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineslinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5498 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 8):
After all - VS benefits ""greatly"" by exploiting the most lucrative routes at LHR

How does VS "exploit" these routes exactly? And please, no rubbish about stalking BA on popular routes Mikey!

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 11):
With regards to the feed VS get at LHR, they actually get more from BA than any other

Exactly as repeated by your later comment:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 11):
With regards to the feed VS get at LHR, they actually get more from BA than any other. On one hand not surprising given the size of BA's operation. But it does go against the perception of the two airlines as arch enemies!

VS and BA collaborate in lots of ways, including outstation engineering for example, as well as the interline agreement in place.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
What I don't understand is why VS are so bothered by anything BA do ?

If you listen to VS they are bother by lots, however where you have a dominant carrier at the largest base it is llikely that they'll be bothered by that more than others, n'est-ce pas?

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 17):
I think that's the only way VS will get anymore slots at LHR other than the odd one or two coming up. They're like gold dust!

I find it sad, as a VS fan, that it appears that its strategy is to get slots by whining, I read earlier on ANet that QR is adding a 5th daily LHR flight next year, which goes to prove that airlines (as VV701 pointed out with the BA slot analysis) can, relatively easily gain slots if they really want to. The truth to me seems to be that SRB doesn't want to invest in VS (see mobile, money etc. as now more high profile).


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5378 times:

Quoting slinky09 (Reply 21):
How does VS "exploit" these routes exactly? And please, no rubbish about stalking BA on popular routes Mikey!

I don't want to get into VS bashing anymore because it's unproductive and negative and truthfully that's not what I'm about.

If VS are going to bring this into their argument......

""Virgin believes UK authorities should also look into the proposed purchase as it will have a considerable impact on domestic flights, particularly overlapping routes such as services between Heathrow and Scotland.

.....when they are not domestic operators themselves ? What's that all about ?

Penalize BA because it does provide an invaluable link to LHR (and has done since before VS was a twinkle in Bransons eye) just because the competition has gone bust ??

Or...block this deal that is going to save jobs and provide great opportunities at LHR just because VS are worried about a couple of routes they don't even serve ?

So like I said.....if they're happy to captialize on the most lucrative routes from LHR and bearing in mind this ''sudden'' concern for Scottish travellers....

....why don't they (they carry the flag of the nation on their aircraft too) put their money where their mouth is and provide the people with an alternative. This is after all the mantra of VS ??



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5333 times:

VS wants a few free slots out of this, and they are happy. The lizard behaves like a hungry crocodile - give him a fly and he will behave like a sleeping alligator again.

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5259 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 23):
VS wants a few free slots out of this, and they are happy. The lizard behaves like a hungry crocodile - give him a fly and he will behave like a sleeping alligator again.

It's a shame they don't just say...

'come on, fair's fair, bung us a couple of slots and we'll shut up'.....you can't tell me they couldn't do this behind closed doors.

I'm just not so sure that slots is what this is all really about !

[Edited 2012-01-23 00:55:26]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
25 slinky09 : Good, I like capitalize more than exploit, that's fair. It's also what everyone else does, e.g. UA doesn't fly from Little Rock to LHR!
26 Richcandy : Hi Just a question. Years ago when I worked in the UK travel industry, passengers from the regions would nearly pay extra to connect via AMS/FRA or ma
27 captainmeeerkat : The problem with that is that VS couldn't possibly, in the short term, use all the slots from BD - they don't have the network or a/c for it. They wo
28 mikey72 : UA is not based at LHR so i'm not sure I follow. You may aswell ask why United (or in your example ExpressJet etc) does not fly LHR to MAN ? All that
29 richardw : How many current long haul direct non-stop routes does BA have a monopoly on and are currently making life difficult for competitors?
30 FlyCaledonian : But they won't just be given free slots! And bunging them a few as someone suggested would be bribery! As I said, the ATI deal between AA/BA points t
31 captainmeeerkat : If you quote fully what I said, there is a modal conditional in my sentences - 'can be used', nowhere is there a present time implied,
32 richardw : If BA were going to exploit a monopoly on long-haul routes you'd think they'd be doing it by now, which is why I asked the 'present' question. Some ma
33 skipness1E : Sounds reasonable except if they leave Heathrow, most, and I do mean most, of their premium traffic would stay at Heathrow and their revenue base wou
34 captainmeeerkat : Perhaps they need a good few extra slots to do so? No one is saying monopoly but there has to be a realisation that BA's growth can only come at the
35 skipness1E : The growth of company A is only at the expense of company B in this market if company B is offering a poorer product. BA was constrained by a brillia
36 richardw : or you just allow BA to compete with Air China on LHR-Guangzhou.
37 mikey72 : VS did ''choose'' to pit itself against a vast european legacy carrier with a domestic operation that feeds its long-haul ops at one of the worlds mos
38 captainmeeerkat : That is hardly VS's decision to make. Yes that is extremely true, yet it doesn't mean that the biggest operator should be allowed to expand and grow
39 richardw : The BD take over would allow BA to compete with Air China, that would be healthy competition and not VS can utilise its slots to compete as well, but
40 Post contains links VV701 : From the annual reports listed here: http://www.acl-uk.org/reportsStatistics.aspx?id=98&subjectId=33 Do they? Happy? Why? Never! Look at the data
41 Bongodog1964 : The above analysis is probably rather simplistic, rather than looking at the overall slot gains BA have made, if you ise a % figure, which I believe
42 mikey72 : The competition is as weak as it chooses to be. If you constantly and over time make the wrong decisions at the highest level (VS) you go bust. That'
43 slinky09 : Once more, VS leased 28 weekly slots from UA for three years from 2007 to 2010 ... so they haven't been shedding slots, just not acquiring any. The r
44 mikey72 : VS wants ths UK authorites to to be heavily involved because it knows the EU will judge the deal based upon BA's peers in the EU i.e LH, AF etc So bas
45 slinky09 : So is UA and DL's presence at LHR also parasitic, or Air Nigeria, or any other airline that has opened routes that compete with an established airlin
46 richardw : But could there be strings attached to the deal for IAG?
47 mikey72 : Of course it matters if they're bases. For a start the costs are much higher to operate from a base. United and Delta or Air Nigeria don't have to ba
48 Post contains links VV701 : The EU regulation on slot allocation does not allow ACL to allocate spare slots in proportion to existing slot usage. On the contrary it requires tha
49 captainmeeerkat : If BA needs to buy BD just to compete with one airline on one route, send WWW (Wee Willie Wonderful) back to EI Very interesting, thanks for that. Wh
50 richardw : It won't be one airline on one route though, they'd also be competing with a new stronger LATAM on direct non-stop LHR to South America routes and ot
51 captainmeeerkat : The very same thing VS would have to do without the benefit of the feed that BD brings (whatever % it is), and against a carrier that can offer more
52 richardw : each and every BD domestic flight may not have feed passengers to VS on them, and perhaps not to other airlines, the regulators may look at if there
53 captainmeeerkat : And to go back to the start of this thread, I believe this is what VS wants out of this prososed deal but how does the regulator enforce such a thing
54 richardw : I'd be pleased to hear any thoughts on this.
55 mikey72 : Imagine you own a good airline that derives 60% of its profits from 30% of its routes. Along comes another good airline and operates only those 30% o
56 captainmeeerkat : I certainly don't have the answer but creating a bigger BA by destroying another domestic carrier is not the answer. The regulators themselves can de
57 Bongodog1964 : Unfortunately you missed off the footnote to the regulation Slot pool and new entrants: all slots that become available (due to the introduction of m
58 Post contains links VV701 : It does not. That is a suggestion first put forward in Reply 18. I gave the link that enabled a-netters to read everything, including that footnote,
59 captainmeeerkat : Sorry, that looks like you are answering my question. The very opening of this thread talked about the lack of domestic competition being the problem
60 mikey72 : JFK, SFO, MIA, LAX, IAD, BOS, EWR, JNB, CPT, DXB, HKG, DEL and LOS. From HEATHROW ! Who needs feed ? (only 3 of them are more than once daily - JFK, E
61 captainmeeerkat : Heathrow is a very small place in an island that has a population c.60m! Should they walk from EDI or BFS to LHR to take VS to one of the above? Not
62 mikey72 : Forgive me but you are obviously not very familar with LHR and the nature of its traffic.
63 mikey72 : Well I guess it's rather VS's funeral then isn't it ? (Which I don't want to see before I get accused of bashing) I don't follow you...it's business.
64 captainmeeerkat : And nobody has yet given any idea of the feed (or lack thereof) that BD provides to VS on codeshares. I'm well aware that LHR is a transit hub but O&
65 skipness1E : There's not a whole lot on offer from BMI domestically, and what is on offer, in economy, BA do better and up front, there's little difference. Indee
66 captainmeeerkat : How can it be competitive if: 1. BA becomes even more dominant on the domestic and intra-European routes. 2. BA uses slots to offer better times, mor
67 mikey72 : Approx 130,000,000 people passed through London's airports last year. Nobody seems to know how much feed BD provide VS. Some say 25% transatlantic, s
68 mikey72 : Well that's the whole crux of it isn't it. BA is ''trying'' to compete primarily with its European peers via oneWorld with Skyteam and the Star Allia
69 skipness1E : BA are not dominant on domestic, easyJet are. BMI's domestic network has been dying for years, GLA was axed, ABZ was on the ERJ-145 as is MAN. This i
70 captainmeeerkat : BMI is LHR's second biggest airline in terms of movements and in seats. From the top 5 destinations served, BD serve four of them. It can certainly b
71 richardw : Don't VS have data regarding the feed passengers they get from BD? If it was in their interest to publish it, then they probably would publish.
72 mikey72 : If VS close-up shop it's because they've made the wrong decisions over the years. What are you suggesting ? Drag BA down with them ? That's just grea
73 captainmeeerkat : I really don't disagree with you. They have no need to 'drag BA down' with them. Yet they should be able to 'wet their beaks' a little bit too. Ok, l
74 delta2ual : Question-Did Virgin Express (when it was around) feed paxs into LHR and Virgin Atlantic? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.
75 VV701 : Nevertheless the link provided by the thread opener talks of IAG having "another 56 slots at Heathrow". And hardly surprisingly "slots" are a recurri
76 skipness1E : No, there was no through booking or connections available. Take out all the flying for Lufthansa and Swiss remember. What is this big fuss over domes
77 captainmeeerkat : This figure is without LX and LH U2 is irrelevant to the transfer of passengers at LHR In terms of quality yes, quantity no. BA has a c.42& share
78 mikey72 : No not at all (that's not what I want), but they seem to have forgotten their raison d'etre. Their very existence at LHR though shouldn't be reason e
79 skipness1E : Look BMI make no money feeding anyone, that's a fundamental truth. The revenue goes to the long haul STAR partner for the most part, this is why GLA
80 lhr380 : I don't agree with your last statement at all. A hell of a lot of people use BA to connect onto VS services. Both domestic and euro customers.
81 Post contains images captainmeeerkat : Ok, BA will buy them and what will be will be Was that not my point from the onset? They anre annoyed. The crux of the problem. Finally, we agree I'm
82 sevenheavy : Without getting too much into this debate there are a couple of points to clarify; VS's feed from BD is nothing like 25%. Their entire connecting traf
83 FlyCaledonian : So where is VS saying this? They'd be a lot more credible if they said that taking away the feed would hurt them, and say put an offer on the table f
84 offloaded : Continuing on the "who feeds who" theme, some examples, VS to NYC from various European cities, and interline partners: LIS: BA TP MAD: BA GIB: BA MIL
85 Post contains images mikey72 : Well said.
86 AIR MALTA : That shows that BA feeds VS even more than BD... What VS customers will now miss are those miles they would acquire on the BD code shared flights...
87 Bongodog1964 : Does anyone have any idea when we will know if the bid is referred to the competition people, and if it is how long it might be to get a final answer
88 mikey72 : God knows but look at it this way. There are 3 global airline giants in Europe. 2 of them are involved in this deal. Add the fact that it's a fair de
89 lhr380 : With rumours on this site that BD have enough money to last till march I hope they are looking quickly....
90 skipness1E : BMI won't close in March if the deal is delayed, that would not suit Lufthansa or BA. More money would be pumped in, again....
91 Post contains images mikey72 : Maybe once the deal is cleared LH could sue VS for any expense incurred keeping BD afloat in the meantime. Then split the proceeds with BA.
92 richardw : Malcolm Bruce MP asked the PM a question regarding the preservation of BMI slots at ABZ in the House of Commons today at about 12.30, the PM said he w
93 jfk777 : Virign should be given the opportunity to buy 5 to 10 slots from BMI & LH to shut it up. LH has only its self to blame for the mess BMI has become
94 skipness1E : It's a European thing. They have no presence in that market and as a foreign flag carrier it doesn't resonate in the marketplace. BA are a great name
95 mikey72 : This was in the press a few weeks ago. ''But Gordon MP Malcolm Bruce said he had “some concerns” about the deal, and said he hoped there would be
96 AIR MALTA : Or may be the airlines that will take over BMI regional will get some slots to operate LHR-EDI and LHR-ABZ. That way, competition is preserved and Vi
97 sandyb123 : Why is there so much bulls*it in politics!? Well fingers crossed the inept Mr Salmond won't win his corrupt devolution vote but if he does, every bus
98 skipness1E : As a London based Scot I suspect Salmod's rhetoric reminds me of Gordon Brown, all bluster and little substance. BA does well on ABZ-LHR, well enough
99 mikey72 : Oh I hope he doesn't. It's a great Union. I just hope the Scots don't get sucked in by him in the meantime. All that's not for here though is it. BA
100 jfk777 : Not a LH branded airline but a BMI LHR to JFK flight, BMI products on their A330's with the generous sized Premuim economy seats and decent J class w
101 skipness1E : My understanding is that when they looked at the projected revenue in 2008, at the same time Continental and Delta were launching LHR-NYC, they would
102 mikey72 : This has probably been discussed already but what's the likely plan for A330's ? Who owns 'em ?
103 mikey72 : I did hear on the grapevine that 'Butlins' were thinking about starting LHR/JFK. Sorry jfk777 you won't understand that but I couldn't resist.
104 skipness1E : They're leased alas, and one of the most beautiful aircraft at LHR. Well G-WWBD is, not so much G-WWBM.
105 VV701 : It might suit BA. BD would go into administration. The administrator might offer all the separate parts of BD for sale. BA could cherry pick buying t
106 bwaflyer : All Heathrow slots are mainline slots. All Heathrow flights are mainline flights. There are no bmi Regional flights at Heathrow. 4-5 ERJ are damp lea
107 slinky09 : Wouldn't it - would the slots sold individually fetch more than the £172m, and then more than the liabilities (if any in administration) left on LH'
108 Ant72LBA : I think I've read all the posts on this thread and something that I don't think has been mentioned is - why wouldn't Virgin object? Even if there is n
109 bennett123 : I suppose that a lot of people are very aware that for a lot of jobs at BD are likely to go down the tubes if the company folds.
110 lhr380 : And at the same time make life even more difficult for BD staff by keeping them in limbo?
111 VV701 : What they were or even are today is not necessarily what they will be tomorrow. All 50 weekly slots that SN are now using for their BRU-LHR service w
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
BA To AUS And NZ Question posted Fri Oct 15 2010 04:51:11 by bonave
VS Talks To LH About BD posted Thu May 10 2007 10:02:20 by Kiwiandrew
BA & VS Service To MCO And BGI posted Fri Jul 16 2004 22:50:58 by BGIplanefreak
UK In Terroist Alert. What About VS/BA/BD? posted Mon Mar 5 2001 09:06:08 by Jiml1126
MAN A Possible Focus City For BA/BD posted Tue Jan 17 2012 18:44:48 by olddominion727
BA B777 Seating Question posted Wed Nov 30 2011 08:50:16 by skipness1E
BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA posted Wed Nov 16 2011 12:22:26 by Speedbird741
BA 3 Class 777 Question posted Sat Nov 13 2010 08:15:20 by speedmarque
BA Mixed Fleet Question posted Wed Oct 13 2010 03:52:15 by TFFIP
BA Mixed Fleet Question posted Thu Sep 30 2010 09:31:14 by TFFIP
MAN A Possible Focus City For BA/BD posted Tue Jan 17 2012 18:44:48 by olddominion727
BA B777 Seating Question posted Wed Nov 30 2011 08:50:16 by skipness1E
BBC Documentary On First 747-400 Delivered To BA posted Wed Nov 16 2011 12:22:26 by Speedbird741
BA 3 Class 777 Question posted Sat Nov 13 2010 08:15:20 by speedmarque
BA Mixed Fleet Question posted Wed Oct 13 2010 03:52:15 by TFFIP