Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
LH To Axe YYC  
User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10497 times:

Good afternoon everyone,

Came across this article in the news this morning. Looks like LH is ending the 22 years of service to YYC. Last date of service is the 4th of Feb.

Link to article (not much information):

CBC News Calgary

Any more info on the reason for this? I took a flight last fall to FRA with LH. The flight was full both ways?!

Wonder if AC will dedicate a 77W?

thanks,

Tinosky.

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10419 times:

Quoting Tinosky (Thread starter):
Good afternoon everyone,

Came across this article in the news this morning. Looks like LH is ending the 22 years of service to YYC. Last date of service is the 4th of Feb.

Link to article (not much information):

CBC News Calgary

Any more info on the reason for this? I took a flight last fall to FRA with LH. The flight was full both ways?!

Wonder if AC will dedicate a 77W?

thanks,

Tinosky.

It's not really 22 consecutive years of service. They flew to YYC in the 80's and stopped it in 1988, and then started again in 2008. The market simply isn't big enough or profitable enough. Loads have nothing to do with yields and the paying business pax numbers just weren't there. AC will be switching to 333 instead of the current 763.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2149 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10372 times:

Thanks for the post - this was actually already discussed a few months ago  Lufthansa To Discontinue Calgary (by mah4546 Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)

In summary, the YYCFRA market is not large enough to support two carriers on the route. Most of the higher-yielding O&G traffic to YYC is headed by ways of LHR and AMS, and the lower yielding connecting traffic is picked up for scraps by LH over Frankfurt. With AC and LH having ATI, they can consolidate their ops onto the pre-existing daily flight on AC metal to retain some market share, but there is no need for overkill to have two partners flying the same route. The freed up LH aircraft can be sent to a more profitable long-haul market (or retired).

Also....I don't think that LH has been in YYC for over 22 years....where did you get that from?



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2922 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10332 times:

If it's as coordinated as reported (LH cancels, AC up-gauges), it looks like *A / ATI rationalization. Normally airport authorities don't like losing an airline, but in this case the authority was quite sanguine - “The most important thing that we're focused on is looking at making sure that we have the connections and the seats available to passengers, and we definitely have that still,” said Jody Moseley with the Calgary Airport Authority.

[Edited 2012-01-23 13:43:01]


Note à moi-même - il faut respecter les cons.
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10259 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
Also....I don't think that LH has been in YYC for over 22 years....where did you get that from?

Yes, that is clearly not correct.


User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10217 times:

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 4):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
Also....I don't think that LH has been in YYC for over 22 years....where did you get that from?

Yes, that is clearly not correct.

Sorry about that. I swear I thought they were in service since the 80's. I flew LH to FRA back in 99. I clearly remember this as I still have a LH napkin from that flight (yes, I know im a airline nut). Regardless, Just sad to see a great airline leave. I guess it's a good thing for AC though!  

cheers,


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2149 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 5):
Sorry about that. I swear I thought they were in service since the 80's. I flew LH to FRA back in 99. I clearly remember this as I still have a LH napkin from that flight (yes, I know im a airline nut). Regardless, Just sad to see a great airline leave. I guess it's a good thing for AC though!  

No worries, it was just off and on I believe. As far as the napkins, I also have a few stored somewhere back at home. Not uncommon here on a.net. Most of them are from the earlier days when they used to be very cool and had the airline logos on them, before they became clogged with advertisements and other enhancements that make them less cool to keep as souvenirs.

Then again, I can understand why, they are a revenue generator if they have ads on them  



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

Well, the Star Alliance rationalization makes sense, but it is sad to see an airline go. As busy and growing as YYC theoretically is, there's not much variety here.

Does anyone know how BA is doing on their route? I would hope that they are in a more stable spot... particularly as I just converted all my credit card points into Avios.  

JL



Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24643 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 9657 times:

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 5):
Quoting ACT7 (Reply 4):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
Also....I don't think that LH has been in YYC for over 22 years....where did you get that from?

Yes, that is clearly not correct.

Sorry about that. I swear I thought they were in service since the 80's. I flew LH to FRA back in 99.

I flew LH FRA-YYC-YVR in October 1988. At that time YYC was an intermediate stop en route to YVR. I think they dropped YYC stop soon after. It was a DC-10-30 then.

It makes little difference now who flies the route since AC and LH have had a revenue-sharing joint venture for quite a few years.

[Edited 2012-01-23 14:53:40]

User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5919 posts, RR: 40
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9268 times:

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 1):
It's not really 22 consecutive years of service. They flew to YYC in the 80's and stopped it in 1988, and then started again in 2008. The market simply isn't big enough or profitable enough. Loads have nothing to do with yields and the paying business pax numbers just weren't there. AC will be switching to 333 instead of the current 763.

well I am surprised that the yields are not high, well their might be a big share of tourists on the flight but also on high yield business pax specially for the oil industri connecting on many LH flights out of FRA



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 9009 times:

Quoting Jean Leloup (Reply 7):
As busy and growing as YYC theoretically is, there's not much variety here.

Unfortunately YYC has had virtually no growth this year, particularly in international pax. In fact that segment is down YoY. U.S. traffic is up by about 1,100 people this year so for all intents and purposes, no growth. The reality seems to be that, while Calgary is considered a hub for AC, it is a domestic airport with some international service.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 9):
well I am surprised that the yields are not high, well their might be a big share of tourists on the flight but also on high yield business pax specially for the oil industri connecting on many LH flights out of FRA

J class is always hard to guage because several of those seats could be filled with upgraded bums. LH would not have pulled out if it was a high yielding flight, regardless of their *A partnership with AC. They fly into several *A hubs around the world along with their partners.


User currently offlineLAX888 From Singapore, joined Oct 2010, 278 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8551 times:

Will they start a new route with the plane or will they reduce capacity?

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2048 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 1):
Loads have nothing to do with yields

I keep reading that here, but it's not really true, is it? Loads and yields are not the exact same thing, but if an airplane is empty, it's a pretty safe bet the operator isn't making any money with it. If it's filled to the brim, demand must have been high, so the prices could have been held high. There are exceptions both ways, but you can't say that loads and yields have no connection at all..



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineFerminios From Canada, joined Apr 2011, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 12):
if an airplane is empty, it's a pretty safe bet the operator isn't making any money with it

Well, unless you can take a look in the belly of the aircraft, you still don't know.

Yields and loads are only slightly related. If you're flying a plane full of $250 return fares FRA-YYC , you bet they won't be making any money unless there's significant cargo on board.  


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6736 times:

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 13):
Yields and loads are only slightly related

Correct. But they are related.

Quoting Ferminios (Reply 13):
you bet they won't be making any money unless there's significant cargo on board.

I think cargo is by far overrated by a lot of people here on this forum. As long as a carrier can't make money on a route, cargo won't change this. Cargo can improve the performance of a route, but it is no "Gamechanger".


Sad to see LH pull out of YYC. Hopefully the route performs good for AC so that they can gauge up to a 77W.   


User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6122 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 14):
Sad to see LH pull out of YYC. Hopefully the route performs good for AC so that they can gauge up to a 77W

Totally agree, would love to see some 77W action in YYC. I do know that they randomly had 77W's in the summer season. I have seen them many times flying over my house. Maybe more in the future?

Tinosky,


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2359 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5718 times:

With the little to no growth this year, especially in the intl sector, i wonder how AC's plans will turn out ref. YYC-NRT 5x weekly, and year round (although most likely not 5x weekly in the winter, but back down to 3x).

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5644 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
With the little to no growth this year, especially in the intl sector, i wonder how AC's plans will turn out ref. YYC-NRT 5x weekly, and year round (although most likely not 5x weekly in the winter, but back down to 3x).

Thenoflyzone

I was wondering the same thing. I wonder how well that flight would do if it didn't start and end in YYZ too. Unfortunately, YYC is the only major airport in Canada to post a loss in international traffic this year (at least up until the end of Nov.) so it will also be interesting to see how their massive, and in my opinion, way too ambitious expansion plays out.


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2149 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5551 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 9):
well I am surprised that the yields are not high, well their might be a big share of tourists on the flight but also on high yield business pax specially for the oil industri connecting on many LH flights out of FRA

It's because two daily flights was an excess of capacity on this route, which in turned diluted the yields for both AC and LH. One single daily flight operated by one carrier is sufficient, especially if they have ATI. And, as I mention above, the pool at YYC is small when you have KL flying to AMS and BA and AC to LHR to compete against.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 10):
The reality seems to be that, while Calgary is considered a hub for AC, it is a domestic airport with some international service.

It's like how DEN is to the UA network.

Quoting ACT7 (Reply 10):
They fly into several *A hubs around the world along with their partners.

Yes, but the market conditions are not the same for every city pair. Notice how both YVR and LAX are only connected to Frankfurt by LH. Air Canada does not fly YVR-FRA nor does UA fly LAX-FRA.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
It's like how DEN is to the UA network.

Yup, exactly. 52 MM pax a year, 90% of which are domestic. YYC is about 70% domestic.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
Yes, but the market conditions are not the same for every city pair. Notice how both YVR and LAX are only connected to Frankfurt by LH. Air Canada does not fly YVR-FRA nor does UA fly LAX-FRA.

True. And LH does not fly YUL-FRA, although they do fly to MUC.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2224 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5443 times:

I think this is a result of the cross Atlantic agreement between UA/LH/AC. It makes sense for AC to upgauge up to a 777 eventually than pay for two flights when frequency isn't required on the route. If the market grew beyond the 777 then LH would consider the B748i. Under the agreement it would be seemless for the traveler, with both airlines marketing the flight as if it was their own. I think the volume out of YYZ is such that two flights will continue and the frequency is a bit important for connections at FRA. But we could see some capacity shifting between the two airlines. For example we might see a 787/748 combination sometime in the future. Or more cargo shifted to LH Cargo and three flights with smaller aircraft than the 77W, 346 etc. All sorts of shifts are now possible without a financial penalty to either partner. There already is revenue sharing to FRA.

User currently offlineTinosky From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5369 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 16):
With the little to no growth this year, especially in the intl sector, i wonder how AC's plans will turn out ref. YYC-NRT 5x weekly, and year round (although most likely not 5x weekly in the winter, but back down to 3x).

Thenoflyzone

I am hoping this route will be fine. I fly the YYCNRT route often and it does make a huge difference in convenience. Many of my friends fly back home often and they always look forward to the seasonal direct route. Should be interesting to see how well it does this year. If anything, they would reduce to 3x weekly?

Looks like AC already has the direct route ready to book online, starting end of March.

Tinosky,


User currently offlineSLCUT2777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 4019 posts, RR: 11
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5261 times:

Quoting Tinosky (Reply 21):
I fly the YYCNRT route often and it does make a huge difference in convenience.

If this route to NRT works for DL from SLC, than AC should do just fine with this. Interestingly LH has looked at non-Star cities in North America in the past. They've also approached the SLC Department of Airports in the past for SLC-FRA, hence part of the ambitions of SLC to upgrade their facilities much like YYC.



DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5260 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 20):
I think the volume out of YYZ is such that two flights will continue and the frequency is a bit important for connections at FRA. But we could see some capacity shifting between the two airlines.

It's actually 3 flights daily between AC and LH. LH is increasing capacity this summer with the reintroduction of A346.

I think in YYC's case, if the demand/yield got to a certain point then we would certainly see at least partial 77W service. But with most of AC's 77W's and 77L's already spoken for on very high yielding routes, that may be a long ways away.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5919 posts, RR: 40
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 18):
Notice how both YVR and LAX are only connected to Frankfurt by LH.

well LAX is since many years conected to MUC as well by LH



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
25 IrishAyes : SLCNRT is actually being canned in S12. However, it's somewhat of a redundant route given that there are already 4+ west coast gateways to NRT on Del
26 Viscount724 : That must make LH the only carrier to pull out of YYC twice. BA and KL both did it once.
27 ACT7 : Unfortunately, it wouldn't surprise me if BA pulls out again. If international traffic is down or flat again this year, it may simply mean that the m
28 thenoflyzone : They announced the same thing last year, and it never happened. Recession in Europe, recent oil pipeline project down the drain in AB...if the econom
29 ACT7 : Not to mention AA stopping ORD service. I know AA is having issues but this has also been an on again, off again service that just can't seem to stick
30 Hawaiian763 : Quite sad to see LH pulling out of YYC, always loved seeing the 343, was a nice change from the seeing AC and WS metal all the time.
31 Post contains images lightsaber : Agreed, until one realizes airlines are like night clubs. If its empty, the word gets around that 'no one fly XX' and the flight truly goes bust. So
32 cyeg66 : ....could be said for most flights out of YVR, too. Ever notice the number of heavies flying YYZ-YVR-onward...? Virtually the same thing with many of
33 Boeingorbust : Yes but I wouldn't count on the pipeline being down permanently. The States really has no choice especially if they are trying to get more oil, incre
34 thenoflyzone : Which Asian carrier? The most likely candidates would be NH or CA. NH doesn't even serve YVR or YYZ, as for CA, their North American network is prett
35 Viscount724 : It was a 772 when BA first re-started LHR-YYC in December 2006 after about 23 years absence. Initial schedule was 5 x week 772. Forget when it was do
36 Tinosky : My best friend flew back from Korea last summer. KAL had a direct flight to YYC from ICN. I was quite suprized and almost didn't believe him that it
37 threepoint : There's precisely one: AC 33/34 that serves YYZ-YVR-SYD. All other widebody flights between YYZ & YVR are separate flight numbers serving a major
38 Viscount724 : I think there are precisely two. You are overlooking AC 63/64 YYZ-YVR-ICN, 763.
39 threepoint : Serves me right for not fact checking; especially as I wondered about ICN as I typed my answer.
40 longhauler : I am going to say three. 007/008 YYZ-YVR-HKG/HKG-YVR-YYZ Any more?
41 threepoint : Well done for not using the word 'precisely'; wish I had pressed the 'check before typing' button... I'm going to qualify the HKG mention as there is
42 Post contains images YVRLTN : Thats right, the three flights. As you say, YVR is able to sustain itself and its about keeping the aircraft flying through the system to avoid lengt
43 whiteguy : A lot of cargo used to be hauled on AC FRA flight but they lost a lot of it to Cargolux and BA. Downgrading FRA from an A343 to an A333 sure didn't h
44 YVRLTN : AC just route their cargo through LHR instead, most of it connects with EK ironically. Its all about the big picture. But with a big drop in capacity
45 whiteguy : Partly true but a large amount of cargo to FRA was the horse meat contract. When it was operated with an A343 they could haul 5 or 6 4000 kg pallets
46 YVRLTN : So in turn CV now have less capacity to offer, we have to go to SEA generally to get on them, though the new 748 may help a little. Anyway, Im sure A
47 whiteguy : The B748 actually came through YYC yesterday from SEA, not sure if it's a regular thing! Exactly.
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
LH To Fly To YYC? posted Thu Jan 31 2008 00:11:30 by Boeingluvr
Rumour: LH To YYC posted Fri Aug 31 2007 17:53:59 by FraT
LH Cargo To Axe KHI, Fly To Guangzhou Via DEL posted Wed Sep 8 2004 18:16:33 by Vimanav
LH To Sell 2 A340 posted Tue Jan 17 2012 06:08:24 by bavair
China Airlines To Axe Taipei-London Route? posted Tue Jan 10 2012 07:32:14 by LondonCity
AirAsia X Plans To Axe LGW, ORY, DEL, BOM -Report posted Mon Dec 19 2011 15:22:19 by airpearl
LH To Open Shenyang And Qingdao posted Tue Nov 22 2011 08:32:54 by stylo777
LH To Axe London-Dresden Service posted Wed Oct 19 2011 08:32:36 by LondonCity
Rumor: LH To Start Phasing Out B744s Fleet! posted Thu Sep 22 2011 01:38:59 by LHPII
LH To Use 5th A380 To JFK. posted Thu Dec 9 2010 11:54:45 by jfk777