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Yugoslav Airlines Back In Croatia...  
User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1394 times:

According to Croatian News Agency, Yugoslav Airlines (JAT) will have a promotional flight from Belgrade (BEG) to Pula (PUY) this month.
Regular flights will be scheduled for the next year.
It is a "come back" of JAT in Croatia after the war 1991-1995, and it is very important because croatian airports ZAG, DBV, SPU and PUY were their main hubs in ex-Yugoslavia.


20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineStretch 8 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2568 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1295 times:

I'll stick with CTN for my travel into and out of Hrvatska. Why the hell would I want to go to Belgrade?


Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1291 times:

I agree with you, stretch 8...
I put the subject here just to announce the return of (once respected) airline who had 80% of air traffic in and out of Croatia.
If you ask me, they can go down and dissapear with their 24 years average old fleet...


User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1284 times:

Perhaps there will be leisure travellers market for Istrian peninsula - Pula, Rovinj, Motovun, etc. Those are the some of the most beautiful spots in Mediterenian region, and perhaps wealthy tourists from Yugoslavia would like to spend their vacations there.

I'm also glad to hear about new/old/old-new visitor at Valtura. The earliest childhood aviation memories tie are exactly from Pula airport; back when it was small, but crowded with western charters in summer. These same JAT aircrafts used to be nice looking ones on the apron.

Also, its wierd to find out today that many of airliners.net users are not familiar with airstars on aircrafts; back some 26-7 years ago, the airstairs used to be one of the main ways for boarding at Pula airport.


On the issue of JAT, I agree. It is outdated, terribly mismanaged airline out of its era, which despirately needs improvements in every aspect of its existance.

At any rate, good news for aviation industry in the region.


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Stretch 8: Why the hell would I want to go to Belgrade?

I don't know, maybe to atone for the illegal NATO bombing there, couple years ago  Big grin

(and btw, still nearly a million refugees living in Serbia, including a couple hundred thousand from Krajina, Croatia. No need to rabidly demonise everybody there, even if that's what 'Western' media's been so shrill about encouraging, the past several years and continuing).

As for JAT, of course needs all kinds of work, time, and money to recover and adapt to the marketplace (the whole country does, after devastating sanctions for nearly ten years). So what d'you expect. Anyway a few things positive, at least good to see they're focusing more on the European market, even the N.Am one, rather than the silly political stuff like Beijing flights they used to do a short while ago.

It's gutsy of them to fly in to PUY. Too bad OU doesn't yet reciprocate,if not to BEG, then at least to places like ATH, and SOF, and OTP (all those're way bigger than ZAG, and notably missing from OU's route map. Heck even TIA too, if they really want to show some goodwill  Big grin




User currently offlineCB777 From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1216 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1266 times:

Do you think OU will fly to BEG since JAT is going to Croatia?


CB777


User currently offlineMonte From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1268 times:

Wouldn't BEG-ZAG be more profitable for JAT? Unfortunately, it is difficult to imagine a significant number of Serbs spending their holidays in Croatia anytime soon.

User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

I will answer to all of you...

First, Mark_D. Sorry, but this is aviation, not political forum. You say that JAT droped political, non-profitable, let's-just-fly-anywhere flight from Belgrade to Bejing. At the same time, you think it would be smart for CTN to "show some good will" and start flying to Bucharest, Athens, Sofia, Tirana... Wouldn't that be the same? What do you think, how many people travel from ZAG to OTP or TIA? A few, but not daily, weekly... By the way, CTN had ZAG-TIA and ZAG-SKP-TIA flight some years ago, but it was nothing but loss.
Those times are long gone...

When it comes to ZAG-BEG flight, the latest market research shows that it's still too early. It's not because of the low interest, but because of the very strong and complicated visa regulations between Yugoslavia and Croatia. Those things will be solved this year (hopefully) and we can expect ZAG-BEG flight maybe next spring.
Business between two countries is getting stronger and stronger every day, and as soon as they drop this visa system, you can expect daily BEG-ZAG (maybe even JU/OU codeshare) flights...

There is a lot of people from YU who want to spend vacations in Croatia. Most of them still own houses or apartments on the coast, and cheap charters are the best solution for them. I belive that BEG-PUY, or maybe BEG-SPU or specially BEG-DBV flights will be 100% booked during the summer season, no doubt.

For the end, Mark_D. again... My friend, please leave those "refugee" and "NATO bombing" stories for the bars in your village in Serbia... Of course, if you'll ever be brave enough to come back to your homeland...


User currently offlineWhite Eagle From Australia, joined May 2001, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 3 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1264 times:

Croflight,

It's funny that you did not correct Stretch8 when he made his "why the hell would I go to Belgrade" comment, which is clearly a nationalist comment.

I don't understand why you feel you need to demean Mark.D by effectivily calling him a peasent and a coward. It's you who have overstepped the mark by venturing to make nationalistic non-aviation comments.

Of course the sanctions and the NATO bombing are going to affect JAT. God only knows where "Kroacija Erlajnz" would be if ZAG had been bombed and under sanctions for ten years.

By the way, when is Croatia Airlines going to pay for all the infrastructure that JAT "left behind" when Croatia seceeded like the JAT terminals at Zagreb, Split, Dubrovnik, Pula, Rijeka etc or the training costs that JAT paid for OU pilots and stewardesses as well as the numerous hotels illegally confiscated from JAT and other Serbian-owned properties on the coast? You forget how many numerous JAT offices were converted overnight into "Croatia Airlines" offices complete with computer equipment and other valuable resources ready to go.

The truth is that you Croats harbour a secret nostalgia about JAT which is why you as a Croat even initiated a thread about a Serbian airline. Admit it Croflight - you love JAT.  Smokin cool


User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1246 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

> Of course the sanctions and the NATO bombing are going to affect JAT. God only knows where "Kroacija Erlajnz" would be if ZAG had been bombed and under sanctions for ten years. well - Croatia Airlines had to move its operations first to Maribor, and then to Graz due to serbian invasion
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jerolitsch Thomas

later in 1995. the Zagreb airport (and the center of Zagreb) was taget of Serbian rockets with cluster filling (which is not exactly a weapon which can be used under international agreements)



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1245 times:

CroFlight

Hiya CroFlight,

I will answer to all of you...

Yeah, especially me  Big grin

First, Mark_D. Sorry, but this is aviation, not political forum.

You're right it is, but since civil aviation is big business and since business is affected heavily by political situations, and finally as White Eagle already mentioned a bit about, I wouldn't have said a thing if Stretch8 hadn't've gone to town (excuse the pun) with his "why the hell would I want to go" snide remark which you seconded, even spreaded over to JAT itself. So y'see, you started it, not me.

Secondly (and I want to get done with this politics stuff, to move on to just the business and aviation part) I do wish Croatia the best, now that it's a country, and I am glad it's proven to be such a phenomenal tourist season so far, auguring really well for the future and yes the Dalmatian and Istrian coastline is an absolute jewel, I think even the most hardened Chetnik would agree with that assessment  Big grin So by all means, let it get visited and enjoyed and by as many people near and far, as possible in the years to come. It'll be good for everybody.

Politically the country does have some issues to work, and you only harm your own interests by denying it. For Croatia to be an open and welcoming member of the European community (you see it does take more than just beautiful coastline and mountains, alone), needs to be not just a welcoming, positive, and accommodating attitude generally, but also and maybe more difficult, an open reconciling with the past as well, everything from coming to terms with and repatriating the hundreds of thousands of Krajina refugees, --yes that's what they are, what else would you call them anyway-- to reestablishing previously-severed bilateral ties with Serbia and Montenegro --and yes you mention the business interests are starting to move the politics aside, I agree and am glad it's finally happening. I don't know how difficult procedurally it is for Croats visiting Yugoslavia but I do know the other way round is quite involved, in fact even to the point of an American multinational having the YU contingent fly via Munich rather than go through Croatia on the way to their annual regional business-holiday reunion meeting in Ljubljana and then on to Skiing at Kranska Gora or Austria, simply because it was less hassle.

And then even to just some honest appraisals about not just Domovinski Rat, that it wasn't all total roses and valour for lijepa nasa, especially not with Franjo around and even in some cases not these days still, as we see these days with difficulties facing the Mirko Norac and Ante Gotovina indictments. Even down to as well finally dedicating some overdue resources to commemorating Jasenovac, you know just so it's not others that have to continually take the initiative there.

And finally, yes the NATO bombing was illegal, you don't do yourself any good trying to make light of something like that, especially not when relegating it just to the domain of 'stories for bars in Serbia'. Or for that matter defeat yourself in one sentence by first calling me a friend then a few short words later say I'm not brave enough to go visit my homeland, which btw you only make your own self look again look childish and rabid in assuming. Does not help you at all, to do such a thing.


Anyway though, back now to the aviation, I think it would be great if there was something as flexible as a OU-JAT codeshare for ZAG-BEG. The TIA suggestion I was actually just joking, yes I don't think there's route traffic demand there to justify it, probably not even just weekly, and not for a number of years yet , anyway. SOF a similar prospect, though finally some expatriates (and not just King Simeon, either) back there now and really trying to get the economy turned around. so maybe it could be a business prospect for OU, say maybe for companies like Mercator looking to expand, and especially if Balkan Air still has to endure its current difficulties after the disastrous years of the Teevi buyout. For OTP, I think could be a potential destination if maybe ZAG a midway stopover for Italian business having interests in both Croatia as well as Romania. And ATH, the giant airport of the whole region these days, seems to me that would make even more sense as a potential OU destination, not just for Greek business travel but also a vacation destination, particularly for the Olympics in a few years' time.


Anyway I wonder about all this because I wonder what OU does with its Airbuses in the October-March months, when it's off-season and not just most Europeans are working but also Adriatic coast too chilly for most to visit, much less swim in the sea. Just seems to me the load factors go way down, so that was another reason I figured maybe the airline might be interested in focussing on prospective business travel, even if only with weekly flights, to other major cities in the Balkans during that time.




User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

For Mark_D...

Actualy, I just wanted to avoid politics. In the other hand, I agree with 99% of the stuff you wrote. There's been lots of crimes during the last 11 years in ex-Yu, and we can just hope that whoever did it will pay.

Back to aviation...

As you could probably read between the lines in my previous posts, I am really looking forward to see JU back in Croatia. Yugoslavia and Croatia, as two neighbour countries in the region, will become (no doubt) the most important economical partners in the near future. The air traffic goes together with it.

I belive that you heard about SEEA (South East European Airlines), the initiative about joining the national airlines of Slovenia, Croatia, Yugoslavia and Hungary (not sure about Bulgaria...) into one airline.
The meetings between the airlines were allready held in Belgrade and Ljubljana, and there is some prospect.
According to the very poor reports from those meetings, Budapest would be the main transcontinental hub (Malev is the only one between those airlines with LR aircrafts, if you don't count on JAT's DC10 which will probably be written-off soon), Ljubljana and Zagreb would be management and education centers, Belgrade maintenance etc.
I personaly find the idea very nice (and economicaly smart), but I also understand the big doubts from the side of Croatia Airlines. All companies should be involved with all their economical power and properties, but OU wants all sides to share equaly. That wouldn't be the problem for OU, MA and JP, but JU just can't follow.
Since all those airlines are owned by their governments, going into it without "equal share" agreement means direct investment of Croatia into Yugoslavia, Slovenia into Hungary, Hungary into Croatia and all the way like that...
Another problem (also mentioned on the meetings) is "one fleet" and "one livery". All existing companies would (visualy) dissapear, and there would be only SEEA aircrafts on the sky.
You know us, croats... We like our red-and-white squares on the sky. Also, people here are skeptical about any possible "joining together" in the area of ex-Yugoslavia, and SEEA looks just like that.

I'm a big airlines fan, and SEEA is an idea that I will allways stand for. I think we should all look into the future, and we shouldn't let the "bad" past to destroy possible good projects that might be developed.
If SEEA idea won't be realized, all mentioned airlines will have an uncertain future.

Mark-D, I wish all the best for you and your family wherever you are. Maybe we even meet one day...


User currently offlineAviationIvi From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 777 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1230 times:

Hi guys,
just came back from ZAG and saw a Canadian Air Force A310. I´ll be there again soon and I REALLY hope that they will open the observation deck!
Regards from FRA
Ivica


User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1228 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Air traffic between Croatia and Yugoslavia will certainly appear but I believe that for beggining it would be better if these routes were operated by airlines that re not flag carrieets - Aviogenex and Air Adriatic (if it starts ops)


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1223 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

aviationiv - let me know when you will be at Zagreb


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
User currently offlineAviationIvi From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 777 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1223 times:

ok, I will let you know next time. maybe in 3 or 4 weeks again.
Ivica


User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1209 times:

Hey, 9A-CRO...

You really think that OU will give this oportunity to somebody else?
Ha, if there is any profit in those flights (and we can expect ZAG-BEG full 100%), they will keep it for themselves..

Anyway, I doubt that Air Adriatic will ever fly, and Aviogenex... do they still exist?


User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1203 times:

Uh, that was some message...

I agree with you in lots of things: JAT really had (and still has) a hard time because of the bombing and the sanctions. It's a mirracle how it survived trough those years.
As 9A-CRO wrote, Croatia Airlines also had problems, and had to move all it's operations to Klagenfurt in 1991/1992. Still, it can't be compared with 10 years sanctions.
I think we cannot discuss "stolen" property, not here. The question is what is "stolen"? JAT was yugoslav national airline, mostly financed trough federal budget, since JAT never had enough money for self-finance. As Mark_D. wrote, JAT was flying mostly political flights, like Bejing, Beirut and lots of other unprofitable lines. The number of commercialy valuable flights was not big enough to cover the losses of the political ones.
Let's go back to budget... We all know that more than 50% of it was filled up by Slovenia and Croatia. You still think that JAT's property in Croatia is stolen? Last year there was a meeting of ex-yu government representatives, about the succesion of ex-yu properties. There was a also a discussion about JAT's property, and that is the prove of what I wrote above!
Don't make me mention INA's gas stations (more than 90), Varteks' shops (56), Kras' shops (12), and so on, and so on...
Hotels and resorts on the croatian coast are mostly returned back to their previous owners (as asked from Croatia by MMF), and some of it was solved trough compensation between countries.
JAT property was also mostly solved trough compensation, because nobody was interested in taking some DC-9's or similar...
It seems that you are not very well informed, nothing else. The things are better than you thought...

Do I love JAT? In a way, yes. JAT wasn't an agressor, JAT didn't shoot at my house, and didn't kill anybody. Why should I hate it? Because of the nice memories from my childhood, it will allways be one of my favourites...

Hope to hear from you soon!



User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1198 times:


CroFlight

I belive that you heard about SEEA (South East European Airlines), the initiative about joining the national airlines of Slovenia, Croatia, Yugoslavia and Hungary (not sure about Bulgaria...) into one airline.

I haven't heard it by that name though, just something a bit less formal like "aliansa zrakoplovnih prijevoznika Balkanske regije", and last news about it I can see anyway from the beginning of this year, Croatia Airlines wasn't interested in pursuing it.

So if this is recent news say maybe reported online in Vecernji-list or Vjesnik or Nacional, I'd appreciate a link to it. It could be politics (again.. though this time from the Western Europeans instead), related to recent JAA membership entry for Croatia, I don't know. All kinds of back-room deals go on it seems, sometimes.

Anyway obviously OU is a fresh symbol of the country's new political status the past decade, so of course it'd be tough to give up so soon. Actually I can't much see the MALEV guys being too happy about giving up theirs either. And TAROM's I guess not included in this, and for sure not Olympic, so doesn't seem like that comprehensive an alliance plan. I don't know what the deal is these days, with Balkan Air. I'll try to find out more.

I'm a big airlines fan

Yeah I like this aviation too, all kinds of angles to it, from technical to human to political, even to business. Anyway I'm looking around for more Balkans-related aviation news, including any on that 'alliance', naturally!


Pozdrav od Marka


User currently offlineCroFlight From Croatia, joined Jul 2001, 275 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1190 times:

Hey...

The info I gave you about SAAE is about two months old, and I can't give you any links...
As soon as I find something new, I'll post it!

We both mentioned CTN not being too happy about the idea... But, since croatian government is doing exactly what EU says lately, it wouldn't surprise me if they become very interested soon...


User currently offline9A-CRO From Croatia, joined Jun 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (13 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1192 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Croatia joining SEEA would be very stupid move - Croatia is a touristic country and airline is part of infrastructure - it can just let that routes flown are controlled from Budapest or even worse Belgrade


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
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