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Lost Mainline Flights For UA/CO At CLE  
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5752 times:

Just bumming around at flightaware and I've noticed that some destinations don't see mainline anymore from CLE like they did in the past: LGA, BOS, DCA, BWI to name a few. I'm sure there are plenty of others that used to see CO 737s in the past that don't anymore.

Some destinations still see it: FLL, EWR, IAH, LAX, LAS, PHX, ORD, DEN etc.

Also I want to point out that as of april CLE-MCO/LAX/SFO will be operated by airbusses as opposed to the 737s and in certain cases, 753s which we currently see now.

So what's next on the chopping block at CLE? Some say DEN is going to go first but there really isn't that much more mainline to cut at CLE anymore!


"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2356 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5713 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Thread starter):
BWI

At one point, BWI saw a 757-300 that typically ran BWI-CLE-LAS and return.

Sporadic mainline comes back to BOS and LGA in the next few months, however.


User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3369 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5703 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Thread starter):
CLE like they did in the past: LGA, BOS

LGA still sees a daily mainline 738.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5611 times:

Quoting Flight152 (Reply 2):

not seeing it for today -- only ERJs...



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlinehhslax2 From Bahrain, joined Jan 2012, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5418 times:

Didn't the merger only guarantee "hub" status at CLE through 2012? If so, are we likely to see a lot of cuts starting January 2013?

User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

Quoting hhslax2 (Reply 4):

Didn't the merger only guarantee "hub" status at CLE through 2012? If so, are we likely to see a lot of cuts starting January 2013?

Im not sure but I thought it was some 5 year guarantee or something....

Not too many regional cuts thus far though.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineFlight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3369 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5017 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 3):
not seeing it for today -- only ERJs...
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/U...3/history/20120124/1303Z/KCLE/KLGA


User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service, aside from hub-hub, Florida, and the West Coast. Many major business markets like ATL, ORD, PHL, DTW, etc. have seen little more than pithy 50 seat RJ service for the last decade or so. On the other hand, recently de-hubbed markets like PIT (US), STL (TW/AA), SJU (AA), LAS (HP/US), and the nearly de-hubbed CVG (DL) and MEM (NW/DL) all had significant levels mainline service into the mid-2000s. These markets had so many flights at their peak that it took years of cuts to eliminate all of the flights, with many markets getting downgraded to outsourced RJs before being eliminated entirely. I think CLE is almost at a point where it could be cut in one fell swoop, a la DL at DFW.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinexms3200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4945 times:
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I am sure there are a lot of CO CLE employees that think the CLE hub wil last forever and give them a really good retirement. CLE really is out of touch with reality

User currently offlinexms3200 From Sweden, joined Apr 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4900 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Maybe now, with AA declaring bankruptcy, and even, highly respected SWA and it's CEO talking about cost structure will the CLE employees realize they are overpaid for flinging bags or tearing tickets and telling pax. to have a good day. This might be a rude awakeninig for CLE.

User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 2974 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

CO flew CLE-BDL seasonally for quite some time, and they flew ALB-CLE seasonally as well.


E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinencflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

xms3200 I don't get your point or your evidence that CLE is out of touch with reality-- people in CLE starting with business and local leaders are well aware how tenuous the hub is here.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2221 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4844 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

xms3200 I don't get your point or your evidence that CLE is out of touch with reality-- people in CLE starting with business and local leaders are well aware how tenuous the hub is here.

perhaps this might be reason enough for CLE to stick around if its right sized as it is? Is there any evidence that CO/UA doesnt make money at CLE? Even at best its a pretty minimal hub, more like a large focus city, but would they just pull the plug on capturing all that traffic they have now and hand it over to other airlines or an LCC to expand? I guess that remains to be seen...


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4450 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 12):

Smisek told CLE "you are not god" which basically means screw you (if the opportunity calls for it.)

No real need for CLE mini hub to exist other than connections to a few great lakes and rust belt destinations -- most of that can easily be handed by ORD.

As said, CO never treated CLE like a real hub either. It had a brief expansion period in 2007 and 2008 and was quickly drawn back. So much for "alleviating" the EWR hub.

On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6578 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Quoting ncflyer (Reply 11):
what's interesting to me is that many non-hub airports such as CMH and PIT seem to offer as many seats to the major business destinations as CLE. CMH easily has as many or more seats to ATL and LGA and DFW. This to me is proof the "hub" is sized for the local market and not connecting pax.

That's not an entirely accurate analysis, as the "major business destinations" you cite are generally also hub airports, and as such, they carry connecting traffic on other carriers from CMH to destinations where CO/UA still offers non-stop service from CLE (i.e. CMH lacks non-stops to SFO, and clearly AA is going to be carrying some CMH passengers to SFO via DFW). There's also a bit of a mismatch to ATL & LGA in that FL captures a big chunk of Northeast Ohio traffic to those airports at CAK, without a similar alternative at CMH.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4355 times:

EWR partially explains why CLE never saw a significant mainline presence to the East Coast. CO didn't need a massive connecting hub at CLE to provide access to the East Coast like DTW did for NW. They had EWR.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5223 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

Gosh, does this mean that perhaps SAN will lose our ~ 12 flights per year (around Christmas?) I've never been sure if this route even deserves to be classified as "seasonal" or not. (I know that SDIA's web site doesn't list it as such, or even as a nonstop destination from SAN.)

Win a few, lose a few.

bb


User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4045 times:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
I am sure there are a lot of CO CLE employees that think the CLE hub wil last forever and give them a really good retirement. CLE really is out of touch with reality

Source?

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
Maybe now, with AA declaring bankruptcy, and even, highly respected SWA and it's CEO talking about cost structure will the CLE employees realize they are overpaid for flinging bags or tearing tickets and telling pax. to have a good day. This might be a rude awakeninig for CLE.

Your typically rude comment...paid higher than those at other CO locations or something?


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5214 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.

Yields are too. 23.09 cents/mile at CLE, compared to 17.28 at DEN for Q2, 2011. RJs actually have a shot at making money in CLE.



Consilivm: Cave ne nothi te vexant
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4878 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3762 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):


The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service

If you go back far enough, CO/CLE was primarily 737/DC-9 service with a few Brasilias thrown in.

http://www.departedflights.com/CLE89intro.html



Next Up: STL-TPA-BWI-PWM-BWI-STL
User currently offlineNorthwest727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3716 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 7):
The interesting thing about the CLE hub is that it has never hosted much mainline service, aside from hub-hub, Florida, and the West Coast.

I disagree. Having grown up in CLE, and living under the (then) 23L approach, I plainly remember seeing DC-9s, 737s, 727s, and MD-80s going into CLE. Regionals were fewer and consisted of mostly EMB-120s and B-1900Ds. Then about late 1997 into 1998, the ERJs started to appear, and little did I know at the time, that was the beginning of the end for mainline service at CLE.


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2492 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3658 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
Gosh, does this mean that perhaps SAN will lose our ~ 12 flights per year (around Christmas?) I've never been sure if this route even deserves to be classified as "seasonal" or not. (I know that SDIA's web site doesn't list it as such, or even as a nonstop destination from SAN.)

Within a few days, those flights booked up. CO used to run a evening west/redeye east, but when the east was changed to a daytime flight its days were numbered as the redeye required no airplane time.
Too bad UA can't run at least a summer CLE-SAN service. It would sell, even if the yield was low.
Regarding CLE, if the RJs make money, why pull the plug? CO/UA own CLE and have a good FF base. WN has little presence there. Yields must be good and I doubt CMH is a high yielding market. My wife's relatives seem to book into CAK or CMH at times due to lower prices.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8090 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3590 times:

Quoting xms3200 (Reply 8):
CLE really is out of touch with reality

What?! CLE knows exactly where it belongs and what it's capable of, that's why it's perfectly happy with the level of service it's had for years. It's the people who think EWR and ORD are superior alternatives that are out of touch. You realize that Newark is quite possibly the worst airport on the planet, right? And that ORD runs hours-long delays constantly? You think the people who want to cram themselves through these miserable chokepoints are more "in touch" than people who see an easier alternative at CLE?

We're such knee-jerk reactionaries on this forum. PIT lost its hub, and it did so OBVIOUSLY. When CLE starts taking 40%+ cuts, then we can have this discussion. In the meantime, though, Cleveland has seen ups and downs for the entire time it's been a CO hub. It never had the level of mainline service other hubs had, and it never had 300+ flights. If UA can "right-size" Cleveland, they'll keep it. If they can't, they'll drop it- it's the same for any business ever conceived of in a capitalist market. It's obnoxious to see "UA replaced a 737 with an ERJ oh surely it's the end of Cleveland they're just too stupid to see it" constantly.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinejoeman From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3320 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 18):
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
On the bright side, O&D is strong at CLE so maybe they won't be in such a rush to downsize it.

Yields are too. 23.09 cents/mile at CLE, compared to 17.28 at DEN for Q2, 2011. RJs actually have a shot at making money in CLE.
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
Smisek told CLE "you are not god" which basically means screw you (if the opportunity calls for it.)

Has he given DEN a similar arrogant and condescending speech?


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3308 times:

Quoting joeman (Reply 23):

Has he given DEN a similar arrogant and condescending speech?

I don't think he has. Only CLE because the hub being squished between ORD, EWR, and IAD led to questions by the city of whether UA will abandon the hub.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
25 enilria : I believe they are released in October 2012 or around there.
26 joeman : (I think you're right...) But the highly publicized negative attention given by the local media surrounding that speech is the only thing I can think
27 gigneil : CLE is a great connecting facility. If they can make money there, great. If they cannot, dump it immediately. In this economy nobody "deserves" anythi
28 joeman : I agree completely (same should be true for any other facility) and end the decade or more years of threats that have soured CLE dedication
29 izbtmnhd : What's the news here Tommy? Are you surprised DEN is seeing cuts before CLE? The object is profitability, right? Could it be that with 8 US hubs, may
30 Post contains links fun2fly : A few folks working hard to make the hub stay in CLE. http://www.gcpartnership.com/Economi...Development/United-for-United.aspx http://www.gcpartnersh
31 Post contains links STT757 : A lucrative part of PMCO, now UA's, business is in catering to the energy sector. Northeast Ohio and Western Pennsylvania , according to some, is on t
32 fun2fly : Not sure of your point here, but let's remember what CAK is...1mm pax and CLE is 11mm pax. If CAK closes, WN and DL and UA would simply just move tha
33 TOMMY767 : Whoa, calm down there. I actually stuck up for CLE in saying that the O&D is strong so they might keep it around. DEN is a whole different animal
34 eldanno : On the other hand, by the early 90's you could catch an A300 to DEN or EWR. Other big birds came in as well if I recall correctly.[Edited 2012-01-27
35 joeman : Nice...I would include the hard working CLE CO employees (torn a new one in the disgraceful replies # 8 and 9 of this thread) who've won performance
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