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Is YTZ-BUF Feasible?  
User currently offlinedarkroast From Canada, joined Jan 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Given the number of people (mostly families) that drive over to Buffalo from Toronto in search of cheaper fares, wouldn't there be a good market for Porter to fly a shuttle YTZ-BUF? At roughly 50nm, this would be a pretty quick flight over the lake and should have a block time around 25 minutes. Would a fare of roughly $40 per person each way be economic for one of Porter's Q400s?

For someone living in Toronto, this saves the drive to Buffalo, and parking costs for the week or more (~$80 per vehicle) and the time/fuel savings both ways. Not hard to make a business case for this. YTZ might need to have preclearance for this to work, but this should happen shortly anyway.

Thoughts?

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2294 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 2978 times:

Quoting darkroast (Thread starter):
Would a fare of roughly $40 per person each way be economic for one of Porter's Q400s?

That wouldn't cover the fees and taxes, would it?

This is a no go IMO.


User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

You'll never see it. The ferry to rochester didn't last, with air fares the way they are in Canada, there's no real "cheap" link like you had mentioned. With taxes and fees, a 40$ fare could be around 120$ or more.

The only place you can see things like this work is on the west coast with Harbour air and Westcoast air sea-planes, who are able to provide low fares due to the sea-plane model. The drive really isn't that bad.

Hope this helps!


User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 hours ago) and read 2847 times:

Agreed. I would pay $40 to make this trip but with taxes & fees you would not see this fare unfortunately.

User currently offlinedarkroast From Canada, joined Jan 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 2811 times:

Quoting pnd100 (Reply 3):

I meant $40 plus taxes, but you're probably right that the taxes would kill it. Rochester didnt work largely because you dont have as many flight choices out of there as you do from BUF. I guess it would come down to a business case based on gas/mileage/parking. Even assuming $0.40 per km for a minivan, a trip out to BUF would be $75 or so each way, tolls are another $5 and parking in BUF around $70 per week. So, assuming the average minivan has 4 people, that's $45 or so saved per person. Probably wont even cover one-way taxes, but would you then not be able to sell the difference on the convenience factor?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting heathrow (Reply 2):
With taxes and fees, a 40$ fare could be around 120$ or more.
Quoting pnd100 (Reply 3):
Agreed. I would pay $40 to make this trip but with taxes & fees you would not see this fare unfortunately.

Did a quick calculation to see what an $80 round trip YTZ-BUF-YTZ fare would total after all the taxes/fees are added. And on transborder fares, the U.S. taxes fees are much higher and much more numerous than the Canadian taxes/fees. The $80 fare would become $178.60.

Fare (what Porter keeps) - $80
Canadian taxes/fees - $38.70 (government taxes/fees plus $20.00 YTZ airport improvement fee)
U.S. taxes/fees - $59.90 (government taxes/fees plus $4.50 BUF airport passenger facility charge)

Total - $178.60

[Edited 2012-01-26 18:07:13]

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

For porter I think EWR serves this purpose and as someone who has flown porter many times i always see people asking questions where other airlines are once in Newark. At 330 miles from YTZ i think EWR serves this same purpose just fine and has non-stops to so many more cities on more airlines.

User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 2655 times:

Pretty much all the major points were touched on above.

But one other factor to consider: slots. With so few left at Porter's disposal, it would likely not be worth it to use them up on a route that would likely yield so little.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinedarkroast From Canada, joined Jan 2011, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 hour ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Did a quick calculation to see what an $80 round trip YTZ-BUF-YTZ fare would total after all the taxes/fees are added. And on transborder fares, the U.S. taxes fees are much higher and much more numerous than the Canadian taxes/fees. The $80 fare would become $178.60.

Fare (what Porter keeps) - $80
Canadian taxes/fees - $38.70 (government taxes/fees plus $20.00 YTZ airport improvement fee)
U.S. taxes/fees - $59.90 (government taxes/fees plus $4.50 BUF airport passenger facility charge)

Total - $178.60

Thanks Viscount724.

Here's the math on the "drive" side:
1. 175kms each way @$0.40 per km = $140 r/t
2. Parking at BUF/tolls = $80
Total = $220.

For 2 persons, that would be $110 per person, so the premium is ($178-$110) is $68 per person. The $68 essentially saves you about 3.5 hours of your time. You could make a case for that.
For 3 persons, the premium is $104 per person. Still somewhat reasonable.
For 4 persons, the premium is $115 per person. Still reasonable.

The idea being that the YTZ-BUF offering would sit in-between a flight out of Pearson and a drive to BUF.

Question is, can Porter profitably do a 50nm run for $40.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 7):

But one other factor to consider: slots. With so few left at Porter's disposal, it would likely not be worth it to use them up on a route that would likely yield so little.

  
This is why this idea is a no-go, even if the demand was there.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

You also have to factor in transportation from the person's home to YTZ. Most families that drive to BUF do not live in (or anywhere near) downtown Toronto....by the timeyou factor in the time for transit to YTZ and needing to check-in at least 1.5 hours before the flight plus additional time to clear customs and immigration at YTZ or BUF and transit BUF your time savings is pretty much gone.

User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2428 times:

YTZ is very convenient for business traffic especially day trip people or people in downtown. Of course there are some but generally the multi passenger families or groups who would want to save money and fly thru BUF are coming from the suburbs not downtown area. People who can afford to live downtown or downtown business traffic will probably fly non-stop and just leave from one of the Toronto airports. If you are a family in the suburbs its likely you would hit traffic getting to YTZ anyway you mine as will roll that time into driving to BUF or IAG (Niagra Falls NY) if you are really looking to save money and the tax savings will probably pay for gas especially for families since its multi ticket savings.

BUF does not really offer that many options anyway especially when you compare it to somewhere like EWR. EWR has non-stops to a rediculous amount of destinations so the one stop is so much better for the people. Plus EWR has jetblue and southwest now so there are two LCCs on top of Uniteds amazing portfolio of one stop options so i think EWR is the better option in almost everyway over BUF.


User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2159 times:

I think another major point that would hinder this, even if it were 80$ with tax round trip, no pre clearance at YTZ. Who is going to want to fly an hour to Buffalo, pick up their bag, clear u.s. customs, and continue on? Just as easy to drive!

User currently offlineYYZYYT From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2047 times:

Quoting darkroast (Reply 8):
Thanks Viscount724.

Here's the math on the "drive" side:
1. 175kms each way @$0.40 per km = $140 r/t
2. Parking at BUF/tolls = $80
Total = $220.

For 2 persons, that would be $110 per person, so the premium is ($178-$110) is $68 per person. The $68 essentially saves you about 3.5 hours of your time. You could make a case for that.
For 3 persons, the premium is $104 per person. Still somewhat reasonable.
For 4 persons, the premium is $115 per person. Still reasonable.

The idea being that the YTZ-BUF offering would sit in-between a flight out of Pearson and a drive to BUF.

Question is, can Porter profitably do a 50nm run for $40.

that ignores the remaining costs - transportation to YTZ and/or parking there (I understand parking is now possible... but BUF parking is pretty cheap)

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 11):
YTZ is very convenient for business traffic especially day trip people or people in downtown. Of course there are some but generally the multi passenger families or groups who would want to save money and fly thru BUF are coming from the suburbs not downtown area. People who can afford to live downtown or downtown business traffic will probably fly non-stop and just leave from one of the Toronto airports. If you are a family in the suburbs its likely you would hit traffic getting to YTZ anyway you mine as will roll that time into driving to BUF or IAG (Niagra Falls NY) if you are really looking to save money and the tax savings will probably pay for gas especially for families since its multi ticket savings.

I live to the west of Toronto - even easier to get to BUF, whereas YTZ involves fighting traffic into Toronto. Heck, even YYZ is more convenient than YTZ, for anyone living to the north or west.

Quoting heathrow (Reply 12):
I think another major point that would hinder this, even if it were 80$ with tax round trip, no pre clearance at YTZ. Who is going to want to fly an hour to Buffalo, pick up their bag, clear u.s. customs, and continue on? Just as easy to drive!

Also much easier to cross the border in a car.... plus when you return you can hit the duty free to load up on whatever you can without having to worry about transporting it on a flight. No point buying liquor in quantities of 3 oz or less.


User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 13):
Also much easier to cross the border in a car.... plus when you return you can hit the duty free to load up on whatever you can without having to worry about transporting it on a flight. No point buying liquor in quantities of 3 oz or less.

Or make the YQG crossing and fly out of DTW, passing by Walkerville  


User currently offlineyenne09 From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1856 times:

The route YTZ-BUF has been operated in the 80's by a company named Skywalker. They started their flights with Piper Chieftain ans after a while, replaced them with the Twin Otter. I flew on them in 1988 aboard a Twin Otter (series 200).

User currently offlineskymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 531 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1627 times:

Allegheny used to do YYZ BUF -- took it many times, and IIRC was a $19 flight BUT in the 1970's.

Not sure what that would translate to now. One benefit was US customs pre-clearance.



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlinenycdave From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 547 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1617 times:

Lot of good points... just to chip in a few others:

A lot of Torontonians who travel to BUF for flights take the bus -- which saves on parking, and greatly reduces the cost. Greyhound and Megabus both have routes that go direct from downtown Toronto to the airport at BUF precisely to take advantage of this market.

At the cost that would make this feasible for PD, I can't help but imagine that most of their pax would just as soon shell out an extra couple of loonies to fly to EWR and have a far broader range of flight options.

And by the by - I don't think the Rochester ferry was ever thought of as a potential airport link -- the transit time was too great, and would have required transportation between the ferry terminal and ROC anyways. The main intent was to try to hook Rochester into Toronto's economic vitality.


User currently offlineheathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 979 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1460 times:

Quoting nycdave (Reply 17):

And by the by - I don't think the Rochester ferry was ever thought of as a potential airport link -- the transit time was too great, and would have required transportation between the ferry terminal and ROC anyway. The main intent was to try to hook Rochester into Toronto's economic vitality.

I didn't mean it as an airport connection, just stating the fact that if we won't pay for a ferry and opt to drive instead, than no airline will be able to make fares work with taxes to have a feasible flight YTZ or even YYZ to BUF. It's not that bad a drive. I used to live in the North, and nearest airport was 3 hours, nearest international was 6.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25372 posts, RR: 22
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Quoting skymiler (Reply 16):
Allegheny used to do YYZ BUF -- took it many times, and IIRC was a $19 flight BUT in the 1970's.

Both Allegheny (US Air after their name change in 1979) and Eastern operated YYZ-BUF for years. At one time they each had about 6 flights a day on the route. Eastern even used the L-1011 on one or two YYZ-BUF flights for a while in the 1970s and 1980s. They continued to ATL. They only did that because in those days when transborder traffic rights were very limited they couldn't fly nonstop to many points further south, and with U.S. customs/immigration pre-clearance at YYZ the stop at BUF could be fairly short.

Using 1975 for example purposes, $19 then was equivalent to about $75 now. But in the 1970s there were no taxes or fees, at least for tickets sold in Canada. If the one way fare YYZ-BUF was $19, that's all you paid. On a round trip from Canada to the U.S. I think the only tax then was a $3 U.S. departure tax for the return trip. I think it was introduced sometime in the early '70s.

In the April 1, 1974 OAG there were 11 daily flights YYZ-BUF each way (7 Allegheny and 4 Eastern). In July 1983 there were 10 each way (6 US Air and 4 Eastern). The EA flights in 1983 included one A300 and one 757. The other flights on both carriers were a mix of 727-200s and DC-9-30/50s.


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Quoting skymiler (Reply 16):
Allegheny used to do YYZ BUF -- took it many times, and IIRC was a $19 flight BUT in the 1970's.

Not sure what that would translate to now. One benefit was US customs pre-clearance.

Using 1975 as the base year, it would be approximately $77 in today's dollars.

Quoting nycdave (Reply 17):
which saves on parking

Last weekend I paid $88 to park at YTZ from Friday at noon to early Monday morning. Never again....



Flying refined.
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