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WN Looking At International From HOU  
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9444 times:

http://www.khou.com/news/local/South...-Flights-From-Hobby-138160864.html

I wonder what UA's response will be...


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3019 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9044 times:

I'm sure WN will do some arm twisting to get FIS facilities at HOU. They can easily build some FIS gates at the terminal at HOU. They have space to build another concourse that will handle international flights. I wonder if Volaris or Interjet would be interested in starting flights at HOU if it does get FIS for commercial flights. Or Viva moving from IAH over to HOU.

Possible international routes WN/FL are probably looking to add from HOU are the same as in SAT, CUN and MEX. Houston-Mexico City is only flown by AM and UA. Houston-CUN only has UA.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8637 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Thread starter):
I wonder what UA's response will be...

Why anything?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2797 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 8584 times:

Not surprising at all. It shouldn't be a big ordeal to get FIS into HOU, but it will probably be a few years before any such facility would be available for WN and other possible tenants (like Mexican LCCs). In the meantime WN will have to route int'l traffic via nearby AUS and SAT, perhaps even MSY.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8513 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Why anything?

Historically down here its been a gentleman's agreement between CO and WN - sort of a "stay on your side of town, we will stay on ours" deal. UA's IAH hub is lucrative and a fortress, as we all know; and with WN attempting to set up an international operation that will lower costs on their monopoly routes...   
I suppose they could just stand by and watch their market share decrease to some of those south of the border destinations.



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8479 times:

Quoting drerx7 (Reply 4):
Historically down here its been a gentleman's agreement between CO and WN - sort of a "stay on your side of town, we will stay on ours" deal. UA's IAH hub is lucrative and a fortress, as we all know; and with WN attempting to set up an international operation that will lower costs on their monopoly routes...

I don't recall UA doing much of anything in "retaliation" for TZ's fairly robust international service from MDW, though.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8462 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
on't recall UA doing much of anything in "retaliation" for TZ's fairly robust international service from MDW, though.

On what international routes did they compete though?



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
On what international routes did they compete though?

A handful of cities in Mexico as well as SJU and STT (if you want to count those as international - let's not have that debate here). I can't recall whether TZ did LIR.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8418 times:

This is bigger than you thinks folks....WN wants into C. and northern S. America badly....but it has to be from a Central Gulf Coast position to maximize connections and stage lengths


When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16689 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 8375 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
A handful of cities in Mexico as well as SJU and STT (if you want to count those as international - let's not have that debate here). I can't recall whether TZ did LIR.

I don't remember much except perhaps CUN and MEX from UA from ORD, maybe SJU and STT on the same plane on Saturdays. The new UA with CO's network is much more focused on Mexico and Central America than UA ever was previously.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinereality From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7156 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):
This is bigger than you thinks folks....WN wants into C. and northern S. America badly

They seem to be talking only about Mexico, not South America or Central America.


User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6649 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 7):
A handful of cities in Mexico as well as SJU and STT (if you want to count those as international - let's not have that debate here). I can't recall whether TZ did LIR.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
I don't recall UA doing much of anything in "retaliation" for TZ's fairly robust international service from MDW, though.

I didn't think their service was 'robust' enough to illicit a response from anybody. Even if every TZ flight went out full, it wouldn't amount to a 10th of the UA flyer base in Chicago. I don't even think TZ service was daily?



Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 986 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5614 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
I don't recall UA doing much of anything in "retaliation" for TZ's fairly robust international service from MDW, though.

TZ never had the name and brand recognition WN has, not to mention its loyalty base. For another thing, UA has a lot of competition from Chicago anyway, and therefore probably isn't as lucrative as IAH, where they are without doubt the dominant force.

Because CO and now UA has had little to no competition on these routes for years, they've been able to name their prices. In Chicago, it's more than likely that any routes TZ ran, UA and AA also ran, if not other carriers. Now that their extensive, very profitable and successful Central/South American route network is in danger of competition from the dominant force across town at HOU, they have good reason to be worried, because WN will flood the market and undercut their prices.

In most other situations, UA couldn't object because they had nothing to object, like your example with TZ. In this case, it would require opening an FIS facility at HOU, which is an airport that has long been intended to be a national airport only -- IAH was built for the very purpose of replacing HOU, but once it reopened, IAH was still the international airport. So, if UA objects (which I'm guessing they will), they at least have a basis for the challenge.



If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you!
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5561 times:

Quoting reality (Reply 10):
They seem to be talking only about Mexico, not South America or Central America.

Not true. They are actively doing the groundwork on several C. and Northern South American destinations right now.

City pairs like HOU-SAL have the potential to be huge profit centers for WN, especially if you count the connecting traffic they can generate.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlinedrerx7 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5062 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

I could see UA attempting to leverage service at IAH against the City of Houston and H.A.S. to prevent an FIS from being opened at HOU. Hopefully, they will just fortify ops vs the political route.


Third Coast born, means I'm Texas raised
User currently offlineAmtrakGuy From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 500 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

According to HOU Master Plan, HOU could build FIS. Here's the quote I got from the brochure:

"Could also include a new FIS facility, if international flights be initiated"

You'll find this information on bottom part of first page (Under Terminal) at:

http://system.gocampaign.com/files/file.asp?f=11429

Read more detail of airport master plans, go to: http://www.fly2houston.com/about-master-plans


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 12):
because WN will flood the market and undercut their prices.

Which markets will WN "flood" (i.e. offer many times the capacity that CO dies)? It's not like they are going to go triple daily to BJX or QRO.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 12):
So, if UA objects (which I'm guessing they will), they at least have a basis for the challenge.

. . . except that the exact same was true at MDW when MDW got the new FIS and UA didn't say a word.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinejonathanxxxx From United States of America, joined Feb 2011, 672 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 8):
This is bigger than you thinks folks....WN wants into C. and northern S. America badly....but it has to be from a Central Gulf Coast position to maximize connections and stage lengths

Central America would be easily served through the Gulf Coast like you said but Northern South American cities such as BOG, PTY (not really but it's still pretty far), CCS (assuming they get rights), MDE and even GYE, CLO, MAO, and other Northern South American cities would be reached much easier from Florida. If WN wants those markets where they get the right O&D and connecting traffic mix, FLL and MCO are their best bets.


User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 986 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Which markets will WN "flood" (i.e. offer many times the capacity that CO dies)? It's not like they are going to go triple daily to BJX or QRO.

I'm talking about markets UA currently runs 1-2 daily 737s and has no competition. If WN also goes 1-2 daily, then there's 100% more seats running the route and no doubt at much deeper discounts. I believe that's the definition of flooding the market. Not only that, WN is known for going into markets very strong -- they never start with a weak presence.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
except that the exact same was true at MDW when MDW got the new FIS and UA didn't say a word.

But again, UA would have likely had direct competition from AA at ORD. TZ running a once daily from a different airport was of far less concern than ORD because AA is their direct competitor in the Chicago market. Well, WN is UA's direct competitor in the Houston market. HOU was closed and moved to IAH for the explicit purpose of moving to an airport that could handle the large amount of traffic. HOU reopened to domestic flights because of its convenience to Houston, but opening a FIS is completely redundant. LGA could very easily have FIS and run international flights, but that's why JFK and EWR exist...also why IAH exists.



If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4877 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 18):
LGA could very easily have FIS and run international flights, but that's why JFK and EWR exist...also why IAH exists.

. . . also why ORD exists. What's different?

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 18):
I'm talking about markets UA currently runs 1-2 daily 737s and has no competition.

That's a pretty small group. Which cities, specifically, are you thinking of?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 5881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4724 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
That's a pretty small group. Which cities, specifically, are you thinking of?

lets see in Mexico and C. America (and using avg freq)...CZM, MID, GUA, BZE, RTB, SAP, TGU, MGA, SAL, and a few others..you add some other IAH-Caribbean destinations to that list...GCM, MBJ, AUA, BON, CUR, POS...you have quite an impact



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
lets see in Mexico and C. America (and using avg freq)...CZM, MID, GUA, BZE, RTB, SAP, TGU, MGA, SAL, and a few others..

You really see WN in TGU or BZE?

By the way, I think TA flies IAH-RTB (but it may be seasonal).



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7318 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
lets see in Mexico and C. America (and using avg freq)...CZM, MID, GUA, BZE, RTB, SAP, TGU, MGA, SAL, and a few others..you add some other IAH-Caribbean destinations to that list...GCM, MBJ, AUA, BON, CUR, POS...you have quite an impact

Your idea of what WN will end up with assuming they can fly internationally from HOU is quite grandiose. I dont see that at all.

Whats more realistic is a few major cities in Mexico and the Caribbean.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1801 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4601 times:

Quoting yellowtail (Reply 20):
lets see in Mexico and C. America (and using avg freq)...CZM, MID, GUA, BZE, RTB, SAP, TGU, MGA, SAL, and a few others..you add some other IAH-Caribbean destinations to that list...GCM, MBJ, AUA, BON, CUR, POS...you have quite an impact

Well....while these may seem far fetched today, 10 years from now, I could arguably see WN in a fair number of these destinations. Ten years ago, no one ever thought WN would fly to LGA, EWR, BOS or fly to international destinations.

WN already carries the most domestic passengers of any carrier, so they have a good base to draw from to support many of these Central American / Caribbean destinations. Furthermore, many of these destinations focus on tourists or are VFR destinations (which is WN's bread and butter).

[Edited 2012-01-28 18:46:50]

User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
Furthermore, many of these destinations focus on tourists or are VFR destinations (which is WN's bread and butter).

How is VFR "WN's bread and butter?" For that matter, on what do you base the assertion that tourists are WN's bread and butter?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 EricR : WN grew by bringing affordable fares to the average person. They did not grow to where they are due to business travelers (though they have been gett
26 ScottB : And you're basically rehashing the reasons why ORD replaced MDW as Chicago's primary airport. One could easily argue that the FIS at MDW is "complete
27 atcsundevil : It's different because ORD is already incredibly busy and very delay-prone. It only made sense to allow Central American and North American int'l des
28 yellowtail : Yes. They have to grow somewhere. Remember there international model will be different that their domestic model. 1Xdaily flights will be the norm an
29 aeroblogger : This is a testament to how incredible Southwest's marketing department is. They cancel plenty of flights, and new international destinations won't co
30 EricR : Then you and I will have to disagree on this point. Calling out one of their original routes and using this as their standard is misleading. There is
31 Cubsrule : So 8 flights a day at MDW make an enormous difference in ORD delays? Sorry, this still doesn't add up. Much of your post - including this point - use
32 EricR : The point that you are taking out of context is that what got WN to where they are today is the consumer, not the business traveler. The list of dest
33 Cubsrule : But the "consumer" isn't why WN opened BOS, EWR and MSP, is he?
34 EricR : Considering BOS, EWR, MSP have a combined catchment area exceeding 15 million people - yes - it is absolutely about the consumer (though business cus
35 Cubsrule : Absolutely (though JAN doesn't belong on your list). It is an indication of how much WN's business model has changed. You apparently agree on that po
36 atcsundevil : Neither does the rationale of having the city spend millions to construct an FIS facility and international arrivals gates, as well as have the feder
37 Cubsrule : Wasn't the whole point of the FL purchase that FL is a proven international carrier?
38 hohd : The economy in Houston is good and needs the competition. The fares to Central America are consistently high and WN can provide good competition. A sm
39 ScottB : So then you would agree that it would make no sense to build another FIS at IAH in Terminal B, since it would serve only one airline and that job is
40 EricR : I am not doubting that WN serves business travelers, and I agree that business travelers like WN's frequency. However, that is not my point. My point
41 WNCrew : WN was developed around the needs of the short-haul business traveller. As a WN employee I can assure you that's where the focus WAS and IS in many w
42 Atrude777 : Southwest was already at SFO years before hand before they pulled out in 2001, only to re- enter in 2007. Also, if you're going to include SFO, why d
43 EricR : The same principle holds true for most of the cities you listed.......if business customers were the true target, why did WN serve PHX, STL, LAS, DEN
44 Atrude777 : LAS is a HUGE convention center where millions of people all over the world fly to Vegas to hold meetings and business trips. How can you ignore LAS
45 ScottB : WN originally started service to SFO in 1982. They dropped SFO in 2001 because the delays were out of control. If you want to cite major business des
46 totesen : Southwest Airlines parthner Volaris could beneffit from this. it would be great to be able to fly to Houston from MEX on Y4 and they offer a lot of c
47 EricR : Where did I say LAS has no business sector? I did not say this anywhere. You are jumping to conclusions that I did not say or insinuate in any way, s
48 Atrude777 : That's the point, you totally ignored LAS. You cherry picked cities you felt were strong business cities or stations that WN was late to the game in
49 EricR : No, you are missing the point. WN did not enter many major business destinations until recently. That is fact, and I listed several locations as exam
50 ScottB : I don't think I ever claimed that LAS was a "top business destination." I stated that "[t]hey entered cities like PHX, STL, MCI, and LAS long before
51 Atrude777 : Which I again reiterate, how can you ignore Vegas a "Major business destination" as well as Los Angeles and San Francisco. Are you telling me Los Ang
52 Post contains images lightsaber : I could definately see WN growing international from multiple airports, including HOU. Am I the only one who sees a difference in WN's business model
53 yellowtail : Contrary to popular belief carriers (including US ones) still pay commissions outside of the USA and even to a few select US wholesalers.
54 2travel2know2 : Well if HOU gets a F.I.S., then CM could fly its own metal to Houston. As they agreed they wouldn't fly to EWR (CO hub) when they started NYC and went
55 beardown91737 : The South Siders in Chicago's administration are partial to MDW. UA could not afford to keep MDW from being able to pick up some crumbs of internatio
56 Post contains images peanuts : Agreed. Between "WN/ATL" and "WN/Int'l Expansion" (mind you in some of UA's own back yard), the latter is a way bigger development and threat/adjustm
57 Post contains links EricR : This is precisely what I meant. Furthermore, WN did little until recently to MARKET to business travelers. Historically they offered little more than
58 EricR : How can ignore the fact WN, which you adamantly believe developed into the carrier it is today because of the business traveler, didn't start traveli
59 LoneStarMike : He came up with 19 years because that's about how long WN served SFO the first time around. (opened 10-31-1982 and closed 03-04-2001. LoneStarMike
60 2travel2know2 : If both UA @ ORD and WN @ MDW can survive, pretty sure it's highly likely that both UA @ IAH and WN @ HOU could operate to the same (international) ma
61 yellowtail : Yes, routes like HOU-SAL or HOU-SAP (with feed from MSY) would do really well. I predict that in 10 years we will have seen a shift away (but not tot
62 ScottB : The fact is that not all business travelers need to access any or all of the destinations you listed, and most Southwest customers knew that OAK was
63 EricR : Never once did I say WN had no interest in business travelers, though somehow you've twisted my statements into this comment. My point is that WN gre
64 Cubsrule : Assigned seating sometimes isn't so good for business travelers, especially those who buy a lot of last minute tickets. I've been stuck in a middle s
65 EricR : I completely agree with you here. I much rather prefer open seating myself. However, based on comments I hear from others (business collegues as well
66 Cubsrule : Different strokes for different folks, but I think the issue is that people prefer legacy perks in general more so than that they prefer assigned sea
67 ScottB : They offered a different set of perks which were attractive to cost-conscious business travelers -- like no change fees, affordable walk-up fares, an
68 EricR : Where in this entire thread did I say WN was not focused on the business passenger? I said they've increased their emphasis on business passengers re
69 beardown91737 : ONT itself is not a leisure destination, but the time WN began serving ONT, it was closer to Disneyland than LAX was. Now LAX is closer. This was not
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