ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4286 times:
The EU is just figuring this out now, after approving it? Some of us questioned how granting monopoly pricing powers on many routes was advisable. The governments are so obsessed with LHR-JFK fairness they seemed to ignore CDG.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 2, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 4207 times:
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 1): The EU is just figuring this out now, after approving it? Some of us questioned how granting monopoly pricing powers on many routes was advisable.
So, we are pretty sure this is an investigation into the approved agreement? ...and not some new proposal?
robffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1094 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3990 times:
For further details you might want to look at the European Commission's site directly:
Antitrust: Commission opens a probe into transatlantic joint venture between Air France-KLM, Alitalia and Delta and closes proceedings against eight members of SkyTeam airline alliance
Amsterdam From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 69 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3966 times:
Nice, another 300 million fine for AFKL,
together with pressure from EasyJet, Ryanair, Arkefly, Air Berlin and Norwegian,
plus BA and LH, which are doing much better,
plus Emirates, Qatar and Etihad in full attack mode,
AF might as well stop now with all operations and call it a day.
mutu From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2006, 504 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3879 times:
yes this looks like it is still an ongoing part of the objections raised in 2006 as regards certain routings only, not the entirety of the joint venture.
Perhaps the comsolidation of italian airlines into AZ and Skyteam has triggered some concerns
Remember BA/AA had to remedy competition concerns on a couple of routes...likely to be nothing more than that
Probably France/Italy routes and possibly Italy/US?
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3800 times:
Quoting mutu (Reply 6): Probably France/Italy routes and possibly Italy/US?
Still a lot of Easyjet going between France and Italy (in fact, Easyjet now has a monopoly on CDG - MXP weirdly, although AF still serves LIN). I think long-haul is the bigger worry for the authorities.
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 7, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3665 times:
Quoting mutu (Reply 6): Remember BA/AA had to remedy competition concerns on a couple of routes...likely to be nothing more than that
How do AF/DL remedy AMS/CDG-ATL? CDG-MSP? CDG-DTW? There's no competition at all now, but who else would want to fly those? Nobody. Only way to remedy it is to revoke JV on those routes.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3632 times:
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 8): How do AF/DL remedy AMS/CDG-ATL? CDG-MSP? CDG-DTW? There's no competition at all now, but who else would want to fly those? Nobody. Only way to remedy it is to revoke JV on those routes.
I don't think that's the issue. I'm no expert, but there will always be many individual routes served by only one carrier. If the JV is stopped, MSP will not be getting more service. In fact, it might struggle to keep its service it has now. And after all, people from MSP (or CDG for that matter) can always hop on a plane to another hub and use that service.
It's probably more the broader picture that companies that in theory should be competing with each other, are working together. I don't know the exact market share of TATL flights from this JV, but it is substantial. In my opinion and to my limited knowledge, the main question is: is that market share combined with the JV influencing prices artificially? Do they price other companies out of the market, are they displaying predatory behavior towards new entrants, that kind of stuff.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 9, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3502 times:
Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 9): I don't think that's the issue. I'm no expert, but there will always be many individual routes served by only one carrier.
Some of those routes have both AF and DL metal. I think they could be saying that DL and AF should be competing if they are the only carriers in the route.
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3433 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 11): Some of those routes have both AF and DL metal. I think they could be saying that DL and AF should be competing if they are the only carriers in the route.
But I think they can correctly argue that if it were not for the JV, AF wouldn't serve a destination like that. Or is that too easy?
ikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21029 posts, RR: 60 Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 3378 times:
CDG and ATL are two of the busiest airports in the world. AF and DL are two of the largest airlines. Partnerships and code sharing are one thing, price fixing and capacity restriction are different. JV legalized the latter.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2954 times:
More like, this is BA, LH, Oneworld and Star questioning the legality of Skyteam. That's right, go after AF/KLM while they're on financial dire straits, try and knee-cap them in court rather than compete on the open market. Silly.
ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 583 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2770 times:
Isn't the cat out of the bag already. IAG now, LH owns os lx a part of sas I think. AF kl az are now together, they might have wanted to examine this a while ago.
blueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3121 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2464 times:
Quoting ikramerica (Reply 7): There's no competition at all now, but who else would want to fly those? Nobody. Only way to remedy it is to revoke JV on those routes.
They can isolate specific routes from the JV or they can (based on past experience) put certain conditions on the route to limit the JV's ability to "retaliate" if a new carrier were to launch a competing service.
usdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 754 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 1589 times:
I don't get why the commission won't list the specific routes in question. In my mind, the only route of concern would be CDG-JFK. It is highly likely DL and AF would be serving that market independently of one another if they did not have a JV, although DL would really be in the for the fight of its life with AF and AA. Meanwhile, I believe the following routes would be questionable at best in the absence of a JV or at least a tight alliance:
CDG-ORD winter service operated by DL (frequency would at least be reduced by AF without a JV)
ATL-CDG operated by AF, especially 2x a day
CDG-SEA operated by DL or AF
AMS-MEM operated by DL
CDG-MSP operated by DL
CDG-DTW operated by AF
ATL-FCO operated by DL year-round (summer would be fine)
AMS-ATL operated by KL
AMS-MSP operated by DL
CDG-SLC operated by DL
Clearly, the AF/KL/DL/AZ JV SUPPORTS the flying of more routes than it hinders it terms of competition. Although the above flights I listed end up increasing the overall transatlantic market share of DL/AF/KL/AZ, travelers would likely see far fewer flights offered in the absence of a JV due to the carriers' attempts to reduce capacity and increase yield to cover the cost of fuel. These actions would ultimately harm consumers by giving them fewer flight options. This makes me think that this review is more about market share between the carriers/JVs than it is about protecting consumers.
SuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 219 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1342 times:
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 15): Clearly, the AF/KL/DL/AZ JV SUPPORTS the flying of more routes than it hinders it terms of competition. Although the above flights I listed end up increasing the overall transatlantic market share of DL/AF/KL/AZ, travelers would likely see far fewer flights offered in the absence of a JV due to the carriers' attempts to reduce capacity and increase yield to cover the cost of fuel. These actions would ultimately harm consumers by giving them fewer flight options. This makes me think that this review is more about market share between the carriers/JVs than it is about protecting consumers.
I think this is correct. There is still a lot of competition TATL, although the majority of the (non-holiday) flights is now operated by one of the three alliances (BA-AA, Star and Skyteam JV). The airlines in the Skyteam JV can argue correctly that they do everything to operate at the lowest cost possible, as AF is handing over routes to DL. Yet, the yields of DL are not high enough to punish them for exploiting a market in my view. My conclusion would be that the JV primarily helps reduce cost at this point, and not helps raising prices or cutting service.
Of course, it still can be a concern for the future.
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