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American Airlines Fleet Of 10 707-323Bs  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 578 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 9541 times:

American Airlines took on a order for 10 Boeing 707-323Bs and were
delivered 1968-1969. Did all of these 10 leave the Boeing factory in
the orange lightning bolt paint scheme.In 1968 American was changing their
paint scheme to the current red white and blue paint scheme. There is a photo
of N8433 on Flickr that is in the older lightning bolt schem at LAX in 1969.
I think American got these 10 323Bs when they were awarded their Pacific
routes to New Zealand and Austrilia which lasted til 1973. In the early 1970s
all their 707s 123B 323B and passenger Cs got the new wide body look cabin
to replace the open hat racks.

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineCF-CPI From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 1131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 9489 times:

I think the red/white/blue colors were officially adopted by summer 1969, so I would venture to guess that any delivered after that time were indeed in the new colors.

According to some info I have, in the late 70s some of these -323s (if not all) were flown in an all coach configuration to the Caribbean. I would think that they would have been a great asset on US transcons when they needed a bit more capacity over the smaller -123s, but not so much as a DC-10. Does anyone know if they were regularly scheduled that way?


User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9267 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):
According to some info I have, in the late 70s some of these -323s (if not all) were flown in an all coach configuration to the Caribbean. I would think that they would have been a great asset on US transcons when they needed a bit more capacity over the smaller -123s, but not so much as a DC-10. Does anyone know if they were regularly scheduled that way?

You are right -- these all-coach 707s found their way to the Caribbean on some scheduled services -- I believe PAP and the "Night Coach" to SJU from JFK. But for the most part, they flew domestic and international charter flights, which was a decent business for AA in the late 1970s. And remember that AA served Southeast Asia as one of the carriers flying MAC charters during the Vietnam War, so some of the -323B/C fleet was all-coach configured as early as the late 1960s.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2012 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 9208 times:

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 1):

I think the red/white/blue colors were officially adopted by summer 1969, so I would venture to guess that any delivered after that time were indeed in the new colors.

According to some info I have, in the late 70s some of these -323s (if not all) were flown in an all coach configuration to the Caribbean. I would think that they would have been a great asset on US transcons when they needed a bit more capacity over the smaller -123s, but not so much as a DC-10. Does anyone know if they were regularly scheduled that way?

The -323B & C aircraft were flown throughout the system in a mixed configuration as late as 1976 when I flew on them more than a few times, on flights Trans Con flight with stops. The nonstop flights, i.e., JFK-LAX/SFO were all widebody as the flying public, before deregulation, "demanded" the roomier widebodies. The transcon flights from New York to California were considered premium service flights and had either TWA, United, or American, decided to fly narrow body equipment in competition with the other two lines widebodies, they would have seen their market share plummet. At the time, the frequent flyer was aware of the choice of equipment and this is what drove the airlines to offer coach lounges etc. After the oil embargo and price shock in late 1973, airlines did start to cut out the lounges in coach and add more seats, but DC-10's and L-1011's were still 8 across in coach, and the 747 was nine across, with 36 inches of pitch or more. Only in the late 70's as deregulation was passed and then the 2nd oil price shock took place with the Iranian Revolution, did the airlines start to pack more people into their domestic use widebodies. For example, when American Airlines Flight 191 crashed at ORD in May of 1979, that flight was full, and there were "only" 258 passengers on board, about fifty less than that aircraft type carried a few years later. By the late 1970's, which the above poster mentioned, American was selling off their 707's and they grounded the entire fleet in September of 1981 because of the high cost of fuel. TWA attempted to operate all coach 707's from Chicago to the west coast, and that experiment was not successful, as UA and AA were operating DC-10's and 747's. In fact, by the time oil climbed a second time, there were articles written in business publications that claimed that a full 707 could not cover the costs to operate it based on fuel costs and fare yields of the time. At the beginning of regulation, while there were more fares than prior to deregulation, the fares for seats did not change daily based on sales and demand. Bob Crandall had not yet brought yield management to the industry.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 8931 times:

The AA 707-323B/Cs were unusual in only having 2 turbocompressors on engines #2 and #3, like the 720 and AA's 707-123s which I believe were also the only -120s built without a 3rd turbocompressor on #4 engine.

Look at any AA -323B/C (and -123B) photos and you'll notice the narrow #4 engine pylon (same as #1), both minus the turbocompressor housing like those on engines 2 and 3. Compare the #4 engine pylon on the AA and TW aircraft below.


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aris Pappas




Not positive but I believe AA's may have been the only passenger -320B/Cs with only 2 turbocompressors. Some Pan Am -321C freighters (and possibly some others built as pure freighters) also only had 2 turbocompressors but I've never seen a passenger -320B/C other than AA's without a 3rd one on #4 engine. I know some early -420s (and possibly some turbojet -320s) lacked a 3rd turbocomprssor, but there's no easy way to tell on those aircraft since the engine pylon is the same on all 4 engines, whether it contains a turbocompressor or not, unlike the pylons used with the JT3D turbofans which are very different with and without a turbocompressor. I believe Air India's 707-420s only had 2.

Note the Pan Am -321C pure freighter on the left without the turbocompressor on engine #4, and a passenger -321C on the right with the turbocompressor on the same engine.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fred Willemsen
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



I believe AA decided the could do without the 3rd turbocompressor on their 707s since at the time they were ordered AA had virtually no overwater routes and could easily divert to another relatively close airport in the event of a pressurization problem.

[Edited 2012-01-29 13:15:05]

User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8595 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):


The AA 707-323B/Cs were unusual in only having 2 turbocompressors on engines #2 and #3, like the 720 and AA's 707-123s which I believe were also the only -120s built without a 3rd turbocompressor on #4 engine.

You are indeed correct -- AA-123Bs also had only two TCs. All AA 707s were, indeed, unique in this manner.


User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 578 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4441 times:

Did American Airlines install the widebody interior look to their Boeing 720-023Bs or left them with the open hat rack
cabin. I think American retired their last 720B in 1976,


User currently offlinetan flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

Milesrich..great synopsis.


In the spring of 1979 , as I recall, we had an all-coach 707 sub on an ACA-ORD flight. It was a tad tighter seating than the regularly configured 707's.

I remember the previous Saturday when we flew ORD-ACA , it was the last day of DC-10 service on the route (hi season) with only 49 of us on board. Booked full on the return that afternoon.

What was wierd, was earlier that week I had taken a UA DC-10 red-eye from PDX to ORD..only 54 on board. Sure hope the belly had a lot of fish or something in it that night, otherwise they lost a few bucks.


User currently offline113312 From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 576 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4357 times:

American upgradedt the interiors to widebody style, LuxuryJet, on all of their Boeings so far as I can recall. If there was an exception, it would have been the convertable -323C but perhaps someone can confirm or deny. I can recall at least one trip on one of those where it was clear that the seats were on removable pallets and the overhead hat racks and PSU were hinged. But I don't recall what year that trip was and it could have been 1969.

User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4078 times:

Quoting 113312 (Reply 8):
If there was an exception, it would have been the convertable -323C but perhaps someone can confirm or deny.

Actually, even the -323Cs were converted. I recently saw a photo of a coworker -- senior FA -- taken in the YC cabin of a -323C circa 1974 -- the hat rack exits were visible near where she was standing. The AC was fitted with the first-generation Boeing wide body look interior. The trip was JFK-HNL and onward to SYD via an island hop of some sort.

AA made a big deal marketing this aspect of their narrow body fleet in an attempt to differentiate AA from other US carriers flying narrow bodied Boeings in the early 1970s.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 9):
AA made a big deal marketing this aspect of their narrow body fleet in an attempt to differentiate AA from other US carriers flying narrow bodied Boeings in the early 1970s.

The aircraft pictured in the middle photo of the first item below is actually a 720B. Unlike other 720 operators, AA never differentiated between the 707 and 720 in their advertising or timetables, or on the aircraft itself.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CHZvVSN5a_U/TmvgSrpBH0I/AAAAAAAAAG4/kXxP-KmXd1Y/s1600/AA+707+2.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JAHqm2pN0Qk/Tmvgvn0GmRI/AAAAAAAAAHA/kNiMbh7j9Yg/s1600/AA+707+1.jpg


User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

Actually, the YC cabin photo above appears to be a -323C. The exits on either side just about where the first FA is standing appear to be the jet-escape/hat rack doors just aft of the wing of the C model 707.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3891 times:

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 11):
Actually, the YC cabin photo above appears to be a -323C. The exits on either side just about where the first FA is standing appear to be the jet-escape/hat rack doors just aft of the wing of the C model 707.

I agree. Hadn't noticed those additional exits until you mentioned them


User currently offlineJFKPurser From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 486 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Viscount 724 -- thanks for that great brochure. I flew around the USA extensively on AA 707s/720Bs throughout the late 60s and 1970s. Many fond memories. I missed it by about 5 years, though -- I was hired by AA as an FA in 1986 and would have done anything to work that plane...

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25989 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting JFKPurser (Reply 13):
Viscount 724 -- thanks for that great brochure. I flew around the USA extensively on AA 707s/720Bs throughout the late 60s and 1970s. Many fond memories. I missed it by about 5 years, though -- I was hired by AA as an FA in 1986 and would have done anything to work that plane...

Those were just 2 pages from a larger brochure. You'll find the entire thing here (scroll down). That blog has many similar items for many other carriers.
http://airlinespastpresent.blogspot....m/search/label/American%20Airlines


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