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AA Dismisses US Merger  
User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3118 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25439 times:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/201...an-ceo-pans-us-airways-merger.html

According to Tom Horton, CEO of American, "This is not US Airways' first attempt at this. This is a small company very strategically limited, I would argue - not any international flying, hubs of less strategic importance. This will be their fourth try at this: Twice for United, once for Delta while they were restructuring, now American. I would argue that this will be every bit as successful as their prior tries. I'm not sure what's in the water out there in Phoenix. Maybe it's the cactus. I don't know what it is."

Pretty bold, almost childish statement by Tom Horton, especially when you consider that US has the third largest hub in America and serves more destinations in Europe than AA.

Didn't see this posted or discussed. If so, mods please delete.


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212 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5514 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25370 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Pretty bold, almost childish statement by Tom Horton,

And so unnecessary that he must feel US is a real threat.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8437 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25327 times:
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Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Pretty bold, almost childish statement by Tom Horton, especially when you consider that US has the third largest hub in America and serves more destinations in Europe than AA.

USairways has in the last 20 years been offered chnaces to fly to Japan and China, but they seem to have " Pacific Allergies". Must be something in teh water in Philadelphia and Charlotte. They never went to Tokyo or Peking because they made the choice NOT TOO.

How many times a day does US fly from Any USA city to LHR, GRU, EZE or NRT ? Once out of Philly to LHR and non tpo Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires or Tokyo. Enough said.


User currently offlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25156 times:

Well considering all the financial talking heads (and many here at Anet) are acting as if this US tie up is a done deal, I see why he finally just spoke his mind and remind everyone this isn't US first trip to the altar............And don't be surprised if he has a plan B ie. IAG and TPG in his corner.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8437 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25117 times:
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Quoting william (Reply 3):
Well considering all the financial talking heads (and many here at Anet) are acting as if this US tie up is a done deal, I see why he finally just spoke his mind and remind everyone this isn't US first trip to the altar............And don't be surprised if he has a plan B ie. IAG and TPG in his corner.

Amy future AA will certainly have IAG in it in one degree or another. TPG will probably be there too since they have positive history of airline investments.


User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 439 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 25061 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):

I would argue that the lack of a Pacific network isn't so much a weakness as much as it is a decision to not participate in the market. Given the setup of the current US hubs, it's probably the correct decision. The only hub that could support service to Asia would probably be PHL to NRT, and even then it would be a big risk that would take up a lot of resources. Sometimes it's better to sit out a fight than engage in a losing battle. US has done a great job with what it has, and built a very respectable Easy Coast-Europe route network.

It isn't necessary for a major US airline to be a player in the pacific market. After DL made its PDX and LAX cuts in the early 2000s, ATL-NRT was the only trans-Pacific route in the DL network for years. Up until the NW merger, I believe the only Asian routes at DL were ATL-NRT/ICN/PVG.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3118 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24970 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
How many times a day does US fly from Any USA city to LHR, GRU, EZE or NRT ? Once out of Philly to LHR and non tpo Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires or Tokyo. Enough said.

LHR and NRT are all oneworld hubs and AA has been flying to South America for years. US has only flown to South America for two years now.

The same could be said with AA and Germany. This summer, US will have PHL-FRA(2X), CLT-FRA(2X), PHL-MUC(1X). AA is a much larger airline, yet only offers one year round flight to Germany, and two in the summer.



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User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3529 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24940 times:

I don't see Gerard Arpey responding this way - Tom Horton needs to act like the CEO of a company in Chapter 11. His company is in this situation because they have no more cards to play.

I don't see US Airways in bankruptcy at the moment ...



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11450 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24707 times:

This must be in response to LCC stock rising 50% in the past two weeks, and 6% today alone.

I'm really quite surprised at this childish response. Horton has a fiduciary duty to his creditors to get them recompensated. If US decides to shell out the money, Horton needs to act like a grown-up and take it.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
User currently offlineAS739BSI From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24545 times:

Um, last check of AMR stock, it is at .653 per share, and 41% owned, with 335.23 million shares, and it is publicly traded. US could pick them up for around $112 million. Unless another 10% is bought up soon, AMR is open for a hostile takeover if I am not mistaken. I think US is waiting on the sidelines for the perfect moment to strike.

User currently offlineSulley From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 535 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24547 times:

I don't know which I enjoy more - Horton's remarks, or the thin-skinned chest thumping Charlotteans commenting on the Observer's website.

Oh, Charlotte, you're so... predictibly Charlotte.

[Edited 2012-02-03 10:45:21]


In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24520 times:

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Pretty bold, almost childish statement by Tom Horton
Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
And so unnecessary that he must feel US is a real threat.

Not really. Welcome to the airline industry. Branson, O'Leary anyone.....

Quoting planespotting (Reply 7):
Tom Horton needs to act like the CEO of a company in Chapter 11. His company is in this situation because they have no more cards to play.

Oh come on...Chapter 11 is almost a reason to put your feet up and chill out for airlines in the U.S

No wonder he's feeling bullish. Don't blame him. Only way is up. (forgive the pun)



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24476 times:

AA must know about the US/HP seniority list issue and that's probably another reason they don't want them.

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24431 times:

Interesting comment from Horton about how US has no international flying. They fly to more places in Europe than AA. While I understand he probably intended to say they had less international flying than AA, it is an odd comment when AA flies to less European locations than US.

While AA's hubs are located in metro areas with larger population than US's hubs, I am surprised he is dismissing the value US could bring to AA, notably a larger domestic route structure to help them feed their international routes (an important post-BK focus) and a nice DCA focus city.

Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
I'm not sure what's in the water out there in Phoenix.


From personal experience, the water is not the best in Phoenix. It is hard water with a lot of calcium, but alas, I am digressing.

[Edited 2012-02-03 10:49:34]

User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20751 posts, RR: 62
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24367 times:

Quoting AS739BSI (Reply 9):
US could pick them up for around $112 million.

$112 million PLUS taking on all of the unresolved debt, labor contracts and other BK issues. And $112 million is only at today's prices, not if someone were to make a bid for the company. The stock price is a very poor indicator of the resources that'd be necessary to pick up AMR outright at this point.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1767 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24295 times:

Quoting AS739BSI (Reply 9):
Um, last check of AMR stock, it is at .653 per share, and 41% owned, with 335.23 million shares, and it is publicly traded. US could pick them up for around $112 million. Unless another 10% is bought up soon, AMR is open for a hostile takeover if I am not mistaken. I think US is waiting on the sidelines for the perfect moment to strike.

Also, it's not 41% "owned", it's 100% owned. 52% by institutions as of my writing. A stock can never be owned less than 100%, someone is stuck holding the stock certificate at the end of the day.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25458 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24194 times:
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Quoting USAirALB (Thread starter):
Pretty bold, almost childish statement by Tom Horton, especially when you consider that US has the third largest hub in America and serves more destinations in Europe than AA.

I thought it was just a throwaway funny. I smiled.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24109 times:

Quoting planespotting (Reply 7):
I don't see US Airways in bankruptcy at the moment ...

...because they'd already been there and back. One could argue AA took the high road and waited to sort out their problems internally before declaring bankruptcy as a last resort.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 6):
AA is a much larger airline, yet only offers one year round flight to Germany, and two in the summer.

I'm not sure why everyone is using Europe as the end-all be-all comparison with regard to international flying. I concede that AA is weak in Europe....but TATL flying is hurting the most right now while Central and South America are booming which is where AA dominates along with the Caribbean. When it comes down to it, AA has the planes and the network if it decides to expand TATL routes when the timing is right, but US lacks both when it comes to Central and South America.


User currently offlineAS739BSI From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 24104 times:

I stand corrected. It isn't worth buying AMR given the debt and liabilities. While certain areas are attractive, that debt is an instant turn off for any accquistion in the immediate future.

User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3529 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 23925 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 11):
Oh come on...Chapter 11 is almost a reason to put your feet up and chill out for airlines in the U.S

I'm not saying he should be pounding the pavement trying to find a suitor or figuring out a way to fix his company - just that Chapter 11 was AA's last resort and they don't have any other legs to stand on right now => not an enviable position to be in, and certainly not one that someone should be blustering from.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
Quoting planespotting (Reply 7):
I don't see US Airways in bankruptcy at the moment ...

...because they'd already been there and back. One could argue AA took the high road and waited to sort out their problems internally before declaring bankruptcy as a last resort.

That's a valid argument, but how does AA's decision to stave off bankruptcy until now compare to US Airways/America West's decision to file Chap 11 then and subsequently merge? Which company is in a more enviable position at the present time?

It's not AA.



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8656 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23787 times:

The problem is, he really needs to argue how he can match the cost structure of a US-AA tieup. And that is, to be fair, a physical impossibility. DL had a better merger partner in NW. AA is left arguing it doesn't want to change its cost structure very much. But, creditors may disagree.

If he is arguing US wouldn't know how to do the financials on big int'l operations, it seems a little silly. US occasionally didn't launch flights that would lose boatloads of money. AA tended to launch them. US has a network about as complex as AA. It seems to manage it well.

[Edited 2012-02-03 11:49:39]

User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23659 times:

Quoting planespotting (Reply 19):
but how does AA's decision to stave off bankruptcy until now compare to US Airways/America West's decision to file Chap 11 then and subsequently merge?

It doesn't, but I see a lot of people or 'fans' of UA, DL, NW, CO...etc always seem to try and leverage some sort of moral high ground over AA because AA is in bankruptcy right now and the other airlines aren't, which is disingenuous as all major US carriers have gone through the bankruptcy process (some more than others).


User currently offlineLDVAviation From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 1096 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23497 times:

Quoting william (Reply 3):
Well considering all the financial talking heads (and many here at Anet) are acting as if this US tie up is a done deal, I see why he finally just spoke his mind and remind everyone this isn't US first trip to the altar............And don't be surprised if he has a plan B ie. IAG and TPG in his corner.

Tom Horton is not a loudmouth. His expertise is finance. So, if he feels confident enough to ridicule US, it can only mean that he already has an agreement in principle with TPG, Citibank, and maybe even IAG to provide exist financing. That's what this means.

[Edited 2012-02-03 12:31:57]

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 23249 times:

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 17):
I'm not sure why everyone is using Europe as the end-all be-all comparison with regard to international flying.

Because Horton is quoted in his interview as saying that US has no international flying. Everyone is using Europe as an example because US flies to more European destinations than AA.


User currently onlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1968 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 22859 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 23):
Everyone is using Europe as an example because US flies to more European destinations than AA.

Because it's the ONLY example where US flies to more destinations than AA. Add up AA's destinations served in Canada, the Caribbean, Mexico, Central and South America, Asia, and Europe and you'll find that AA flies to, far and away, more international destinations than US.


25 DL WIDGET HEAD : Seems like any overture US may make at this point will be hostile.
26 yellowtail : he pans US but says nothing about DL. No matter how you look at it it says a lot. I know I will get is a flamewar....but do not discount the AS factor
27 EricR : Correct, but it is an example of where US flies to internationally. When a CEO of one airline inaccurately describes the network of another airline,
28 mah4546 : Yet AA is still a significantly larger airline to Europe. It offers more capacity to just London than US Airways does between PHL and the EU right no
29 Boeing773ER : Technically, AA's biggest problem is not being able to make a profit.
30 D L X : Except that the smaller America West DID merge with the larger US Airways.
31 EricR : Except that US does have international flying contrary to his statement.[Edited 2012-02-03 13:32:31]
32 southwest737500 : Yes it does, think about. North and south traffic Say your flying from PIT to MYR. you have to go PIT-DFW- MYR. I think It makes more sense to just h
33 yellowtail : I would say their biggest problem could be chosen from one of the below 1) bad management 2) unions 3) high costs 4) depth of network. All of lead ba
34 cjpmaestro : I just think it's hysterical that they are in BK, bleeding money and laying off 13K employees and he can bad mouth another airline with such arrogance
35 washingtonian : {Checkmark} Agree 100%. Yeah, but we are not the CEO of an airline in Chapter 11 with several other airlines planning hostile takeover bids. Super ar
36 Post contains images GSPflyer : So CLT still would bring nothing to AA? The Southeastern US is an area that has a rapidly growing population, and this will continue to grow for years
37 Post contains images AirframeAS : But to be fair, US has had its share of bankruptcy and negative PR over the last 20 years. American has done so much better than US ever has. That is
38 LipeGIG : Good for US, grow on their own. Not the best type of speech for any CEO, a complete lack of respect by Horton. If he wants to say no, and do not want
39 LDVAviation : He can bad mouth another airline because he is more confident in his exit strategy than whatever strategy US Airways could propose. Horton is a very
40 yellowtail : What we are all forgetting is that his comments may actually have not been really aimed at US...they may have been aimed at his employees. To fire the
41 C010T3 : Of course, Tim Horton is acting like this. If a merger takes place, it will not be between equals. There is an element of corporatism acting there, wh
42 ASFlyer : American isn't exactly a power house in Asia either. They fly to a small handful of cities there but are still eclipsed by UA and DL. US Airways is m
43 AirframeAS : No difference from MOL, of course. Only MOL is worse. I agree. US needs to let go of this "merger mania" and grow on their own. They can do it. They
44 mogandoCI : 3 to be exact, spanning 2 countries. I think in Europe they're probably eclipsed by UA/DL/US in terms of coverage. Central America they're neck-and-n
45 caliboy78 : Just a few points: 1.- All the DL and UA having a better presence in Europe / Asia was gained because of the merger / BK. Before the merger DL had nea
46 EricR : Oh it's no joke......the water in Phoenix is pretty bad.
47 United1 : Couple corrections.. UA was the largest US airline in Asia prior to the merger....and has been ever since 1986 when they purchased PAs Pacific networ
48 airlinespotter : Lack of depth in its network? So you are telling me that AA has depth but makes no profits whatsoever and bankrupt but US has no depth but makes mone
49 HPRamper : The FAs haven't really been bickering. They've just basically been waiting for the pilot groups to figure something out. They finally got tired of wa
50 AirframeAS : I can confirm that. I lived in PHX for 5 years. The water is..... bad. Go down there and try it yourself. You'll spit it out before you can take the
51 Post contains images CIDFlyer : What is CLT up to nowadays, about 650-700 dailies? I think DFW is still bigger at around 800, I've often heard it to being referred to as the 2nd lar
52 Post contains images mayor : This may be a little off topic, but here's a piece of humor that was going around when US was trying it's takeover of DL......I don't know who wrote i
53 JoeCanuck : I find it odd that some are calling AA management 'bad' because they are in bankruptcy, and US management 'good' because they are making money...which
54 FlyASAGuy2005 : It' aint US either IMHO... Every airline can't be everything to everyone. The same thing can be reversed for a myriad of cities throughout the midwes
55 thegoldenargosy : What did AA gain by avoiding the inevitable? They have a militant workforce and happen to be one of the few airlines not making money. It's main comp
56 AirStairs : And PMUA did this with a 100% 3-class longhaul fleet. I'm not necessarily arguing that the representation you make is true, but it's certainly possib
57 Chicagoflight : When this whole thing started and there was talk of U.S. merging with American it was a yawner to me. But after reading the really arrogant and misgui
58 AirframeAS : One will never know..... They botched this route totally on their own and it made them look like fools.
59 columba : Large fleet of A32xs that could help retire the old fuel hogs MDs early......
60 rj777 : I think US needs to get their own mess (HP seniority list) cleaned up before they end up with 3 seniority lists 10 years from now.
61 Post contains images etops1 : I think US needs to get their own mess (HP seniority list) cleaned up before they end up with 3 seniority lists 10 years from now. If i had a dollar f
62 ouboy79 : At least only the pilots are left. I have a feeling the thought of an impending merger that would put 3 pilot groups against each other, with the AA
63 HPRamper : I'm still waiting for another argument against US merging with anyone. Every once in a while we hear a network complaint, but oh, 9 out of 10 times t
64 Max Q : How do you come up with that ?!
65 beardown91737 : Maybe Horton is thinking US is still Allegheny. His comments describe PMPMAL. HP flew to NRT, but dropped it when the decision had to be made, or mayb
66 SurfandSnow : This is the exact same arrogant rhetoric that Pan Am had. Oh, we have all the lucrative overseas routes from key international gateways like New York
67 quiet1 : Earlier in the thread, the idea was raised, discussed and then dismissed about US making a hostile takeover bid for AA. That discussion made me wonder
68 gen2stew : FINALLY SOME CAJONES IN FORT WORTH; I did not think there were any left after BOB. Maybe this is a step back toward the old AA: bold, aggrissive, and
69 bobnwa : I don't believe a single airline has said they are planning a hostile bid for AA, If you are using A.net as a source ffor this statement, then i thin
70 AAplat4life : Horton can say whatever he wants. At this point in the bankruptcy process, the idea of any acquisition is just speculative. At some point, however, we
71 EricR : I don't think you will get one, at least not a valid one. I think US is too often dismissed as a merger candidate. Now that the number of potential m
72 USPIT10L : It was NGO, not NRT. HP flew LASHNLNGO with a 747 and cut it during their first Ch11 experience.
73 enilria : ...and I don't see IAG caring about the US network. It's pretty much worthless. PHL is the only thing remotely valuable to them. From a domestic netw
74 commavia : It's understandable why Horton has to show a strong, unified front, and further understandable why AMR would not to want to deal with a USAirways merg
75 billreid : American has been quite arrogant for decades. Its the training Crandall passed on to the management ranks. Horton fails to mention one huge advantage.
76 idlewildchild : What happens if BA-IB/QF/CX invest up to the maximum allowed by law? Does that change the calculus for AAs demise? Just wondering.
77 HPRamper : US had a focus city at FLL and closed it not really all that long ago. Even with NK out of the picture, I'm not all that sure they could make it work
78 GSPflyer : Wasn't the biggest downfall of AA at RDU the fact that they tried to have a hub right down the road at BNA at the same time?
79 seatback : Horton's comments shows me that AA has no interest in US now or after.Looks like AA is positioning themselves as a strong number 3 and is ok with that
80 beardown91737 : If AA were taking over US, then what not expect AA to repeat their past record of making Air Cal, Reno and TWA disappear? However, AA is not taking o
81 AirframeAS : It maybe, but don't count on it. It ain't gonna happen no matter how much you really want it to. AS has said over and over and over (including the AA
82 mah584jr : I think it speaks to the attractiveness that AS offers. I wouldn't take it so much as an insult, or that people want to see AS go away. They run a re
83 AS739BSI : AS ain't merging with anyone. No current legacy could make AS's route network given costs. There is no fleet commonality between AS and US and all tha
84 Longhornmaniac : I guess I read Horton's comments differently. It seems to me he's saying there is no international flying of strategic significance, not that don't do
85 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Despite the hate for RJs on a.net, there is a business case for them and they make money believe it or not. With the addition of more large RJs, AA w
86 USAIRWAYS321 : First you say: And then... Which is it? You aren't honestly comparing CLT to RDU as far as their ability to sustain a large, profitable hub goes, are
87 EricR : Yes, I know. But I think this is brought up so often because of the value/strength of AS in the pacific northwest. It is not intended as a desire to
88 lucky777 : What is it about US Airways that seems to bring out such hatred, and i'm namely speaking of fellow Legacy carrier CEO's. Delta essentially told Doug P
89 mijoatlanta : What seems more telling regardless if Horton's words are really arrogant, is the lack of similar language regarding Delta's interest.
90 CIDFlyer : I think that was part of the problem, instead of having one large hub, they tried to split the South between BNA and RDU, instead of trying to build
91 Flighty : It's galling to think that AA wiped their toilet seat with US, but really, US management has a track record of very sharp pencil pushing. And AA hasn
92 FlyASAGuy2005 : Like I pointed out, there is no press release from Delta on the AA situation. They have been tight lipped about it and all the talk has been from "so
93 JoeCanuck : Actually, by going into Chapter 11 protection, that is exactly what they are doing...adjusting to market forces. They need to drastically reduce thei
94 Post contains images AirframeAS : It is a tiresome idea by many on these boards over the years. The results are the same every time. If AS wanted to merge with someone, it would have
95 Post contains links STT757 : It's going to be AA + US, if for any other reason than there's one too many legacy carriers left. An AA US deal would further reduce capacity. http://
96 washingtonian : Let's stop thinking about it as 'What can US bring to AA?" and start thinking of it as 'What can AA bring to US?'. Answer: Large international network
97 AirframeAS : And make ticket prices much, much more expensive. Then we are back to 1960's prices. Ouch!
98 Post contains images AAIL86 : Horton is no idiot when it comes to this business. He understands the strengths and weaknesses of US Airways' network, and I'm doubt he has anything p
99 JoeCanuck : We should also be thinking about what AA can get out of chapter 11 protection without any merger. I think Horton is actually just telling it like it
100 HPRamper : I don't see why. AA is the only domestic major I've never flown on, purely because they are invariably the most expensive, or close to, no matter wha
101 AAplat4life : If an AA/US acquisition does goes through, Horton's chances of survival now would be much smaller. He would have been better off not to make any comme
102 blink182 : If AA merged with B6, why would they need US feed out of JFK? If AA merged with B6, that would significantly shore up their JFK domestic presence. I
103 washingtonian : The fact of the matter is that US is in a much stronger position here than AA. Sure, that's his goal. But a merger is inevitable one way or the other
104 bobnwa :
105 bobnwa : When has Delta said they have an interest in AA?
106 ftornik : Our only concern should be that if US or another Star Alliance carrier buys AA, that the resulting company stay in OW. If not the DOT anti-trust allia
107 Post contains links commavia : Interesting report out this weekend from Bloomberg following interviews with Horton this past week in New York. What is notable is the marked differen
108 ASFlyer : Yes, now you would get frequent nonstop service in almost every major market and many secondary markets, by multiple carriers. Youl also get a much s
109 Post contains images AAIL86 : Yes- but its always fun to long for the glorious past, isn't it? You are exactly right- in many ways aviation has never been better, despite some thi
110 brilondon : I am not sure of this but when a company is in bankruptcy, their stock is not really able to be traded so really you could value it at whatever you w
111 AAplat4life : The stock is quoted for trades, and can be bought and sold through market makers, but it is not traded on a national securiteis exchange. This is bec
112 AirframeAS : The whole point to mergers/consolidation/eliminating competition is to increase revenue and increase ticket price. No competition = more expensive. M
113 AAIL86 : True- but he is only Doug Parker- not Darth Vader!
114 JoeCanuck : I don't see a merger as inevitable. A bad merger could do more harm than good. If their costs go down to equal that of their competitors, they will b
115 FlyASAGuy2005 : I'd have to agree with you on this point. IMO, US seems to be in a position where they are being left behind. Sure, AA is in bk but (my own personal
116 mayor : Perhaps, but with the current climate in the U.S. with jobs going overseas and a "buy American" sentiment, prevalent, I doubt if anyone in congress i
117 avek00 : Good for AA management to acknowledge US solves absolutely none of American's problems.
118 avek00 : In a nutshell, US is a yield laggard among the legacies, AA needs to boost yields. Tying two anchors together will not yield a better American Airline
119 commavia : I agree that USAirways at least wants - if not needs - AA more than the other way around, but I am thinking more and more that there is a logic to an
120 etops1 : I think Horton is talking nonsense. He is just trying to boost employee moral during this BK. In the end ,I believe he will be drinking the cactus jui
121 avek00 : Let's quickly dispel some notions: 1. Yes, US does a fair bit of Europe flying, but most of it caters to far more marginal yielding traffic types than
122 Post contains images lucky777 : So says a US Airways flight attendant.
123 etops1 : Whatever friend . I am just posting my opinion ... Like I said ..I may be wrong. We will see who is laughing at the end .Although , this is no laughin
124 commavia : Not sure I agree. Sure, their Europe network is probably not going to be as high-yielding as some other U.S.-Europe markets, but they do have a fair
125 Post contains links AAplat4life : AMR is not growing revenues and its premium passengers are being picked off by other airlines. A merger with US would help feed traffic on AA's intern
126 commavia : USAirways will do little to feed AA's international routes outside of solidifying feed from Phoenix over LAX to Asia and over JFK to Europe. Beyond t
127 avek00 : Candidly, those building blocks still add up to AA being an also-ran behind rivals with a far more comprehensive presence in the NYC market -- keepin
128 commavia : Hardly. AA - today - has a very strong franchise in New York with nonstop service to many of the most important O&D markets. There are definitely
129 ckfred : It's somewhat common, when the media and Wall Street start talking merger, for a CEO to make a statement about the company not being interested. My wi
130 mijoatlanta : Yes, it is only media speculation, but there have even been threads on this site mentioning Delta's interest in AA.
131 bobnwa : I hope you are not considering A net as a reliable source for aviation speculation.
132 TSS : Agreed. US moving from Star Alliance to Oneworld and getting a reasonable code share agreement in place with AA would be a great way for both carrier
133 mijoatlanta : You are right. That would be blasphemy!
134 Flighty : US solved the cost problem and is offering lessons.
135 avek00 : AA will do whatever it can on costs through Chapter 11. Where the airline needs improvement is on the revenue front, and as having gone from yield le
136 mogandoCI : The location is ideal but the feed is faaaar from that. If i'm counting correctly, the only non-cornerstone domestic feeds into JFK are BOS, SEA, SFO
137 beardown91737 : There are also 1 or 2 daily RJs to CVG, CLE, CMH, YHZ, ORF, BNA, and BWI, plus 3x YUL and RDU. Suprisingly low for service between cities that size an
138 Post contains images sydscott : AA didn't really count on having an airline the size of Jetblue taking up slots at JFK. Having said that, by my reckoning, the current AA schedule (on
139 delta2ual : I don't believe the F/A's have voted yet. NGO on 747's.
140 mogandoCI : You've double counted MAD.
141 Post contains links commavia : Interesting report out tonight from Reuters that certain elements of AMR's Creditors Committee are (not surprisingly) not exactly overwhelmed with AMR
142 HPRamper : I agree. Both sides want to be the ones running the show. Honestly, I'm not sure if I'd be comfortable with the current AA management running my comp
143 norcal : I agree, I don't think the management team that brings a company into bk is the one that can lead it out. What I think will happen is AMR will get mo
144 washingtonian : Why is that? You've been pretty critical in the past. Feel free to share the evolution of your thinking!
145 Post contains links NYCAdvantage : Interesting opinion on AA options http://www.marketwatch.com/video/ass...AB73F5-1F5A-4B8A-9EAC-31371E4BBBCE[Edited 2012-02-09 18:04:10]
146 JoeCanuck : I think an AA/Delta merger would be tied up in anti trust for years. Look at the hoops AA had to jump through to get their partnership with BA approv
147 JFKPurser : Agreed. AA Management's business plan will change nothing. And their 1113 proposals to the unions will ultimately only deepen the morale crisis at AA
148 commavia : Some do, some don't seem to. Fair. Although, the proposal was just that - a proposal. It was outrageous, of course, but that's negotiation - you star
149 BobLoblaw : Without going through all the posts, which US hub would that be? Largest hubs I thought were: DL in ATL AA in DFW UA in ORD or IAH Is US in CLT/PHL o
150 LAXdude1023 : Allow me to summarize that video: "Dude, American and Delta would like have a totally killer network".
151 JoeCanuck : Fer shurr...
152 caliboy78 : Yeah like that's gonna happen. I'm gonna sound like a broken record but. AA will not merge with anyone while they are in BK. AA will emerge and merge
153 NYCAdvantage : An American Delta corporation network could be a complete beast, that will force US to merge with UA. That will bring two mega carriers competing aga
154 SHUPirate1 : One wonders what would have to be divested, other than AA's (large, but smaller than DL's) LGA and JFK operations...
155 USAirALB : [e=BobLoblaw,reply=149][/quote] US at CLT is the second largest hub in the US, after DL at ATL and AA at DFW.
156 Cubsrule : By departures, sure. But is it larger than ORD or IAH in ASMs? I suspect not.
157 mogandoCI : Actually what's the best way to measure a hub? Departures, passengers, total ASM, or rev ASM ?
158 STT757 : All of AA's LGA and JFK slots would have to be divested, that's for sure, plus some international route authorities probably centered on Brazil, LHR
159 Cubsrule : The industry standard for "size" is one of the ASM measures, isn't it?
160 Post contains images delta2ual : I like the proposal by AA to the APFA regarding bidding and reserve: PBS with 3-9 reserve days plotted on lines, rather than whole month reserve. This
161 mayor : US at CLT is the second largest hub in the US, after DL at ATL and AA at DFW.[/quote] Forgive an old man, but wouldn't that make CLT the THIRD larges
162 JFKPurser : Correct. We can see now that AA basically copied DL's 1113 proposal to FA's. It is almost identical. But DL did not dump their FA pensions. So what A
163 RDH3E : Sort of. That's the measure for Capacity, which makes a good measure of the "size" of an airline. But as far as measuring hubs goes, I'm pretty sure
164 commavia : What about all the other stuff the company is proposing? Not just PBS - but AA's proposal about cutting the premium pays, differentials, etc.? Did De
165 NYCAdvantage : I agree all LGA some from Brazil, HND, AA's NRT, Now I have a question since DL does not own any LHR slots so why should they divest any? Isn't UA EW
166 STT757 : Lets look at past precedent, in order to win approval for their merger UA had to divest every single one of their EWR slots (18 daily) which they cho
167 JFKPurser : From what I understand, what AA is proposing is basically what DL has now. And IIRC DL got pretty much everything they were asking for -- after all t
168 HPRamper : Then I don't think they will merge at all. US wants to take someone over, and their BOD isn't pressing for anything right now. They are already makin
169 NYCAdvantage : I understand but if they still when all slots combined from JFK/LGA and EWR smaller than UA, Shouldn't they be at least equal to UA in the NYC area b
170 Cubsrule : No. UA chose to do that because it was guaranteed to be approved. It's not clear that UA could not have gotten away with less.
171 mayor : Oh, right.....they got "shafted". I suppose, now, you could call it being "UN-shafted", hmmm? Huge profit sharing, pay raises (or resuming pay levels
172 JFKPurser : Their profit sharing barely makes up for the cuts their company took from them -- their higher medical costs (for far less coverage), fewer vacation
173 commavia : Okay makes sense - thanks for explaining. Well yes, obviously having a bitter, cynical and unmotivated (for understandable reasons) workforce is a st
174 ripcordd : AA is not going to BK to get DL or UA costs they are going in to get their costs below that of UA and DL
175 mayor : Well, this old DL retiree says that those people don't know how good they have it........as far as those DL FAs are concerned, I wonder how many of t
176 LDVAviation : It is your opinion that AA has a weak business plan. But AA's plan is no different in principle than the plan that all the other airlines (i.e., Delt
177 JFKPurser : You seem to be implying that the bitterness/cynicism factor's fixability is largely contingent upon the departure of long-timers. The timeline for wh
178 Post contains images commavia : Not at all. What I'm implying is that the people who are being "wronged" in this situation are eventually going to leave. And the new people that rep
179 JFKPurser : Well, Sir I have not seen the specifics of it and am not privy to the details. FOr now it appears that their idea is simply to increase traffic by 20
180 JFKPurser : I suppose this is the million dollar question. Strangely, most of us would kill to have Crandall back in the driver's seat.
181 JFKPurser : So, the thinking is kind of like -- "Let's take the group that has the most impact on the customer and punch them in the face the hardest, even thoug
182 commavia : I share your lack of enthusiasm for the go-cheap approach to capital investment AA has had in the last ten years. The half-refurb of the 763s, the ha
183 commavia : Well then you're basically making AMR's - and all the other legacy airlines' - point. In a free market, if people are still willing to come to work w
184 JFKPurser : Well then you're welcome to stay and watch us fight to the bitter end.
185 darksnowynight : Shafted as in still employed six to 18 months from now? I'm not trying to hit a nerve, but the truth is that that group is not all that bad off, and
186 JFKPurser : If that's what DL FA's are willing willing to settle for, then good for them. AA FAs think they can do better than that, and that's what they are goi
187 DeltaMD90 : They had their chance and voted NO for a union. Nice try If you have a responsible, reasonable company, you won't get screwed left and right and you'
188 darksnowynight : . In a word, selfish. I get what you're saying, but at the same time, you need to understand that that whole paragraph came off as very... enititleme
189 JFKPurser : Thank you for your support.
190 LDVAviation : If you are not privy to the details, how do you know the plan is weak? How do you know that increasing traffic by 20% at all cornerstone markets, plu
191 JFKPurser : Yep. You're right about all of that.
192 ripcordd : AA would be profitable just by doing away with the penisons you throw in some outsourcing, a lot more flying for pilots, some more flying for FA's and
193 Post contains links AA767400 : It won't be. This is thanks to the TW flight attendants themselves. http://afaonevoice.org/images/McCask...xplanation%20FINAL%20for%20WEB.pdf
194 AAIL86 : Can you really blame someone for protecting their interests? You already spoke of previously being a flight attendant- what if you never left? And if
195 JFKPurser : Bravo. We have fought decades not only to keep the perks we have, but to make them better. Now, obviously, in these climate, that needs to be recalib
196 mah4546 : At LGA, AA takes advantage of the "80% rule" and does not use all it's slots. At JFK, AA is hoarding tons of prime time slots perfect for long-haul,
197 JFKPurser : OK. Thanks for clarifying this point.
198 Cubsrule : Of course, but what many workgroups (not just flight attendants) don't seem to understand is that there is no right to earn a certain salary or a cer
199 AAIL86 : And when you broadly treat humans as commodities, you inevitably invite a violent overthrow of the entire system, as happened to Czarist Russia in 19
200 LDVAviation : This is simply not true. Before bankruptcy, news leaked that AA had proposed a two-tier pay system that would have allowed AA to operate its new flee
201 Cubsrule : It's pretty clear that you have some sort of political agenda, which is fine, but you are twisting my words. I was speaking about (and only speaking
202 AAIL86 : No, certainly not. I care about what happens to AA because I have lots of friends there. And this topic certainly becomes more personal when you cons
203 Cubsrule : And yet they pay them as commodities. It demonstrates my point perfectly.
204 Post contains images caliboy78 : [quote=LDVAviation,reply=200]This is simply not true. I applaud your response..... when AA placed the big order in July all you heard was.... we took
205 darksnowynight : Yup. Not even a little bit. Hmmm... Unlikely, but that's largely because I have a tendency to take a holistic point of view on things. If I were in J
206 USAirALB : HAHA that's funny. I was typing on my phone quick, forgive me. Yes, CLT(US) is larger than ORD(UA).
207 BobLoblaw : That would make it 3rd. As such it seems CLT is way way overserrved. CLT larger than UA in ORD in terms of daily flights, but haw about pax and reven
208 HPRamper : CLT is a moneymaker. Overserved...not really, as most of the traffic is connecting anyway. It's not a big O&D hub at all. It may seem like too ma
209 blueheronNC : Hub-and-spoke system is about ferrying people from many points A to many points B. Once you consider that CLT is in a geographically ideal location t
210 Cubsrule : I'm as big a CLT cheerleader as anybody, but that's really not true. CLT's on-time performance has fallen off pretty precipitously over the past few
211 FlyPNS1 : But that's not weather related, it's USAirways overloading the hub during major banks of flights. I would suspect that if US grows much larger they w
212 Cubsrule : No, though if the whole southeast has thunderstorms, the CLT delays tend to be worse than the ATL delays. US' scheduling makes the weather delays (wh
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