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Malev Ceases Operation Part 2  
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13272 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

This is a follow-up thread of part 1 which can be found here: Malev Ceases Operations Part1. Please feel free to contribute to the the discussion as per the airliners.net forum rules.


Rgds

SA7700


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1384 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13063 times:

Flew out again on BUD today with LX. Same strange situation. The Malev check in area was empty, only the LY flight to TLV was checked in there.

The Malev ticketing office is open and looks like everyday. Difference is that the poor ladies inside can't do anyhting than give you a useless certificate that your flight is cancelled due "situation in BUD". In front there is a counter of a travel agent (??) which had the bright idea to make print some banners within minutes which says "Wizzair booking office, Rescue fare of 35 EUR for Malev passengers only". Plus there is a sign to "free internet computers (for flight booking only)", but I guess they've been taken away already. No ones comes to the MA check in area. Ticket office was empty.

Malev lounge is still open (as they serve basically all airlines with exception of LH/LX/OS I guess, even SN and other Star partners). Malev ground handling is still working and taking care of i.e. AF.
The Malev Ground handling transfer counter airside is still open, too, as someone they are handling could need assistance in case of misconnex or an onward boarding pass. The single lady here seems to have no work all day... Not that there were big queues there in the past anyway, when MA was still operating (unless there was an irregularity mabye).

I guess Malev catering has probably not much to do anymore (I mean, all carriers turning around in MA would get the catering at their home airport).

Other than that, the skycourt was quite full with flights to Prague, Düsseldorf, Frankfurt, Paris, Zürich, London and Tel Aviv departing. However after that bunch of flights there would have been no flights for 2 hours or so.

I was wondering what Base Airlines operating the E120 for MA i.e. to BEG would now do? Their 2 aircrafts are covered in snow on a remote position of the apron and have protection things on the props. I guess although Base will technically not be bankrupt there is no customer to fly them anymore...
There is a 737 (beneith the 767) of Malev also in front of the Hangar. Thought they were all flown to Ireland.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12909 times:

Some more depressing pictures from MA's crew centre, taken today....

http://www.airportal.hu/spotter-forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6592

I've spoken to a few of my family in Hungary today (most of who worked for MA at one point or another). Apparently there is a rumor floating around that a group of Hungarian companies/investors are planning a rescue deal for MA, they are hoping to restart the airline on a drastically reduced scale. Although I would dismiss any rumors about MA restarting unless there is solid information coming from the Government itself.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12897 times:

Sorry, double post...

[Edited 2012-02-05 07:53:59]

User currently offlineTommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 460 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 12397 times:

It is a sad day for Hungary.

I also would have expected a new Malev, although I think in the current economically enviroment it is hard to believe.

For me the most heartbreaking was, that they flew all the planes immediately to Shannon leaving BUD empty. Like Malev would have never existed.

Let's wait and see what will happen in the next weeks.

I dont like the idea of BUD becoming a LCC heaven.

I hope economy will go up within the next years.

My thoughts

Tom



Tom from Cologne
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 12265 times:

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 4):
It is a sad day for Hungary.

It does not have to be. It is sad for Malev employees, but as others have stated there are new carriers starting and excisting carriers adding capacity and frequency.

Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 4):
I dont like the idea of BUD becoming a LCC heaven.

Honestly, for us in Hungary that would be a blessing. The wages here are ridiculously low compared to the rest of Europe. Now Ryanair will open a base many more will be able to fly to nice holiday destinations.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12197 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 5):
Now Ryanair will open a base many more will be able to fly to nice holiday destinations.

This is just usual baseless FR cheerleading. There's already U2 and W6 serving quite extensive network so it's not like Hungarians are waiting for low cost carriers to discover Budapest and FR will have no qualms to charge rip-off rates where possible.
Typical Ryanair flight from BUD to the middle of nowhere twice a week will not replace the void left by MA bankruptcy.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 12085 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 6):
Typical Ryanair flight from BUD to the middle of nowhere twice a week will not replace the void left by MA bankruptcy

Budapest to: MAD, BCN, BLQ, DUB, MAN, OSL, BHX etc etc are not middle of nowhere airports, but the main city airports. You might not like FR yourself, but for instance BUD-MAD is a route I travel often, and I just booked it for 5990 HUF, which is about 20 Euros. I dont have any other charges then the CC fee.

I personally wish FR all the best at BUD, and I for sure will use them a lot.


User currently offlineHonza From Czech Republic, joined May 2005, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11802 times:

Poor HALOP is on his way now, too...



User currently offlinemagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11360 times:

Here is a question which may be stupid. Why only LCC can set up a base in BUD? Why not a large legacy carrier?
What if BA would base a few A320/319 in BUD and take over the Malev network, or whatever part of it that was useful for the OneWorld alliance?

There were many arguments for not having a national carrier for every single EU countries.I agree, but then why not allow big legacy carriers establish hubs/focus cities wherever they want in the EU?


User currently offlineflyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11281 times:

I feel saddened by the sudden loss of Malev. I used to fly them and their partner BASe (Budapest Aircraft Service) to Hungary, Athens and Slovenia a few times in the last couple of years. Their 737-600 is also the only one I have flown.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 7):
I personally wish FR all the best at BUD, and I for sure will use them a lot.

You maybe, but no serious businessman will use them. I fly FR sometimes personally, but handling cancelled flights, lost luggage, overweight luggage etc. is a nightmare with them. Not to mention that connections are virtually impossible with them. When I fly for business, I need some flexibility and my company is willing to pay for that. My time is valuable for the company when I'm working, not when I'm queueing at the airline counter. This applies to most business travellers. If your time is charged from the customer at a rate of 200 euros per hour or more, trying to get the last 50 euro saving by travelling with FR is just plain pointless.

I guess AY will increase their connections to BUD as well. There is a significant Nokia operations in Hungary and when flying between HEL and BUD, there was always Nokia people onboard. There has been 4 daily flights between the cities (2 AY and 2 MA flights).


User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 11244 times:

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):
but then why not allow big legacy carriers establish hubs/focus cities wherever they want in the EU?

There is full cabotage in Europe, so within the European Union there is nothing stopping an European airlines to set up a base and operate wherever they want within the EU (including domestic flights), unless there are slot issue but this is not the case in Budapest. It they want to operate to a country outside the EU it is more complicated because of bilaterals.

For instance Lufthansa started Lufthansa Italia and Air France has CityJet in the UK. Air France was even able to start flights from London to the USA thanks to the Open Skies agreement between the EU and the USA.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 10542 times:

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):

Here is a question which may be stupid. Why only LCC can set up a base in BUD? Why not a large legacy carrier?

They are allowed. Just like LH started Lufthansa Italia in MXP. There is no (legal) difference between a LCC or network-carrier.

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):
What if BA would base a few A320/319 in BUD and take over the Malev network, or whatever part of it that was useful for the OneWorld alliance?

They'd find it very hard to make it profitable. That's the reason we don't see network carriers creating new bases.

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):
or whatever part of it that was useful for the OneWorld alliance?

With MA bankrupt, the OneWorld aspect in Hungary is not really relevant anymore, except (maybe) a slightly higher share of BA Executive Club or Finnair Plus members. Duna Club miles became worthless, so no difference here.

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):
Why not a large legacy carrier?

So far, legacy carriers have not been successful in setting up bases outside their main hub. Actually, there is a trend of dismantling minor hubs rather than setting them up.

In a way, the Budapest-case is a first-timer in Europe: a nation's primary carrier, operating a medium-sized hub, ceases operations. However, when looking at some other airports that have found themselves in a (more or less) comparable situation, BUD's situation doesn't look bright.

- FlyLal operated a small network out of VNO, aimed at connecting Europe's major cities in a business-friendly schedule. They also codeshared on the VNO-AMS flights to tag onto KL's intercontinental network. After their demise, Star1, BT and OV tried to operate such a network, but all failed. Now, VNO is a W6 base, a FR destination, and is linked by only a few network carriers to their hubs. (BA, KL, AF didn't start service to the airport). A main difference is that Vilnius' catchment area is smaller than Budapest's (explaining the lack of connections to LHR/AMS/CDG), but starting a new network seems very difficult.

- In Spain, BCN has a sizeable catchment area, but no network carrier. BCN's catchment area is arguably bigger than BUD's, but still IB has found that it was not profitable running a full-service network carrier from BCN, and the same goes (unfortunately) for JK. Now, for BCN, we'll see that they are linked perfectly (high frequencies) to all European hubs, they have a fair share of long-haul connections, and a "main-airport LCC" (Vueling) offering business-friendly routes to main airports (7x daily BCN-ORY, 4x daily BCN-AMS, for example). And FR and U2. But no "home" network carrier.

- In the UK, main airports like MAN or EDI see a similar network to BCN: good connections to the main hubs, and 4 LCC-like carriers (BE, U2, LS, FR) fighting for market share. But no BA network.

FlyBE is, in a way, an interesting carrier. Their on-board product and price-structure resembles an LCC, but their network - for a number of routes - is aimed at business pax. Also, they are willing to get involved in interline agreements and code shares. If well-played, FlyBE *might* be an interesting option for Budapest. I don't expect them om main routes (AMS, CDG, FRA), but on abandoned routes in central and eastern Europe.


User currently offlinelauda777 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10268 times:

Well guys words can't express it's like losing a family member, I was born in Budapest and my first ever flight was on Malév in 1986 on probably a TU154 or 134 I was only 6 years old too young to remember, I have been living in Australia since I was 7 years old and haven't flown Malév since but it it was always something I was proud of being Hungarian and knowing it was a much loved airline with great service and caring staff that looked after you, what saddens me more is I have a trip planned this August and booked tickets 2 weeks ago, I couldn't believe it when I heard the news I was so looking forward to fly with Malév again and now I'm afraid it will never happen again, I'm holding out hope for a restart before I rebook my flights but whatever happens I hope the employees get their entitlements I can't imagine the sadness and hardship for them at this difficult time.
I don't want to fly a LCC it's just not the same, my whole trip was planned out with Qatar,BA and Malév  



We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10078 times:
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A few more pics of the Malev fleet at SNN I took yesterday

http://www.flickr.com/photos/65739000@N08/?saved=1

Apologies if they're not great. I only just got a new Sony NEX5 before Christmas and haven't quite got the hang of it yet! I also don't have a particurarly powerful lense and the SNN weather made it nigh impossible to get some good pics for everyone but the most talented photographers. Note also the BA747-400 abandoned on the taxiway near the MA fleet that can be seen in the shots taken from the terminal. This was one of the diversions due to the snow at LHR. There was also a BA 777 parked at the terminal while I was there.



Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9974 times:

Sorry A.Netters for this question:

After reading much about Malev's Ceases Operation and much more I wondered what the reason is (was) to "ship" almost the hole fleet from BUD to SNN. Maybe I missed reading something also in the previous post?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Trevor Mulkerrins



Thank's in adv.


User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9854 times:
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Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 15):
After reading much about Malev's Ceases Operation and much more I wondered what the reason is (was) to "ship" almost the hole fleet from BUD to SNN. Maybe I missed reading something also in the previous post?

International Lease Finance Corporation who are the leasing company has a base at SNN. Apparently they wanted to get their aircraft back to where they had control over them ASAP in case they got impounded at foreign airports as a result of MA not paying airport charges. SNN has plenty of remote parking area and is frequently used for short term storage of aircraft returning from lease. I think the plan is to keep them in MA colours for a short period in case some angle investor decides to bail MA out. After that, they will likely be repainted at SNN and redeployed to new leasors. There are rumours that the B737-600s may be sold or even scrapped as there is little demand out there for them.



Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9839 times:

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 15):
I wondered what the reason is (was) to "ship" almost the hole fleet from BUD to SNN. Maybe I missed reading something also in the previous post?

It's in reply 86:
Malev Ceases Operations Part 1 (by keuleatr72 Feb 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)#86


User currently offlineFabo From Slovakia, joined Aug 2005, 1219 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9838 times:

Basically ILFC wanted it out of the way, various possible reasons include
-to avoid BUD parking fees, possible impounding
-to avoid someone "nationalising" the fleet
-to have them at an airport where needed mx care (even for parking) can be provided
-maybe to have them readily available in case some airline decides they need a 737 and they need it now.



The light at the end of tunnel turn out to be a lighted sing saying NO EXIT
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 17):
It's in reply 86:
Malev Ceases Operations Part 1 (by keuleatr72 Feb 2 2012 in Civil Aviation)#86

Thank you joost and is clear now.


User currently offlineCO38 From Norway, joined May 2009, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9550 times:

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 16):
There are rumours that the B737-600s may be sold or even scrapped as there is little demand out there for them.

Would be a shame if they get scrapped.

Maybe theres a market for them as BBJs? According to reply number 8 in the "2011 Aircraft Values and lease pricing." thread they have a market value between 11.0 and 19.5 mill USD.
Could be a cheaper way to aquire a BBJ with a 4000NM range and nearly the same cabin space as the original BBJ.

Or a current 735 operator could perhaps be interrested in these birds. Replacing aging aircraft with a similar capacity NG model. SK comes to mind.


User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 567 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9516 times:

Its always sad seeing an airline close down, I hope MA will get back in the air again and soon.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9517 times:

Quoting Fabo (Reply 18):
Basically ILFC wanted it out of the way, various possible reasons include
-to avoid BUD parking fees, possible impounding
-to avoid someone "nationalising" the fleet
-to have them at an airport where needed mx care (even for parking) can be provided
-maybe to have them readily available in case some airline decides they need a 737 and they need it now.

That makes all sense, however why did MA bother to allocate its own scarce resources to ferry them to SNN? Why not let ILFC sort it out themselves?


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9456 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 22):
That makes all sense, however why did MA bother to allocate its own scarce resources to ferry them to SNN? Why not let ILFC sort it out themselves?

ILFC did. ILFC paid fuel, eurocontrol and the (ex-Malev) crew. For the crew, it's simply work. If MA-crew would not be willing to fly the planes (and get paid for doing so), ILFC would hire another crew right away.

Quoting CO38 (Reply 20):
Or a current 735 operator could perhaps be interrested in these birds. Replacing aging aircraft with a similar capacity NG model. SK comes to mind.

I doubt SK is interested in second-hand 736s. SK just ordered second-hand 737-700s and A320NEOs (new of course). In fact, their 1999 SE-DNU 737-600 has already been scrapped at Kemble in 2010.

Quoting CO38 (Reply 20):
Maybe theres a market for them as BBJs?

Except for airlines looking for the specific characteristics of the 736, or need an aircraft really quickly, the only sensible destination for a 736 is for Business Jet conversions or to be parted out. Interesting enough, Boeing doesn't even offer 737-600 BBJs new, but the second-hand market is different of course. The current economic climate doesn't help, though.


User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9221 times:

Is their ENTIRE fleet now at SNN? Or are some planes still stuck somewhere else?

User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 25, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9470 times:
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Quoting rj777 (Reply 24):
Is their ENTIRE fleet now at SNN? Or are some planes still stuck somewhere else?

I think all but two of the B737 fleet are not at SNN. There was one B737 stuck at DUB and another at IST when they ceased operations. As far as I know, neither of those aircraft have returned to SNN as of yet. I have no idea of where the the remainder of the MA fleet are or where they will be heading.



Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlineeicvd From Ireland, joined Mar 2008, 2188 posts, RR: 5
Reply 26, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9404 times:

Quoting rj777 (Reply 24):

One 737 was still in DUB as of last night.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9687 times:

Very sad and such a shame that a national carrier should go under like this.
Do you think there is a chance that the airline could relaunch with less routes and aircraft?
The route to Beirut was really convenient and often the cheapest way for me to get there.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 28, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9657 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 27):
Do you think there is a chance that the airline could relaunch with less routes and aircraft?

Every day they aren't relaunched makes it less likely. LH and AB already started HAM and TXL routes today, and practically all carriers are adding capacity like crazy. Especially W6, FR and QS will launch flights very quickly. The more bookings these carriers are getting now, the more difficult it will be for MA to relaunch.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1718 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9579 times:

Ryanair are going to do very well in Budapest.. they must have been planning a base there for a while to come up with such a comprehensive schedule so quickly? Were they waiting for the demise of Malev?

Where are they getting the capacity from also? Do they have spare aircraft sitting around?



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9589 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 28):
Quoting raffik (Reply 27):
Do you think there is a chance that the airline could relaunch with less routes and aircraft?

Every day they aren't relaunched makes it less likely.

   My thoughts exactly! If this new airline was to launch, it would have to launch immediately after MA's demise.

Quoting raffik (Reply 29):
Where are they getting the capacity from also? Do they have spare aircraft sitting around?

Yes, they had quite a few aircraft grounded this winter since there's not a lot of demand.

[Edited 2012-02-06 08:12:22]

[Edited 2012-02-06 08:17:25]

User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 9535 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 29):
they must have been planning a base there for a while to come up with such a comprehensive schedule so quickly? Were they waiting for the demise of Malev?

Of course, although not necessarily MA. They probably have out-of-the-box schedules like this available for many other European airports, in order to be able to respond this quickly. (Just like news papers have their obituaries ready for important politicians, royalties, celebrities, the pope, etc., to be able to publish an article quickly).

Quoting raffik (Reply 29):
Where are they getting the capacity from also? Do they have spare aircraft sitting around?

This winter, FR 'grounded' 80 aircraft. It's not that they stored the aircraft, but for their winter schedule, they have 80 aircraft spare. (which are simply rotated through the network). Many employees are on temporary contracts, but can be hired quickly. This allows them for setting-up a base that quickly.

During the summer, most of these aircraft should be flying, but because they are still receiving new frames, they can always respond quickly to these situations.

Quoting raffik (Reply 27):
The route to Beirut was (...) often the cheapest way for me to get there.

Here you might have an indication for their bankruptcy. Always being the cheapest isn't good when you want to make money.

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 30):
My thoughts exactly! If this new airline was to relaunch, it would have to relaunch immediately after MA's demise.

Indeed, now the abandoned routes are being filled by other carriers like crazy.

Last Friday, Anna.aero posted a list of 27 monopoly routes served by MA (and they missed TXL, so actually 28). http://www.anna.aero/2012/02/03/male...-27-monopoly-routes-from-budapest/

Now, only 3 days later, the situation is as follows:
- TXL and HAM have already been started by LH / AB
- SKG, RHO and AGP have been announced by FR
- ATH has been announced by A3
- HER and LCA have been 'replaced' by FR, by CHQ and PAP
- GOT and MXP are not replaced yet, but W6 already serves GSE and BGY, and FR just added capacity to both routes



Aegean To Launch Athens>Budapest (by ju068 Feb 6 2012 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9466 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 30):
My thoughts exactly! If this new airline was to launch, it would have to launch immediately after MA's demise.

Just saw this article. I hope it's more than wishful thinking.

A government official states that the chances of new national carrier will being launched is greater than 50%.

http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/t..._malev_in_hungary_rogan.23741.html



KrisYYZ


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 9423 times:

The government official needs to understand that it's not just about the launch itself, it's about capturing the market share after you start. And if FR (especially FR with their new base), W6 and legacies settle in the market well, it will be extremely hard for the new carrier to operate. I too really hope that MA will be relaunched in one way or another, but I highly doubt it will be possible if the government doesn't react not fast, but now.

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4927 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 9250 times:

Smartwings have today announced a new BUD operation. Booking engine currently just has CDG/ATH/BCN/LCA available from BUD. Press release also lists AMS while route map also has a lot of other routes showing from BUD

Frequencies from press release
CDG - 2xDaily
AMS - 1xDaily
LCA - 4xWeek
ATH - 3xWeek
BCN - 3xWeek
http://www.smartwings.com/news.php?id=113

I wonder if some routes could end up seeing over capacity. I'm sure BCN for example is going to end with more capacity than before Malev collapsed.

[Edited 2012-02-06 10:45:41]


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User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9128 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 34):
I wonder if some routes could end up seeing over capacity. I'm sure BCN for example is going to end with more capacity than before Malev collapsed.

As many carriers are chasing after the market left by Malev, there will be a short period of overcapacity. After the summer months, this will probably revert back to normal.

When Sterling ceased operations, many carriers started to fight for the market share: DY, CI and HV all started flights from CPH. Transavia's stepped down after 2 years.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 34):
Smartwings have today announced a new BUD operation. Booking engine currently just has CDG/ATH/BCN/LCA available from BUD. Press release also lists AMS while route map also has a lot of other routes showing from BUD

I hope they'll do better at AMS than with their AMS-PRG route in 2004-2006 and 2010; the second time it was started after SkyEurope went bankrupt. Smartwings' reputation was quite bad at the times, as they suffered from hefty delays an cancellations.


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9078 times:

RO might be interested in some of those B737's, not the B736, but the B737 and B738's. They had just returned 2 B738's to Air Berlin, and are looking for more planes. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those birds will end up with RO. It is really sad to see Malev go. I flew with them many times and always had great service.

User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8992 times:
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Quoting Humberside (Reply 34):

Frequencies from press release
CDG - 2xDaily
AMS - 1xDaily
LCA - 4xWeek
ATH - 3xWeek
BCN - 3xWeek
http://www.smartwings.com/news.php?id=113

Thanks for that!! Budapest-Larnaca starts at €220 tax included which is not that bad. Unfortunately the arrival time to Budapest is horrible (00:50), then again Malev's night flight used to depart LCA at 04:20 and arrive to BUD at 06:00.
It's a good move to launch Budapest-Larnaca as Paphos (operated by Ryanair) is quite far, over 150 kms from Nicosia. Not to mention that Larnaca's location is much better since it is located in the middle between Agia Napa, Nicosia and Paphos.


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8951 times:

Quoting Humberside (Reply 34):
Smartwings have today announced a new BUD operation. Booking engine currently just has CDG/ATH/BCN/LCA available from BUD. Press release also lists AMS while route map also has a lot of other routes showing from BUD

Frequencies from press release
CDG - 2xDaily
AMS - 1xDaily
LCA - 4xWeek
ATH - 3xWeek
BCN - 3xWeek
http://www.smartwings.com/news.php?id=113

Sounds like a base, 2 or 3 aircraft. Are they going to receive additional aircraft from Travel Service? And they didn't include start dates in the press release. Looking at CDG on their website and it starts at the end of March.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 39, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8873 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 36):
RO might be interested in some of those B737's, not the B736, but the B737 and B738's. They had just returned 2 B738's to Air Berlin, and are looking for more planes. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those birds will end up with RO.

These planes can practically go anywhere. When looking at airfleets.net at the fate of 737NG aircraft from European carriers who went bankrupt in the last 5 years (Sterling, SkyEurope, Futura, FlyGlobespan, XL Airways), you'll see they basically end up all over the world. Some carriers seem to be more active in acquiring these frames than other, though, and Aerolineas Argentinas, Gol, Garuda, Turkish/Anadolujet/SunExpress seem to be among the more active buyers / leasers of these aircraft. But if RO is currently in the market for 1 or 2 737s, they have probably already made a phonecall to ILFC.


User currently offlineMH017 From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 1692 posts, RR: 30
Reply 40, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8892 times:

What happened to the Q400's: still stored at BUD or also flown to SNN ?


don't throw away tomorrow !
User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8766 times:
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Quoting MH017 (Reply 40):
What happened to the Q400's: still stored at BUD or also flown to SNN ?

They are not at SNN anyway so presumably they are still at BUD.



Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8687 times:

There is so much to say, and so much to argue with some of you, especially those with the air of patronage claiming why and how this is right and this is the way it had to happen and becoming an LCC heaven is the best future BUD could get...

...it was not, there are "national airlines" in a much worse shape that soldier on with "tax money pumped" yet it was our government (yes I do not really blame the EU nor others) that left MA to die in such a disgraceful way...

...as for how good all this was for the BUD departing customers? Well I had to re-arrange all my flights I already had in my calendar and guess what oh' great competition defenders... my costs minimum doubled (but in some cases tripled).

Let me get you an example: I have 4 round trips (that I know of) to FRA up until the end of April, all of them are "relatively" mid-priced trips (meaning, no business class, no "same-day" returns; but, no weekends either and keeping in mind important factors, like flying out early in the morning and returning in the evening to maximize workable time) so with those conditions there are no "ECO" class tickets under 280-290 EUR out in April even! (don't just look at first prices in the table, the few "cheap" options that are utilizing last evening flight out and early return make no sense to me)
Anyway, whoever tries to explain me that loosing competition was a good thing...well...

LCCs are not going to lower the prices...they serve a whole different market. As for the Smartwings...hah...lets not even waist characters on them and their service  

Just another impact on me: I just also re-booked 2 flight with EK to HKG and SIN that I chose to take via MXP, because of the great Business class fares they had from there...Now I had to re-book them out of VIE (with huge expenses), because there is no sensible way to fly the BUD-MXP-BUD sectors...

And the whining could go on, but the most important thing is: GOOD BYE BLUE NOSE fleet   




Peet7G
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 43, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8589 times:
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Quoting PEET7G (Reply 42):

I asked you in the previous thread that got blocked, what kind of things the newspapers are writting now? I remember that before the demise of Malev they were constantly attacking them.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8529 times:

tonymctigue

I did not know that there was a B737 stuck in IST, but I thought HA-LOA was in TLV.

Honza

Is HA-LOP in SNN yet.


User currently offlinetonymctigue From Ireland, joined Feb 2006, 1961 posts, RR: 9
Reply 45, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8501 times:
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Quoting bennett123 (Reply 44):
I did not know that there was a B737 stuck in IST, but I thought HA-LOA was in TLV.

It is possible that I'm mistaking. I cannot confirm the registerations of the B737s at SNN as I don't work there. I can only report what I can see from the various viewing areas but I'm sure if you post your question on the Irish forum you will get an answer.

[Edited 2012-02-06 14:07:43]


Next Flights: CX178 MEL-HKG; CX257 HKG-LHR; EI387 LHR-SNN; EI384 SNN-LHR; CX250 LHR-HKG; CX135 HKG-MEL
User currently offlineContnlEliteCMH From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1465 posts, RR: 44
Reply 46, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8518 times:

Per http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...ev-stoppage-idUSTRE8121JS20120203, Malev had 2,600 employees to operate 22 aircraft. Per Wikipedia, they operated 50 destinations.

How many flights per day did Malev operate?



Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 47, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8478 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 42):
There is so much to say, and so much to argue with some of you, especially those with the air of patronage claiming why and how this is right and this is the way it had to happen and becoming an LCC heaven is the best future BUD could get...

...it was not, there are "national airlines" in a much worse shape that soldier on with "tax money pumped" yet it was our government (yes I do not really blame the EU nor others) that left MA to die in such a disgraceful way...

Wouldn't it be more correct to say the ones that have the air of patronage are the ones who presume full-service airlines are a god-given right, even if they lose money hand over fist?

Isn't it wrong to justify one bad act by pointing to another bad act?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1384 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8489 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 12):
- In Spain, BCN has a sizeable catchment area, but no network carrier. BCN's catchment area is arguably bigger than BUD's, but still IB has found that it was not profitable running a full-service network carrier from BCN, and the same goes (unfortunately) for JK. Now, for BCN, we'll see that they are linked perfectly (high frequencies) to all European hubs, they have a fair share of long-haul connections, and a "main-airport LCC" (Vueling) offering business-friendly routes to main airports (7x daily BCN-ORY, 4x daily BCN-AMS, for example). And FR and U2. But no "home" network carrier.

On a side note, VY is operating a "hub" in BCN. It's absolute possible to book several VY legs in one ticket, i.e. if issued with IB flight number in IB stock. But sizewise it is nothing close as the JK operation.

Quoting tonymctigue (Reply 41):
They are not at SNN anyway so presumably they are still at BUD.

At least on sunday, 2 DH8 were at the end of the active runway, near Terminal 1. And the one DH8 with the retro scheme was on the regular terminal apron.


User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 49, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8473 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 43):
I asked you in the previous thread that got blocked, what kind of things the newspapers are writting now?

Sorry, must have slipped my sight, I hardly have mood to even read thing around here  

The media is full of personal stories, fotos of crews crying and kissing every departing plane goodbye. The departure of the MA fleet was covered in forums, on TV and in the newspapers. There was huge crowd of civilians standing at the fences. Spotters, ordinary people, mothers and fathers with children, old and young even in the freezing cold. A whole armada of recordings of the last communications of every departing Blue Nose bird is up on the net (and was played in the news on TV and Radios) even tower communications with the Bratislava control, who with tears in his voice wished good night to every MA flight in Hungarian, and also commenting his wish to hear the MALEV call-sign in the ether again as soon as possible.

I knew that Malev had a special spot in the hearts and minds here, but I never imagined that even after 4 days there is a sense all over, and everyone is talking about the issue with unimaginable anger on the streets, on the media, etc. What surprises me is a whole bunch of sadness from Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, and all over the Balkans... I receive calls from partner offices all over, with ordinary people having no real passion for aviation calling just to confirm if the news is true, and not believing this has happened...

Of course today, as it was Monday the articles start to be about the impact of the demise of MA, especially its economical impact. Here is a very good article, that simply makes it unbelievable how huge loss this is going to be. Unfortunatley it is in Hungarian only, but the important facts are:

- MA got 74% of its income out of tickets sold to foreigners (74% is the revenue and not the passenger numbers! this means MA managed to sell higher priced fare abroad!)
- The impact on EX-IM ratio is huge, mainly because from now on not only those foreign revenus will not be turned into Hungarian economy's flow, but on the contrary, the Hungarians money buying tickets will feed foreign economies (so double losses there!)
- MA returned a huge proportion of their revenue into Hungarian economy, as everything they served, utilized was "home grown product". Even their maintenance was in-house, utilizing high class domestic labor!
- The negative impact on the Hungarian GDP can be as high as 0,5% (that is huge from a single company!)

Not in this article, but there was also an analysis of how huge effect this will have on large Hungarian based corporations like MOL (the oil company with huge investments all over the Balkans) OTP (The Bank system with also huge investments and networks all over the region) the analysis was all about what we at our company also face: no direct links to our outposts, and thus a huge financial and time-consuming way to reach there from now on...

...so basically first there where mourning articles, and today they started to analyses the financial impacts, and of course the never ending political finger-pointing on each other about who caused the death of MA, and as the 2011 reports start coming in, ever more questions arise about how could this have happened to a company, that was in a self restructuring, and proved operational profitability as a result of that.

The biggest problem is (according to another article, and I totally agree) that the government has made no plans (and even now they are sitting still and waiting for miracle to happen) to start up a new MALEV out of scratch. While their biggest enemy is time, because the market reacts quickly, and by the time they might be ready for a relaunch, their market-share will be gone in a flash  

...as I already said before, even the worst case scenario should have been bankruptcy protection for MALEV, re-organizing a "new" MALEV, bankrupt the old MALEV, and immediately restart operations (maybe within days and not months!) with a new MALEV. Unfortunately they managed to figure out an even worse case scenario  



Peet7G
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 50, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8446 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 44):
I did not know that there was a B737 stuck in IST, but I thought HA-LOA was in TLV.

You are correct, HA-LOA is still in TLV while HA-LOI is stuck in DUB.
HA-LOP returned yesterday evening to SNN, and there is HA-LOB still in the Aeroplex hangar at BUD awaiting the finish of some maintenance work, and will fly out to join the others at SNN when the works are finished.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 47):
Isn't it wrong to justify one bad act by pointing to another bad act?

I think you are correct, but I can not set emotions aside, please excuse me for that.

However there is a huge difference here, to many of the previous fallen carriers.

1, MA had a viable development track, and it seemed achievable
2, BUD is left without a "home carrier" (and I know many will bring up W6 again, and even FR, but those are no replacement for "business" travelers, as well as no option for connecting traffic in the region
and of course there are many things more here...

Quoting raffik (Reply 29):
Ryanair are going to do very well in Budapest.. they must have been planning a base there for a while to come up with such a comprehensive schedule so quickly? Were they waiting for the demise of Malev?

Not really, BUD airport has today made a statement that they don't know why FR is advertising these routes, as they still have not come into agreement with them apart from the already announced 5 routes, and that they are not willing to make compromises and let them selves get raped by FR just because MA is gone...so there are only negotiations going on between FR and BUD airport. (I am proud for BUD management for taking a stand against this scavenger, if they want to fly from here then pay the fees...period)

Quoting magyar (Reply 9):
Here is a question which may be stupid. Why only LCC can set up a base in BUD? Why not a large legacy carrier?
What if BA would base a few A320/319 in BUD and take over the Malev network, or whatever part of it that was useful for the OneWorld alliance?

There were many arguments for not having a national carrier for every single EU countries.I agree, but then why not allow big legacy carriers establish hubs/focus cities wherever they want in the EU?

I don't find that idea stupid at all, and I can see something on the lines like Lufthansa Italia was at MXP.

I can accept the consolidation of the market, but BUD is too important not to have direct services it had just last week even.



Peet7G
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 51, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8384 times:
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Quoting PEET7G (Reply 49):

Thank you very much for the reply. I guess that no newspaper in Hungary saw this coming hence why they were sending out so much negative publicity about Malev.

This news came as a shock for many in Serbia since 90% of travellers during the 1990s used to fly out of Budapest. Malév has a special place in our hearts making it difficult to realize they are gone.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 50):
Not really, BUD airport has today made a statement that they don't know why FR is advertising these routes, as they still have not come into agreement with them apart from the already announced 5 routes, and that they are not willing to make compromises and let them selves get raped by FR just because MA is gone...so there are only negotiations going on between FR and BUD airport. (I am proud for BUD management for taking a stand against this scavenger, if they want to fly from here then pay the fees...period)

Could it be that there are signs from the Hungarian government that Malév will be reborn, hence why they are not ready to give everything Ryanair is asking for?

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 50):
2, BUD is left without a "home carrier" (and I know many will bring up W6 again, and even FR, but those are no replacement for "business" travelers, as well as no option for connecting traffic in the region
and of course there are many things more here...

Not to mention that they are operating out of a completely different terminal. One could even argue that Ferihegy 1 and 2 are two different airports sharing a common runway.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 49):
- MA got 74% of its income out of tickets sold to foreigners (74% is the revenue and not the passenger numbers! this means MA managed to sell higher priced fare abroad!)

I am sure a large part of that came from Cyprus. Last summer they used to operate 9 weekly flights on board their B737-800!


User currently offlineakiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8340 times:

I raised this in the previous thread, but it could feed the curious mind very well: what motive did the W6 CEO, who was a former MA CEO, have to complain to the European Commission about the so-called "illegal" state aid MA was receiving?

User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8317 times:

Quoting akiestar (Reply 52):
I raised this in the previous thread, but it could feed the curious mind very well: what motive did the W6 CEO, who was a former MA CEO, have to complain to the European Commission about the so-called "illegal" state aid MA was receiving?

Well he and his team where kicked out from MA management, he then pledged revenge...it is a Hungarian mentality unfortunately. We have a saying here, that the biggest harm to a Hungarian can only be caused by a Hungarian  

As well as Mr Viktor Orban, the now PM, he was left behind by an MA flight to YYZ (they served Toronto with their 767s then) during his last session (1998-2002) he then pledged that MA employees will hang by their ankle along the fence of BUD once (thats how I heard on the corridors of MA offices)...he complied with that  
Quoting ju068 (Reply 51):
Could it be that there are signs from the Hungarian government that Malév will be reborn, hence why they are not ready to give everything Ryanair is asking for?

Unfortunately only the opposite is beginning to form, they are more and more saying that the market will fill the void left by MA. They have no plans, 0, null... only if a real professional investor will volunteer to give it a try again can I see any hope now  
Quoting ju068 (Reply 51):
Not to mention that they are operating out of a completely different terminal. One could even argue that Ferihegy 1 and 2 are two different airports sharing a common runway.

It is rumored that Terminal 1 will close and all operations will be moved to Terminal 2.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 51):
I am sure a large part of that came from Cyprus. Last summer they used to operate 9 weekly flights on board their B737-800!

Yes Cyprus was huge moneymaker for them, as well as Greece, no wonder A3 is making a move on the ATH-BUD market, however MA had a huge amount of connecting passengers from Greece to their network.


...just an interesting news, the Hungarian Consumer Protection might start inspections against FR because they are falsely advertising routes they yet have 0 agreements on, thus all statements made by them, and even selling tickets is seriously unlawful.



Peet7G
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8019 times:
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Quoting akiestar (Reply 52):

Well he probably knew that it would bring Mal

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 53):
Unfortunately only the opposite is beginning to form, they are more and more saying that the market will fill the void left by MA. They have no plans, 0, null... only if a real professional investor will volunteer to give it a try again can I see any hope now

Ah what a shame, I doubt anyone would be interested now... I guess this will have a negative impact on the current coalition during the next elections. They should have thought of that when they agreed to let Malev go bankrupt.
Look at what happened after the demise of Balkan in Bulgaria. They formed a much smaller airline which was the successor of the airline which mostly serves the O&D market out of Sofia.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 53):
It is rumored that Terminal 1 will close and all operations will be moved to Terminal 2.

Hmm does that mean that lowcost airlines will have to pay higher fees to fly into Budapest?

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 53):
Yes Cyprus was huge moneymaker for them, as well as Greece, no wonder A3 is making a move on the ATH-BUD market, however MA had a huge amount of connecting passengers from Greece to their network.

I was told by the people who worked for Malév in Cyprus that the Larnaca was one of the most profitable routes for the airline. It was so profitable that they even kept their office open until the last day!


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 55, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 7857 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 49):
The biggest problem is (according to another article, and I totally agree) that the government has made no plans (and even now they are sitting still and waiting for miracle to happen) to start up a new MALEV out of scratch.

That does not make sense. Why would any government want to run an airline nowadays and bleed tax money on it?? let smart private investors decide if there is a businesscase for an airlinehub or not. My opinion is still that Budapest does not need a legacy carrier. The market is clearly to small and too low yielding.

The business travelers trhat are there can easily fly KLM, Lufthansa, BA etc etc.


User currently offlineart From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3398 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7857 times:

"Hungarian-based Wizz Air (W6) announced it will invest HUF25 billion ($100 million) into expanding its Budapest operations after state-owned Malev Hungarian Airlines ceased operations Friday (ATW Daily News, Feb. 6).

W6 said it will add two Airbus A320s at the base in March, representing a 66% increase in capacity. It expects yearly passengers carried to reach 2 million—up 42.9% over its previous estimate of 1.4 million."

http://atwonline.com/airports-routes...on-expand-budapest-operations-0206


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 57, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7732 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 54):
Quoting PEET7G (Reply 53):
It is rumored that Terminal 1 will close and all operations will be moved to Terminal 2.

Hmm does that mean that lowcost airlines will have to pay higher fees to fly into Budapest?

Noooo, please stay at Terminal 1. Its a much better terminal with easy ground transportation by train to the citycenter. Terminal 2 is a long ride by bus or taxi over a small very bumpy road.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 58, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7703 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 54):
Hmm does that mean that lowcost airlines will have to pay higher fees to fly into Budapest?

Does it really make such difference as to what terminal they use rather than what airport services they order?


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7643 times:
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Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 58):
Does it really make such difference as to what terminal they use rather than what airport services they order?

Well I do not know how it works in Budapest but in Belgrade the usage of Terminal 1 (older) in stead of Terminal 2 is cheaper no matter what services you use.


User currently offlinelauda777 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7628 times:

Like I said I had flights booked with Malév for my holiday in August but after reading some of the posts here I will not be flying with any of these LCC's as they are nothing but a bunch of parasites and will not get my money.
Looks like I will have no choice but to rebook with KLM for my BUD-AMS flight albeit for more money, but still better than paying $500AUD and having to land in Eindhoven what a joke.



We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
User currently offlinechrisrad From Australia, joined Dec 2000, 1072 posts, RR: 8
Reply 61, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7612 times:

Quoting lauda777 (Reply 60):
Like I said I had flights booked with Malév for my holiday in August but after reading some of the posts here I will not be flying with any of these LCC's as they are nothing but a bunch of parasites and will not get my money.
Looks like I will have no choice but to rebook with KLM for my BUD-AMS flight albeit for more money, but still better than paying $500AUD and having to land in Eindhoven what a joke.

I have similarly had to re-book my FRA-BUD-FRA flights. Air Berlin ended up being the cheapest and most convenient going there, and LH going back.

I've seen KLM prices for BUD-AMS for around $176 AUD return.



Welcome aboard Malaysia Airlines! Winner of Best Cabin Staff 2001,2002,2003,2004,2007,2009,2012
User currently offlinelauda777 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 62, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 7597 times:

Yeah well there's 3 of us going so KLM is gonna cost me around $670 where as I had the tickets booked on Malév for $500   Wizz Air wanna charge me $500 to Eindhoven after I add baggage etc it's just not worth it, undecided what I'm doing but a LCC would want to be actually cheap for me to consider them.


We remind passengers all flights are non smoking, if you are caught smoking you will be asked to sit outside on the wing
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 63, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 7535 times:

Quoting lauda777 (Reply 62):
Wizz Air wanna charge me $500 to Eindhoven after I add baggage etc it's just not worth it, undecided what I'm doing but a LCC would want to be actually cheap for me to consider them.

Ryanair has 9,99 euro one way fares now Eindhoven - Budapest. Also Smartwings will start Amsterdam - Budapest soon, they are Czech, I flew them Amsterdam - Prague. Nothing to complain about, both times landed early.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7413 times:

It's interesting to compare:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 55):
That does not make sense. Why would any government want to run an airline nowadays and bleed tax money on it?? let smart private investors decide if there is a businesscase for an airlinehub or not. My opinion is still that Budapest does not need a legacy carrier. The market is clearly to small and too low yielding.

to:

Quoting lauda777 (Reply 62):
Yeah well there's 3 of us going so KLM is gonna cost me around $670 where as I had the tickets booked on Malév for $500

Not hard for me at least to reach the conclusion that MA wasn't charging what it takes to run a full-service airline.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 65, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7410 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):

Not hard for me at least to reach the conclusion that MA wasn't charging what it takes to run a full-service airline.

Based on what? One guy's booking to one of 50 destinations flown by Malev?


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 66, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7380 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 65):
Based on what? One guy's booking to one of 50 destinations flown by Malev?

Well, that, and the bankruptcy...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 67, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7391 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Well, that, and the bankruptcy...

If you read carefully what was written before Malev was making money and the only reason why it went into bankruptcy is because it had to pay back the €350 million.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 7374 times:

Another airline victim of EU's double standards...

In the 1990's BUD profited from the wars and sanctions in ex-YU and took away from BEG the role of region's hub. Only blind people at JU can't see the chance of opening a BUD-BEG service and making the same thing happen the other way around, while making passenger transiting through BEG, as it already does from smaller airports in the region.

PS: Why was the entire MA's fleet leased from ILFC?

PS2: Is it true that the Hungarian government will have to pay 1.5 billion to the operator of BUD for MA's bankrupcy?


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 69, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 67):
If you read carefully what was written before Malev was making money and the only reason why it went into bankruptcy is because it had to pay back the €350 million.

So it wasnt making money then if the €350 million was illegal aid that other carriers didnt receive.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 70, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7236 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 67):
If you read carefully what was written before Malev was making money and the only reason why it went into bankruptcy is because it had to pay back the €350 million.

If that were so, then I have to agree with PEET7G:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 49):
...as I already said before, even the worst case scenario should have been bankruptcy protection for MALEV, re-organizing a "new" MALEV, bankrupt the old MALEV, and immediately restart operations (maybe within days and not months!) with a new MALEV. Unfortunately they managed to figure out an even worse case scenario

One would think if there was the core of a profitable business there, someone would be waiting to take over the profitable part after a quick dive through bankruptcy.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7236 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 69):
So it wasnt making money then if the €350 million was illegal aid that other carriers didnt receive.

Not really fair, what you guys are playing here...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 64):
Not hard for me at least to reach the conclusion that MA wasn't charging what it takes to run a full-service airline.
Quoting ju068 (Reply 65):
Based on what?
Quoting Revelation (Reply 66):
Well, that, and the bankruptcy...

Revelation was suggesting, that MA under-priced their service...
Ju068 asked what is the basis of his suggestion
Revelation in part based that on the fact that they went under
ju068 (rightfully) pointed towards the fact that MA managed to close the year end with operational profit, and that it was brought down by (in part) the EU ruling to pay back the "illegal" aid given to them between 2007-2010 (which was a whole different and very sad era in the life of the company) and had nothing to do with their restructured operations in 2011 ( let me also note that MA was also in trouble due to certain loans and other "bank traps", but probably those could have been overcome... it was the EU ruling that made their future a nightmare, and most importantly that they even should have had to pay interest-rates on that "illegal" aid too.

Anyway, back to what Revelation said and ju068 claimed:

MA alone if it could have gotten rid of that debt burden, just taking operations into account, would have been a very smart CEE carrier.

Here are some plans that where either already nearly finalized or on top of the "to-do" list:
They already managed the renegotiation of lease rates and draw up a plan to change the fleet to newer (like wingletted -800s and -700). I know there was a done deal on the time-frame to return the uneconomical -600s, and I know they where (well at least 3 I saw the papers of) where already destined for the scrappers. (on the contrary to some beliefs here, the SSJ was not on the table at all anymore), 4 new Q400s would have also entered the fleet (however I have not seen any definite date for that)

...so please everyone, instead of trying to prove what a shity airline MA was see behind the front-lines. I think the bankruptcy of the "old" MA was unavoidable with its rolling debt burden, and especially forthcoming after the EU decision... what is really shocking here for everyone is that the management, the crew, and the whole little MA team has proved that they can be viable and they are so important factor in the Hungarian economy, and everyone (including myself) expected that they will keep the "old" MA alive until new plans are being drawn up, and then they pull a re-birth trick ala OA, AZ, LX...or something along those lines. This is the huge opportunity they missed, and with every day going by the damage is greater and greater, and any chance of a re-birth is less and less unlikely.



Peet7G
User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 7224 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 70):
One would think if there was the core of a profitable business there, someone would be waiting to take over the profitable part after a quick dive through bankruptcy.

There where many coming and going and interested in buying MA. The Hainan Group was the most serious taker. I know of IAG looking very close at them, an the list goes on to a banker group, Unimex Group (I think they own Travel Service Airlines and Smartwings) but in each and every case they where scared away by the huge debt burden coming with Malev... as well as in some cases where vetoed by the 5% owner the VEB Russian Bank who due to some reasons retained a veto power within MA management after the government acquired back the 95% ownership in 2010. They vetoed some decisions because they feared that they will not get their money back  



Peet7G
User currently offlineJL418 From Italy, joined Jun 2009, 493 posts, RR: 6
Reply 73, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 7003 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 49):
The biggest problem is (according to another article, and I totally agree) that the government has made no plans (and even now they are sitting still and waiting for miracle to happen) to start up a new MALEV out of scratch. While their biggest enemy is time, because the market reacts quickly, and by the time they might be ready for a relaunch, their market-share will be gone in a flash  

...as I already said before, even the worst case scenario should have been bankruptcy protection for MALEV, re-organizing a "new" MALEV, bankrupt the old MALEV, and immediately restart operations (maybe within days and not months!) with a new MALEV. Unfortunately they managed to figure out an even worse case scenario

Thanks PEET7G. The government's idleness is incredible, I'd expected Orban to act way quickier or, however, to do something at all. Instead, according to your post, they're basically sitting and contemplating the facts, aren't they?

It angers me to see how Malév has been ruined by years of political mismanagement and now politics is kissing it goodbye.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 74, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 6855 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 72):
but in each and every case they where scared away by the huge debt burden coming with Malev...

Yes, that's why the quick trip through bankruptcy you described above would be needed.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 72):
as well as in some cases where vetoed by the 5% owner the VEB Russian Bank who due to some reasons retained a veto power within MA management after the government acquired back the 95% ownership in 2010.

Under US laws, the existing shareholders get wiped out. If VEB was also a creditor, they would have votes on the creditor's committee during bankruptcy, but not veto power, and the judge has ultimate authority. The judge could decide that a minority shareholder having veto power is not in the interests of the re-born company.

Is it different in Hungary?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2684 posts, RR: 11
Reply 75, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 6749 times:

Now that HU is left with no codeshare partner in BUD, what will happen to its flight PEK-BUD?

Will it share the same faith as AA's JFK-BUD, which i hear will not return.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 76, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6584 times:

Sadly, this photo right here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/75911361@N03/6818062579/in/photostream/

reminds me of this:



User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 6651 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 42):
There is so much to say, and so much to argue with some of you, especially those with the air of patronage claiming why and how this is right and this is the way it had to happen and becoming an LCC heaven is the best future BUD could get...

Agreed, although BUD becoming a LCC hub is looking more likely, this sort of move towards basic service will hurt Hungary's business community. I for one will never fly Wizz or FR to BUD.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 71):
Here are some plans that where either already nearly finalized or on top of the "to-do" list:
They already managed the renegotiation of lease rates and draw up a plan to change the fleet to newer (like wingletted -800s and -700). I know there was a done deal on the time-frame to return the uneconomical -600s, and I know they where (well at least 3 I saw the papers of) where already destined for the scrappers. (on the contrary to some beliefs here, the SSJ was not on the table at all anymore), 4 new Q400s would have also entered the fleet (however I have not seen any definite date for that)

So sad to hear that MA had a plan to streamline the fleet and move towards the future. Not going through with the SSJ would have been very positive too as it was a political order for sure. I guess Sukhoi's SSJ base in BUD is off now too.

The more I read about MA's collapse, the more I'm starting to think the Hungarian Govt and Orban wanted the national carrier to go down in flames due to political reasons with a touch of retribution for good measure.
PEET7G, I appreciate all the info and insight you have provided in this thread.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 75):
Now that HU is left with no codeshare partner in BUD, what will happen to its flight PEK-BUD?

Will it share the same faith as AA's JFK-BUD, which i hear will not return.

Thenoflyzone

Possibly, although I think most of the pax on the HU flights to BUD were Chinese vacationers, much like JL's summer charters to BUD.

Quoting rj777 (Reply 76):
Sadly, this photo right here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/75911361@N03/6818062579/in/photostream/

reminds me of this:

Sad, sad, sad.... there is a post by a MA pilot who was involved in the "black procession" of MA's birds to SNN on airportal.hu but it is only in Hungarian.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineakiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 6225 times:

Saw it on FlyerTalk and I confirmed it through the website: Duna Club has been terminated!   

User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

There was a relatively large rally held in Budapest in support of creating a "new Malev". The CEO of MA said that the company is still looking for investors to help restart the national carrier. However court hearings into to liquidation of MA and it's assets are due to begin this week.

One of the pilots featured in this news clip says in Hungarian "I started on the Il-18, flew the TU-134, TU-154 and the Boeings, and now its all come to an end".

FR is continuing its push to take over as many MA routes as possible. The Hungarian government is appreantly helping FR both by pressuring BUD and by giving financial help in order to start up ops in Budapest, quite ironic in my opinion.

http://www.hirado.hu/Hirek/2012/02/1...k__fotokon_a_Malevert_tartott.aspx

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3029 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 77):
Agreed, although BUD becoming a LCC hub is looking more likely, this sort of move towards basic service will hurt Hungary's business community. I for one will never fly Wizz or FR to BUD.

Very true. As for base opportunities, the LCC's will take that role, ut the Legacy carriers will find their position feeding their main hubs.

I agree that LCC's do nothing for me in my travels and I avoid them (same as JQ and TT here in Australia).

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 79):
There was a relatively large rally held in Budapest in support of creating a "new Malev". The CEO of MA said that the company is still looking for investors to help restart the national carrier. However court hearings into to liquidation of MA and it's assets are due to begin this week.

This all sounds like the AN situation in Australia back in 2001-02.

At times like these theres planned rallies and sadness/anger, but it ends in lots of talk and a protracted wind up. With the EU state aid and copetition rules, it ust akes things harder to get things off the ground again.

As has been said before, other carriers move into the market and fill the void quickly, squeezing out the opportunity for the airline to re-start. Its hard work to get things back into motion, which is costly and a risky proposition for an investor to undertake (which is the the TESNA bid failed to take off in its bid to get AN to restart ops as it needed lots of different pieces to come together to work).


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5494 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 71):
it was the EU ruling that made their future a nightmare, and most importantly that they even should have had to pay interest-rates on that "illegal" aid too.

The fact that MA was supported illegally in the 2007-2010 era which ended the life of MA. MA would have been long gone if the illegal aid in the years before wasn't given (I recall that even AF/KL looked at investing in MA). If MA is/was really a good investment, than the EUR350mio wouldn't be an issue (it's not that it was a surprise verdict). However, it seems though profitable in 2011, there still wasn't anyone ready to commit to investing in MA. Otherwise we would have had a Sabena/Swissair situation.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 70):

One would think if there was the core of a profitable business there, someone would be waiting to take over the profitable part after a quick dive through bankruptcy

Which explains why nobody actually thinks MA is viable. When both SN and LX went bust, the initial plans came out within a week. If haven't heard anything regarding such a start up this time. Moreover vultures were circling these airlines for the profitable parts of these companies.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 71):

MA alone if it could have gotten rid of that debt burden, just taking operations into account, would have been a very smart CEE carrier.

As Sabena and Swissair have shown, there are ways to go around this (go bankrupt and start all over again, preferably within a week). However, as you correctly pointed out, there was no back-up plan though the EU ruling was to be expected.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 63):
Also Smartwings will start Amsterdam - Budapest soon

April 28th to be precise

Quoting kl911 (Reply 63):
Nothing to complain about, both times landed early

Hmmm I've been hearing different things about Smartwings


User currently offlinePEET7G From Hungary, joined Jan 2007, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5461 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 74):
Is it different in Hungary?

Not really, if the outcome is the total parting out of the assets of the company. Actually one of the scenarios in my head was that they filed for bankruptcy to get rid of the VEB Bank. Unfortunately as time passes by and we see how puzzled our government is, only realizing the impact MA's halt has on the economy...I can see that this was not an organized attempt to save the company  
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 79):
There was a relatively large rally held in Budapest in support of creating a "new Malev". The CEO of MA said that the company is still looking for investors to help restart the national carrier. However court hearings into to liquidation of MA and it's assets are due to begin this week.

I was there, well it was more like a farewell rally, a tribute to the company and its employees, with lots of moving speeches and even more tears. I was very touched about how many people showed up with candles and torches. They talk of many hundreds, in reality it was in the thousands of people. Police had to close down the whole roads and bridges as the crowd moved. The flying display by the Malev Aero Club was a very touching finish to the rally.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 79):
FR is continuing its push to take over as many MA routes as possible. The Hungarian government is appreantly helping FR both by pressuring BUD and by giving financial help in order to start up ops in Budapest, quite ironic in my opinion.

I really have no idea what O'leary is up to, why is it good for him to piss of a nation who's airport he wants to move in and collect the anger of the people who's business he is seeking for... There is an overall anger against FR now here, with huge amounts of people swearing never to board an FR plane ever. The reason is his arrogance, spitting and lying in the media. Here is what happened so far:

Within hours after grounding Malev he was in Budapest talking about opening up 31 routes and taking over MA employees, and on the same day hew started selling tickets on those routes.
In reality:
MA pilots said the jobs they where offered are more like offensive than real jobs.
He had no rights to sell any tickets on those routes, because he did not manage to make a deal on slots, landing fees, in fact nothing...he just paraded around a little and lied about them striking a deal with the airport and the authorities.

It took FR a week to finally make some deal with the airport and the authorities, then he stated that it will be more routes and more planes in the deal, and pledged a price war against W6. He then said that FR flights will even fly out of T2 and that FR has received a superb deal from the airport as well as funds and subsidies from the Hungarian Government for starting up those routes. Of course there was an immediate anger here, and very quickly the airport came out and stated, that BUD's deal with FR is according to the total list price and that it is a lie that FR will start out of T2. If they want to fly out of T2, then they pay the fees of T2...period.
A few hours later several statements came out from the authorities that Leary lied too about them, because they are not giving a single cent to support FR.

This guy is a master of circus making. However it really looks like he overstepped a certain line with many here.


...and something pretty heartbreaking: MA employees sent out the last ever advertisement of the company. It was in newspapers on Friday and it was payed for by the employees them selves:

The text is something like this:

"We would like to thank every Malev passenger, who in the past 66 years chose us, the national carrier for their travels.

With lots of Love,

The Employees of MALÉV"

You can find a picture of the advertisement HERE

Very touching gesture, I think.   



Peet7G
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 83, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5366 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I still think the Hungarian government gave up too fast. Let's not forget that subsidies are possible for some routes under special circumstances.
European Union allows subsidies for sectors such as tourism or expanding into new markets. This means that the €350 million was the total Malev had received over the past couple of years.
However a lot of the cash was used to open up and promote routes which were unserved from Budapest until Malev launched them. Best example is their route Budapest-Belgrade, they launched it in December 2009 with 7 weekly flights. As a promotional campaign they had a special offer €1 flights anywhere in Europe via Budapest. Such a service was eligible to receive state funding. This means that from Belgrade alone they could have had several millions off in the 4-5 months of promotional operations. Though the route was originally planned to be operated by a Dash-8 during that period it was mostly operated by B737-800!
Belgrade is just one out of 27 routes where Malev had a monopoly.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5149 times:

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 82):
Within hours after grounding Malev he was in Budapest talking about opening up 31 routes and taking over MA employees, and on the same day hew started selling tickets on those routes.
In reality:
MA pilots said the jobs they where offered are more like offensive than real jobs.
He had no rights to sell any tickets on those routes, because he did not manage to make a deal on slots, landing fees, in fact nothing...he just paraded around a little and lied about them striking a deal with the airport and the authorities.

It took FR a week to finally make some deal with the airport and the authorities, then he stated that it will be more routes and more planes in the deal, and pledged a price war against W6. He then said that FR flights will even fly out of T2 and that FR has received a superb deal from the airport as well as funds and subsidies from the Hungarian Government for starting up those routes. Of course there was an immediate anger here, and very quickly the airport came out and stated, that BUD's deal with FR is according to the total list price and that it is a lie that FR will start out of T2. If they want to fly out of T2, then they pay the fees of T2...period.
A few hours later several statements came out from the authorities that Leary lied too about them, because they are not giving a single cent to support FR.

This guy is a master of circus making. However it really looks like he overstepped a certain line with many here.

That really gets my blood boiling..... To watch the disastrous demise of our national carrier is one thing, but to watch O’leary dance on the grave of MA is another matter, especially when he is making claims he has no right to. I know, I know… its business and he has every right to start up ops at BUD and strengthen his company but I really dislike his grandstanding. I’m still convinced FR and the Orban regime had this worked out before the grounding of MA.

I saw the press conference on hirado, and when he was asked about the government compensation to FR, his reply was “yes, we got some but it wasn’t enough!”

O’leary was also trying to make compare W6 and MA, suggesting W6 is destined for the same faith.

But if they use T2, will they use the jet bridges or just park on the apron?

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 82):
...and something pretty heartbreaking: MA employees sent out the last ever advertisement of the company. It was in newspapers on Friday and it was payed for by the employees them selves:

Very touching!! The fact that MA staff would use money from their last pay to fund a goodbye ad just speaks to the dedication and commitment of Malev’s former staff.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 85, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 81):
When both SN and LX went bust, the initial plans came out within a week. If haven't heard anything regarding such a start up this time. Moreover vultures were circling these airlines for the profitable parts of these companies.

But a lot of time has passed since SN and LX ended up in the LH group, and since that time, a lot of consolidation has happened in Europe (LH group, IAG group, AF-KL group, etc). Is it fair to compare the situation to today? Even if MA is in the same position as were LX and SN, it may be that there just isn't the same opportunities now as there were then.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 82):
Not really, if the outcome is the total parting out of the assets of the company. Actually one of the scenarios in my head was that they filed for bankruptcy to get rid of the VEB Bank. Unfortunately as time passes by and we see how puzzled our government is, only realizing the impact MA's halt has on the economy...I can see that this was not an organized attempt to save the company

It is shocking that no such plan was at least partially in place.

Thanks for your posts during this difficult and frustrating time.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 83):
I still think the Hungarian government gave up too fast.

Do we know to what degree MA attempted to get government assistance?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 86, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 84):
I saw the press conference on hirado, and when he was asked about the government compensation to FR, his reply was “yes, we got some but it wasn’t enough!”

And then you hear him trolling in newspaper interviews about subsidies being the "worst thing ever". I guess that must be subsidies to airlines other than the blue-yellow cancer.

Quoting PEET7G (Reply 82):
We would like to thank every Malev passenger, who in the past 66 years chose us, the national carrier for their travels.

I flew with them in October BUD-MXP... who would've thought it was to be for the last time ever.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4879 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 85):

But a lot of time has passed since SN and LX ended up in the LH group, and since that time, a lot of consolidation has happened in Europe (LH group, IAG group, AF-KL group, etc). Is it fair to compare the situation to today? Even if MA is in the same position as were LX and SN, it may be that there just isn't the same opportunities now as there were then.

Yes the situation is the same. Sabena (2002), Swissair (2001) and Alitalia (2008) could restart because they knew they had the backing of a few multinationals willing to invest in the airline (If I'm not mistaken especially in Swissair's case the Swiss corporate world supported the restart of Swissair). Moreover they had entities which which could take over as soon as the parent went bankrupt (Sabena had DAT, Swissair used Crossair and Alitalia used the Air One AOC). No such provision was taken for MA even though it was clear that MA couldn't survive. Moreover will the Hungarian corporate world invest in MA? They may miss MA, but it's pretty quiet.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4816 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 79):
The Hungarian government is appreantly helping FR both by pressuring BUD and by giving financial help in order to start up ops in Budapest, quite ironic in my opinion.

Since 2009, BUD has been using an incentive scheme to promote the launch of new route.

Quote:
If an airline decides to add a new short haul destination to the list of cities accessible from Budapest Airport, it does not have to pay landing fees at all for one year, and receives a seventy-five percent discount in the second and 50 percent discount in the third year. (source: http://www.therouteshop.com/budapest...gTab)



So for new FR routes to LBC, FMM and RYG, they will get financial help by a discount on the landing fees. They would have gotten this support before MA's collapse and they still get it now. Each carrier launching new routes are entitled to these discounts.

Additionally, there is a 'route recovery' discount, for carriers who decide to launch discontinued routes during the same season when they were stopped. (75% discount in the first year). Carriers like LH (TXL, HAM) and A3 (ATH) are entitled to these discounts and have most certainly applied for them.

It would be strange if FR would not be eligible for this openly published discounts.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 83):
I still think the Hungarian government gave up too fast. Let's not forget that subsidies are possible for some routes under special circumstances.
European Union allows subsidies for sectors such as tourism or expanding into new markets. This means that the €350 million was the total Malev had received over the past couple of years.
However a lot of the cash was used to open up and promote routes which were unserved from Budapest until Malev launched them.

Incorrect. The EU specified which money was deemed illegal.

Quote:
- The takeover in December 2007 of a €76 million loan granted to Malév in 2003;
- A de facto cash facility in the context of the abortive sale of Malév's Ground Handling subsidiary amounting to HUF 4.3 billion;
- A tax and social debt deferral in the amount of HUF 13.8 billion;
- Two capital increases of HUF 25.4 billion in February 2010 and HUF 5.7 billion in September 2010;
- Shareholder loans granted between May to September 2010 totalling HUF 14.9 billion;
- The conversion of part of these shareholder loans (along with the interest owed thereon) into shares of Malév in September 2010;
Source: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...=HTML

There is no mention of illegal support for opening new routes, which indeed is, under certain circumstances, allowed. It means that it's very much possible that during the last year, the Hungarian government paid even more to Malev than the amounts specified above.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 77):
Agreed, although BUD becoming a LCC hub is looking more likely, this sort of move towards basic service will hurt Hungary's business community.

How bad are GVA or MAN for business travelers?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 85):
Even if MA is in the same position as were LX and SN, it may be that there just isn't the same opportunities now as there were then.

A main difference is the market potential from ZRH and BRU, compared to BUD. ZRH is one of the world highest yielding markets, and also the Belgian economy (in terms of disposable income) is about three times as big as Hungary's economy. The amount of long-haul flights from other carriers to BRU and ZRH demonstrate a difference in market demand. The Italian market, for Alitalia, is also considerably bigger than the aviation market from Hungary.

Also, there is one similarity between SN, LX and AZ: all three carriers have struggled very hard after started operations, and all have lost millions. It took LX 4 years to become profitable and they've had a very hard time around 2003-2004, when they sold their LHR slots for cash. SN has struggled to post profits ever since they were launched, and AZ still didn't make a full-year profit.

It's a bad forecast for private investors who are looking for investments...


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 89, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4594 times:
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Quoting joost (Reply 88):
Incorrect. The EU specified which money was deemed illegal.

The EU specified that all subsidies given to Malev from 2007 to 2010 were illegal ''...flag carrier Malév between 2007 and 2010 in the context of its privatisation and renationalisation constitutes illegal state aid...''.

What I am saying is that the Hungarian government could have advocated that part of these subsidies were in line with the Lisbon Treaty, that is the subsidies related to promotion of Hungarian tourism through Malev but also related to the 27 routes on which Malev held a monopoly, or in other words acted as the only link between those cities.

I would like to remind you that the Lisbon Treaty allows for subsidies in the following fields: Industry, Culture, Protection and Improvement of Human Health, Tourism and Education, Youth and Sport. Naturally all apply under special conditions.

Malev had always offered package tours via their offices/websites throughout their network. Some of these flights were not profitable at first, as is the case with their Belgrade flights. This means that because it is a new, unserved route, whose purpose was to promote Hungarian tourism (among other things) it was entitled to some subsidies.

Even in their press release the EU states only the following:

The takeover in December 2007 of a €76 million loan granted to Malév in 2003;

A de facto cash facility in the context of the abortive sale of Malév's Ground Handling subsidiary amounting to HUF 4.3 billion;

A tax and social debt deferral in the amount of HUF 13.8 billion;

Two capital increases of HUF 25.4 billion in February 2010 and HUF 5.7 billion in September 2010;

Shareholder loans granted between May to September 2010 totalling HUF 14.9 billion;

The conversion of part of these shareholder loans (along with the interest owed thereon) into shares of Malév in September 2010;


But the EU doesn't state what the money was used for, and if part of those funds were used in line with what was written in the Lisbon Treaty. No, they just stepped forward calling all the subsidies illegal, when it might not be the case. Especially not in the case of an airline like Malev which was constantly opening up new markets and reinforcing the old ones.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 90, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 89):
What I am saying is that the Hungarian government could have advocated that part of these subsidies were in line with the Lisbon Treaty, that is the subsidies related to promotion of Hungarian tourism through Malev but also related to the 27 routes on which Malev held a monopoly, or in other words acted as the only link between those cities.

I see what you're saying. But in this case, the Hungarian government must be able to demonstrate that these subsidies were available to any carrier willing to do the same; that the subsidies were not just given 'because they were Malev'.

Additionally, if MA already received indirect state aid through the airport subsidies, they might have very well 'consumed' all available state aid.

IMO, such a procedure would only buy some time. The only winners would be lawyers.

Keep in mind, government money isn't 'free' money either. Tax payer's money poured into an ailing carrier could also be spent on education, health care, pensions, etc.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 89):
But the EU doesn't state what the money was used for, and if part of those funds were used in line with what was written in the Lisbon Treaty. No, they just stepped forward calling all the subsidies illegal, when it might not be the case. Especially not in the case of an airline like Malev which was constantly opening up new markets and reinforcing the old ones.

Let's wait for the final, detailed report.

Quote:
The non-confidential version of the decision will be made available under the case number C38/2010 in the State Aid Register on the DG Competition website once any confidentiality issues have been resolved.

More sad news: Hainan just announced cancellation of Budapest services from end March.


User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 91, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4447 times:

Why shouldn't a state help its carrier? The EU is responsible for Malev's demise.

User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2684 posts, RR: 11
Reply 92, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4385 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 90):
More sad news: Hainan just announced cancellation of Budapest services from end March.

Was to be expected, alongside AA's cancelation.

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 93, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 90):
More sad news: Hainan just announced cancellation of Budapest services from end March.

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse!

Quoting joost (Reply 88):
How bad are GVA or MAN for business travelers?
Quoting joost (Reply 88):
So for new FR routes to LBC, FMM and RYG, they will get financial help by a discount on the landing fees. They would have gotten this support before MA's collapse and they still get it now. Each carrier launching new routes are entitled to these discounts.

Additionally, there is a 'route recovery' discount, for carriers who decide to launch discontinued routes during the same season when they were stopped. (75% discount in the first year). Carriers like LH (TXL, HAM) and A3 (ATH) are entitled to these discounts and have most certainly applied for them.

It would be strange if FR would not be eligible for this openly published discounts.

I'm not disagreeing but perception is reality, and the perception in Hungary is that the government is helping FR claim the MA route structure while it somewhat sat on its hands during the final period of operations.

Business travelers from Western Europe have LH, BA and KL/AF, but there are routes from BUD that will be exclusively served by LCC's thereby alienating the business travel. I doubt any CEO or CFO will be jumping on FR, I could be wrong tho..

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 86):
And then you hear him trolling in newspaper interviews about subsidies being the "worst thing ever". I guess that must be subsidies to airlines other than the blue-yellow cancer.

  

MA's employees and the general flying public is not giving up on MA, just yet...

http://malevmegmentese.info/declaration.html


KrisYYZ


User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1886 posts, RR: 2
Reply 94, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Ok, that website seems to be a contradiction. At the beginning it says they want to: " take action that is meant to result in Malev Airline’s revival." but further down, it says the want to create: "a new national airline whose name will be later determined by that community." It doesn't sound like they want to SAVE Malev, sounds more like they want to REPLACE it!

User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5300 posts, RR: 15
Reply 95, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 93):
Business travelers from Western Europe have LH, BA and KL/AF, but there are routes from BUD that will be exclusively served by LCC's thereby alienating the business travel

You are not serious right? I have clients from a large Dutch oil company who often use FR ,U2 and W6 when they are the only point to point carrier. And why not? A seat is a seat, especially for Business travellers LCC should be good since they hardly need any luggage, and the company pays the priority checkin and legroom seats. ( like my company does for me btw. )

So please stop the bs about lcc alienating business travel. Quit often the yactually prefer LCC's , like business travellers living around EIN, they dont have to travel to AMS in rushhour, but can quietly checkin at EIN for the W6 and FR flights to BUD for example.

people tend to forget that often managers etc work in a city, but often live somewhere in the countryside where a local airport with LCC flights might be much more easier then indeed traveling to alarge city airport in rush hour.


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 96, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

What is going on with Budapest Aircraft Service and their Brasilias? Can they resume some flight, at least to neighboring countries such as Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Romania?


R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 95):
You are not serious right? I have clients from a large Dutch oil company who often use FR ,U2 and W6 when they are the only point to point carrier. And why not? A seat is a seat, especially for Business travellers LCC should be good since they hardly need any luggage, and the company pays the priority checkin and legroom seats. ( like my company does for me btw. )

So please stop the bs about lcc alienating business travel. Quit often the yactually prefer LCC's , like business travellers living around EIN, they dont have to travel to AMS in rushhour, but can quietly checkin at EIN for the W6 and FR flights to BUD for example.

people tend to forget that often managers etc work in a city, but often live somewhere in the countryside where a local airport with LCC flights might be much more easier then indeed traveling to alarge city airport in rush hour.



Some will and some won't. I can't conclusively say that all business "elites" will stop flying to BUD because there is no premium service but you can't say that every business traveller will hop on FR with a big smile either. MA being grounded will hurt Hungary and Budapest.
KrisYYZ

[Edited 2012-02-13 14:01:37]

User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 96):
What is going on with Budapest Aircraft Service and their Brasilias? Can they resume some flight, at least to neighboring countries such as Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Romania?

Technically, yes, they have their own AOC, but they don't need to. They did some flying for MA, but that's about it. It's not their business, most of the time they do charters, ad-hoc, VIP, etc.


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 32
Reply 99, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 98):
Technically, yes, they have their own AOC, but they don't need to. They did some flying for MA, but that's about it. It's not their business, most of the time they do charters, ad-hoc, VIP, etc.

Well...I thought if they could be the starting base for a new airline...something like Crossair when Swissair went out of business



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 100, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3846 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
Why shouldn't a state help its carrier?

Because it creates unfair competition. It's not fair to other carriers, if one carrier (for example Malev) can use tax payers money to start services, whereas other carriers need to compete without this support.

Imagine this: W6 pays taxes in Hungary. These taxes could go to MA, and so W6 would (indirectly) pay MA for competing against them.

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
The EU is responsible for Malev's demise.



These rules were already there when Hungary decided to join the EU. Also, with open skies within Europe, it's necessary to have a level playing field.

To quote the former dutch minister of Finance (after not saving a bank in financial difficulties): "One doesn't drown because he isn't saved. One drowns because he can't swim".

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):
Some will and some won't. I can't conclusively say that all business "elites" will stop flying to BUD because there is no premium service but you can't say that every business traveller will hop on FR with a big smile either.

The choice of doing business in a certain country should not depend on the comfort level of the biggest carrier serving that market.

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):
MA being grounded will hurt Hungary and Budapest.

It is true that infrastructure and available flights, do play a role when looking for locations to start a business. MA's demise makes Budapest less accessible than before.

For business-related travel to the financial capitals of Europe, most cities have services. I do not believe it's the comfort level on board that prevents business travelers from using LCCs. Schedules, airports of choice and reliability of service are important. I referred to GVA before, which has a large easyJet base. EZY/EZS here offers high frequency-services to primary airports (2x daily to AMS, MAD, for example), and all European network carriers offer connections beyond their hubs.

Also, many routes have already been filled in the last 2 weeks. When it comes to the 'business' airports and network carriers:

- LH started HAM and TXL
- A3 to start ATH
- AZ is to start FCO (next to existing W6)

Now, some MA monopoly routes have seen the introduction of LCCs, or only have LCC service now:
- SKG to start by FR
- MAD has W6 and will receive FR
- SOF to start by W6

Most other MA monopoly services where VFR or vacation-orriented (VAR, HER, AGP, etc).

The problem is mostly when it comes to Eastern European and Balkan-routes that are left without service: LED, BEG, SSJ, TIA, ZAG. It might be harder to fill the routes. Indeed, a hub can make it possible to offer non-stop service to some airports, by using connecting passengers, that aren't viable on a pure O&D-basis.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 101, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.

User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 102, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 101):
It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.

Yes, I know that 2 have left already for the US this morning. HA-LOJ left SNN at about 8:20am local time and HA-LOF around 9am.



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 100):

The problem is mostly when it comes to Eastern European and Balkan-routes that are left without service: LED, BEG, SSJ, TIA, ZAG. It might be harder to fill the routes. Indeed, a hub can make it possible to offer non-stop service to some airports, by using connecting passengers, that aren't viable on a pure O&D-basis.

For sure, and if MA does restart in some shape or form, those routes will be its backbone routes as the other markets will be swallowed up by LCCs.

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 101):
It's been reported over on the Irish thread that all the Malev 736's stored in SNN, are going to depart SNN today to GYR for scrapping.

as was stated by Peet7G, MA's plans were to return the B736s and possibly replace the other 737s with newer models from ILFC. So sending these aircraft for scrapping still doesn't necessary mean much. However if ILFC starts sending the B73Gs and B738s to other carriers or the desert then MA would have to acquire new aircraft to start ops again.

KrisYYZ


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 104, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3611 times:

Quoting krisyyz (Reply 97):

Some will and some won't. I can't conclusively say that all business "elites" will stop flying to BUD because there is no premium service but you can't say that every business traveller will hop on FR with a big smile either. MA being grounded will hurt Hungary and Budapest.

Those "elites" can always charter a private jet if they don't want to be seen in a FR or W6 plane...


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 105, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!  



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 106, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3431 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 100):
It's not fair to other carriers, if one carrier (for example Malev) can use tax payers money to start services, whereas other carriers need to compete without this support.

Sort of like when public money are used to subsidize FR's flights to middle-of-nowhere airports?


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3186 posts, RR: 4
Reply 107, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 106):
Sort of like when public money are used to subsidize FR's flights to middle-of-nowhere airports?

There is an important differences:

1) Subsidies that are available for a specific service, available for any carrier willing to offer this service
2) Subsidies that are given to a specific carrier, which are not available for other carriers.

Subsidies under (1) are, under certain conditions, allowed. For example, 'new route' subsidies can only last for 5 years. These are published by airport operators, and available for (and used by!) virtually all European carriers. There are also maximum amounts for subsidies.

For specific route-subsidies, under the PSO-scheme, there is a requirement for tenders.

Subsidies or aid to specific carriers (2) are not allowed, with an exception for (strictly controlled) emergency aid. Basically, the rule here is that governments are allowed to give emergency aid to carriers, but only if the conditions would also be attractive for private parties. Also, it must be demonstrated to be temporary and a recovery plan must exist.

Now, these rules of course can be interpreted in different ways, and both airlines as well as governments are sometimes 'creative' in working around. The European Commission is, however, quite active in researching illegal state aid.

Mind you that the rules for route launch subsidies and airport-provided subsidies, where actually set following the research to Ryanair at CRL. Ryanair was ordered to pay back illegal state aid to the Walloon government. At the time, there were no guidelines for legal / illegal state aid and the rules were defined in the course and aftermath of these research and court cases.

Right now, the EC is performing in-depth research to illegal state aid provided by many airports, which also affect FR:

25 Jan 2012: NRN, AOC, PUF, VST: http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=nl

24 May 2011: Research for illegal subsidies for W6 at TSR; subsidies provided by CWL and VCE considered 'legal': http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=fr

When governments are providing rescue money, this is always closely watched by the EC, as by Air Malta (research started): http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

When it comes to aviation, I agree with the free market and fair competition principles as defined in the context of the European Union. Government life-support should not exist here.

I also think that local governments should have the power to make their region attractive for business or tourism, and providing subsidies for aviation (as part of infrastructure) is part of that.

In some occasions, local governments seem to be very willing to spend (much) tax payers money on their airport. Whether it is prestige, pride, over-optimistic expectations, political reasons or whatever, sometimes the money put in airports and airlines seems rather much.

However, in these cases I'd blame the (democratically elected!) governments who decide to provide the subsidies and transfer it into the accounts of airlines, rather than the airlines who are accepting these subsidies. In the end, the decision to provide subsidies is made by governments and airport operators, not the airlines.


User currently offlinetopgun3 From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 105):

In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!  

Had HA-LOF and HA-LOJ fly over my area on Feb. 14 (CYXU). Anyone know what was the final destination?



I'd rather be flying.
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 109, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Think that you will find that it is Goodyear, to be parted out.

User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 110, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 91):
Why shouldn't a state help its carrier? The EU is responsible for Malev's demise.

Because in the Single Market, certain state subsidies can distort the market. If MA got illegal subsidies, that gives them an edge over LH, OK, OS, etc. Thus, that distorts the operation of the single market which defeats the whole point.

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 96):
Can they resume some flight, at least to neighboring countries such as Croatia, Serbia, Austria, Romania?

I doubt BUD-VIE would be a good idea. The Austrian Federal Railway (ÖBB) operate a frequent high-speed service between Vienna and Budapest with good onward connections to the airport, Graz, Salzburg, Klagenfurt, etc.


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 111, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

Quoting topgun3 (Reply 108):
Had HA-LOF and HA-LOJ fly over my area on Feb. 14 (CYXU). Anyone know what was the final destination?
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 109):
Think that you will find that it is Goodyear, to be parted out.

Yup they were flown to Goodyear, Arizona via Bangor.



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 111):
Yup they were flown to Goodyear, Arizona via Bangor.

A real pity about the way they have to go now!!! But I wonder about the cost of them all flying from BUD to SNN and now further to GYR who will pay for this???


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Quoting B738FlyUIA (Reply 112):
A real pity about the way they have to go now!!! But I wonder about the cost of them all flying from BUD to SNN and now further to GYR who will pay for this???

Yes it is a shame, the aircraft are only 9 years old! The aircraft were only flown by Malev but owned by a US leasing company, so I guess the lessor pays for the flights.



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2775 posts, RR: 6
Reply 114, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 2994 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Budapest airport announced that it will have to fire about 250 employees and will postpone all the planned projects for 2012.

User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 115, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2938 times:

I understand that they had a single CRJ200ER, (HA-LNA).

What I do not understand is why just 1 aircraft.

Also it is not clear what has happened to it.


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 116, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2936 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 115):
I understand that they had a single CRJ200ER, (HA-LNA).

What I do not understand is why just 1 aircraft.

Also it is not clear what has happened to it.

It seems as they had another three CRJ-200's: HA-LNB, HA-LNC, HA-LND. They went to other airlines, and it says that HA-LNA is stored.

Also they had a CRJ-100 also (HA-LNX).



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlineakiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 790 posts, RR: 0
Reply 117, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

I saw this while browsing through Facebook. I wonder how many people turned out to march for Malév in BUD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tni48AlwHBU


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7809 posts, RR: 3
Reply 118, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-crj-7032.htm

According to airfleets, the CRJ100 was operated briefly in 2002.


User currently offlinekrisyyz From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 119, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2725 times:

Quoting akiestar (Reply 117):
I saw this while browsing through Facebook. I wonder how many people turned out to march for Malév in BUD.

There are conflicting reports as is usual. Some media sources said "hundreds" while other said "thousands" were in attendance.

Quoting LGWflyer (Reply 116):
and it says that HA-LNA is stored.

I wonder what will happen to LNA and LHB, perhaps the B762 could meet the same faith as the B736s or perhaps it could be converted for cargo ops. I personally would love to see both at the Airpark museum at BUD, however that probably won't happen.




KrisYYZ


User currently offlinefpetrutiu From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 901 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting topgun3 (Reply 108):
In total six aircraft departed from SNN today bound for the US, they were:

HA-LOD
HA-LOE
HA-LOF
HA-LOG
HA-LOJ
HA-LON

I guess more will be leaving SNN tomorrow I assume... It's sad news!

Looks like they are scrapping the entire Malev 737-600 fleet. I doubt they had any interest for leasing deals, or purchase, for these birds. Sad day for sure, they had plenty of life left in them, but the balance of value tipped toward "Worth more in parts"...


User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 121, posted (2 years 10 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 120):
Looks like they are scrapping the entire Malev 737-600 fleet.

Yeah, they are worth more being parted out than being sold intact to another airline. Shame it has to end that way!  
Quoting krisyyz (Reply 119):
I wonder what will happen to LNA and LHB, perhaps the B762 could meet the same faith as the B736s or perhaps it could be converted for cargo ops. I personally would love to see both at the Airpark museum at BUD, however that probably won't happen.

Im sure LNA can be easily picked up by another airline. I do agree it would be nice to see LHB at the museum in BUD, but if it doesn't get scrapped I could see it going cargo like you say.

Amerijet and ABX use cargo 762's currently in their fleets, would be nice if LHB ended up there.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Stefan Hofmann
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Also isn't Fedex getting some 767's? Not sure if they are only picking up 300's though.



3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
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