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Western Airlines To Florida In The Late 1970s.  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

In about 1977 Western Airlines started LAX-MIA service to compete with National Airlines.
I heard Pan Am applied for the route and lost. Western did not last too long on this route.
They also added FLL and even an extension to Nassau Bahamas. Did Western ever add
TPA? By 1981 Western pulled out of Florida.

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6422 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4558 times:

Western never served TPA


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4530 times:

I seem to recall Western and National in talks about merging prior to Pan Am and National merging, and before Western and Continental talked about (and agreed to) merging. Roughly same time, perhaps a bit earlier than this brief Florida service. Anyone remember?

-Rampart


User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4177 times:

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
In about 1977 Western Airlines started LAX-MIA service to compete with National Airlines.

Actual startup date for Western on LAX-MIA was October 1, 1976. In mid-1979 Western was flying 2 daily round trips between LAX and MIA, both operated by DC-10s, except on Wednesdays, when one of the two frequencies was flown by a 720B (or 707-320C?). Also in mid-1979, one daily round trip included a MIA-FLL v.v. tag on.

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
I heard Pan Am applied for the route and lost.

Given the rigors of the regulated era and the CAB's view toward Pan Am being given domestic route authority, there was no chance Pan Am would have been allowed add LAX-MIA to their route map prior to deregulation and/or acquiring National (in 1979).

Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
They also added FLL and even an extension to Nassau Bahamas

Are you perhaps thinking of Northeast Airlines? ...who for a few years before being absorbed into Delta (October 1972) had MIA-LAX v.v. non-stop authority...NE was also serving Nassau at the time. The CAB did not allow NE's MIA-LAX authority to pass on to Delta.

A question which perhaps someone can answer: From Oct. 1972 to Oct. 1976, did National have MIA-LAX v.v. non-stop to themselves or was there a second airline on the route between Northeast and Western? (Continental comes to mind as a possibility... at least somewhat to my surprise, Eastern did not start MIA-LAX non-stop until some years after deregulation).


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
Are you perhaps thinking of Northeast Airlines? ...who for a few years before being absorbed into Delta (October 1972) had MIA-LAX v.v. non-stop authority...NE was also serving Nassau at the time. The CAB did not allow NE's MIA-LAX authority to pass on to Delta.

Link to October 1980 Western route system showing MIA-NAS tag on.

http://www.departedflights.com/WA090480.html

National, Northeast and Western were the only prederegulation airlines on the route prior to 1978

[Edited 2012-02-06 20:53:34]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25145 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
Quoting doulasc (Thread starter):
They also added FLL and even an extension to Nassau Bahamas

Are you perhaps thinking of Northeast Airlines?

No it was Western. In the November 15, 1979 OAG they had a DC-10 that operated FLL-MIA-LAX daily except Saturday.

In the April 1981 OAG that FLL tag-on DC-10 still operated and they also had a NAS tag-on to their other MIA-LAX flight but only 2 days a week, also DC-10.

Both the FLL and NAS tag-ons appear on this September 1980 route map. That was also during the brief (about 18 months) period when they operated HNL-ANC-LGW and DEN-LGW.
http://www.departedflights.com/WA090480.html


User currently offlineCALPSAFltSkeds From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 2617 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4083 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Both the FLL and NAS tag-ons appear on this September 1980 route map. That was also during the brief (about 18 months) period when they operated HNL-ANC-LGW and DEN-LGW.
http://www.departedflights.com/WA090....html

The HNL-ANC-LGW service as a disaster for loads with flight attendants (double crew) sometimes outnumbering passengers. the LAX-MIA service wasn't as bad, but FLL and NAS tags were added to bolster this route, which performed poorly.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3918 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
A question which perhaps someone can answer: From Oct. 1972 to Oct. 1976, did National have MIA-LAX v.v. non-stop to themselves or was there a second airline on the route between Northeast and Western? (Continental comes to mind as a possibility... at least somewhat to my surprise, Eastern did not start MIA-LAX non-stop until some years after deregulation).

The route was an NA monopoly in that timeframe. DL's mid 1970s route maps showed MIA-LAX with a dashed line, and a comment that the route was pending CAB approval until the award to WA was finalized.

Continental and Eastern applied for MIA-LAX multiple times, but neither airline was allowed to begin service on the route until after deregulation.

In 1969, the CAB awarded DAL-PHX and MIA-HOU to Delta. Continental protested both awards. In 1974, DL was allowed to keep Dallas-Phoenix, but was forced to relinquish Miami-Houston to Continental. I don't know if there were any restrictions on Continental's Miami-Houston authority regarding CO's ability to fly through LAX-IAH-MIA flights.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3756 times:

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 6):
The HNL-ANC-LGW service as a disaster for loads with flight attendants (double crew) sometimes outnumbering passengers. the LAX-MIA service wasn't as bad, but FLL and NAS tags were added to bolster this route, which performed poorly.

I had no idea Western operated any LGW service - obviously, it didn't go well, but does anyone else have more color on why they started the service or the operational components around it? How many planes they nused, equipment (I'm assuming a DC-10), and why they thought there was enough demand?

What about the standalone DEN-LGW service? Did this fare better? How long was it around compared to HNL-ANC-LGW?



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3127 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3743 times:

Quoting planespotting (Reply 8):
What about the standalone DEN-LGW service? Did this fare better? How long was it around compared to HNL-ANC-LGW?

I'd like to know this in comparison to CO's DEN-LGW service in about the same era, but not overlapping. I too forgot that WA had the DEN-LGW route at one time. I flew on the CO flight luckily enough for me!

-Rampart


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25145 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3663 times:

Quoting planespotting (Reply 8):
What about the standalone DEN-LGW service? Did this fare better? How long was it around compared to HNL-ANC-LGW?

I think both routes started and ended about the same time. Both lasted about 18 months.

DEN-LGW was part of a through flight that operated LAX-LAS-DEN-LGW with the same aircraft.

Quoting planespotting (Reply 8):
How many planes they nused, equipment (I'm assuming a DC-10)

They bought one DC-10-30 from NZ for those routes. That aircraft always operated the DEN-LGW route and many of the HNL-ANC-LGW flights, but the DC-10-10 could also handle the HNL-ANC-LGW route. In their March 1981 timetable DEN-LGW was 3 x week and HNL-ANC-LGW 2 x week, so one aircrat could probably handle it all.

After they dropped those routes they used their sole DC-10-30 on a joint operation with Air Pacific LAX-HNL-NAN for a while, with the aircraft painted in Air Pacific livery but flown by WA pilots. It operated as a Western flight LAX-HNL and as an Air Pacific flight (operated by Western) HNL-NAN. After that operation ended they sold the DC-10-30 to AA. That aircraft in its various liveries below. In the photo in Air Pacific livery you can just see a small "Operated by Western Airlines" decal to the right of the 2nd door.


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Photo © Kjell Nilsson
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Photo © Paul Robinson


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Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.
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Photo © Carlos A. Morillo Doria



User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 3):
Are you perhaps thinking of Northeast Airlines? ...who for a few years before being absorbed into Delta (October 1972) had MIA-LAX v.v. non-stop authority...NE was also serving Nassau at the time. The CAB did not allow NE's MIA-LAX authority to pass on to Delta.



Northeast served MIA since the 1950's. They were located in what is now Concourse F along with National Airlines. Which concourse did Western go out of at MIA? Again I'm guessing F or G. I thought Western flew into MIA up until the 1980's merger with DL. I learn something new every day. BTW, did DL fly any DC-10's in the early 70's? I know DL went with the L1011 but in the early days of the wide body era flew some 747's and I swear I remember some DC-10's in DL livery way before their merger with Western. While on early 70's aviation and MIA Eastern too went with the L1011 and leased a few 747's when did Eastern first fly DC-10's? Again I swear I remember a DC-10 in the hockey stick livery even before the A-300's.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 11):
BTW, did DL fly any DC-10's in the early 70's? I know DL went with the L1011 but in the early days of the wide body era flew some 747's and I swear I remember some DC-10's in DL livery way before their merger with Western. While on early 70's aviation and MIA Eastern too went with the L1011 and leased a few 747's when did Eastern first fly DC-10's? Again I swear I remember a DC-10 in the hockey stick livery even before the A-300's.

DL flew five DC-10s from 1972 to 1975. The aircraft were originally ordered by UA, but UA leased them to DL prior to delivery. DL agreed to lease the DC-10s from UA because DL was short on wide body capacity due to L-1011 delivery delays. At the time of the DL / UA agreement, there was some concern that the L-1011 would not be built, due to the Rolls Royce bankruptcy / Lockheed potential bankruptcy.

After DL received sufficient L-1011s, the five DC-10s were returned to UA.

DL's first DC-10 route was ATL-MIA, in Dec 1972.

EA did not fly DC-10s until 1985. EA purchased two DC-10-30s, and leased a third, for the MIA-SCL/EZE/LGW routes, which EA's L-1011-1s did not have the range for. EA's DC-10s were also used on domestic flights (there are pictures of them at LAX and JFK) between international assignments.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3422 times:

Delta ordered five DC-10's from MDD in March of 1971, eight months before the airplane went into service with American and United. Then Delta sold the aircraft to United and leased them back. They were leased from United, but they were ordered new from the factory. At the time, there was a question whether the L-1011 would ever be delivered because of the Rolls Royce bankruptcy over the developmental problems with the RB211 series of engines. Delta did not make the deal to sell these five aircraft to United Air Lines and lease them back until June of 1972, some 16 months after they were ordered.

[Edited 2012-02-08 05:10:50]

http://newspaperarchive.com/tucson-daily-citizen/1972-06-07/page-45/
I am not sure if you will be able to get this link, but there are contemporary newspaper articles reporting the sale from Delta to United.


[Edited 2012-02-08 05:12:54]

User currently offlineWALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 11):
Which concourse did Western go out of at MIA? Again I'm guessing F or G.

I am not familiar with the MIA concourse designations, but maybe someone in-the-know can identify it from this pic:


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Photo © Peter de Groot




In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2689 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3270 times:

Quoting WALmsp (Reply 14):
Quoting zippyjet (Reply 11):
Which concourse did Western go out of at MIA? Again I'm guessing F or G.

I am not familiar with the MIA concourse designations, but maybe someone in-the-know can identify it from this pic:

It looks like concourse D, one of today's AA concourses.


User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 12):
EA did not fly DC-10s until 1985. EA purchased two DC-10-30s, and leased a third, for the MIA-SCL/EZE/LGW routes, which EA's L-1011-1s did not have the range for. EA's DC-10s were also used on domestic flights (there are pictures of them at LAX and JFK) between international assignments.

For the EAL DC10-30s: The three frames came from Alitalia, but not straight to EAL. FedEx FEASI (I think Federal Express Aviation Services Inc.) had bought the three frames for the FedEx fleet but then resold the frames to EAL. EAL accepted the FEASI Alitalia contract terms and FEASI made a several million dollar fee. One of my EAL Project Engineer friends spent time in Italy during the transfer process and had some really good stories about the negotiations to carry out the contract. My friend had a very Italian last name and had a fairly good grasp of their language, but during the meetings when they didn't want my friend to be privy to their side conversations they would speak in French. My friend also could do French and finally told them everything that had gone on in their side conversations.

Anyway....


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting bohica (Reply 15):
I am not familiar with the MIA concourse designations, but maybe someone in-the-know can identify it from this pic:

It looks like concourse D, one of today's AA concourses.



Yes you are correct that was Concourse D which is now part of the AA juggernaut at MIA. Back in the 70's the concourses were lettered when what was then the newest pier Concourse B opened for Eastern's wide body birds. I really thought Western used either Concourse F or G but I stand corrected. Back in the 70's, Eastern had B, all of C , and at least half of D concourse. Braniff and Western had the remaining gates. I learn something new every day. Amazing how there's little if any information available about MIA concourse and gate assignments from 1959 when the current terminal opened to when AA became the big carrier at MIA.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinePacificClipper From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 7):
The route was an NA monopoly in that timeframe

Indeed. The May 1, 1979 NA schedule shows 4 non-stops: LAX-MIA operating 3x/daily, all DC-10 and 1x/daily LAX-FLL, DC-10.



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