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Air Canada Lurches Toward Another Strike Vote  
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9918 times:

This time it is the pilots' union, whose cooling off period expires Feb. 14. Not sure why they would bother, when its clear the government will order them back to work just as they did with the agents and FA's last year.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...earing-strike-vote/article2330155/

203 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 9896 times:

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 2, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

I sincerely hope there is no disruption to AC's ops. I am scheduled to fly AC to YYZ and back in late February and early March.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineBoeingorbust From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9821 times:

I doubt you'll get disrupted... Pilots will get ordered back to work just as the flight attendants did and the employees will hate the company, union and government even more than they do now (if that's even possible).

Strikes at AC are common every time the negotiations go around... Never last long though. I'm sure another chapter 11 is lingering as well!


User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2685 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9801 times:

It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

Talk about sabotaging negociations !

in Europe, Spanair went bust, Malev is gone, and yet here in Canada, our goverment wants to keep afloat an airline that clearly can't swim!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not necessarily taking the union's side on this issue. Both F/A's and pilots at AC are well payed, in general.

I am however, taking ANY unionized employee's side on the issue, in that any unionised employee has the right to strike, in accordance with the rules and regulations set forth by the union and the employer.

What Harper is doing goes against this fundamental principle. This is what I have a problem with !

Thenoflyzone



us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 9768 times:

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?

Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...les-to-147-million/article1598432/



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16370 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9762 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !

Agreed. Any union should have the right to strike.

The government should stay out of this. If there is a strike, the national economy will not be impacted....AC is not big enough to affect GNP. Anyone impacted by a strike, can raise their concerns with the 3 parties involved: the unions, management and the owners.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBoeingorbust From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 9730 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

Talk about sabotaging negociations !

in Europe, Spanair went bust, Malev is gone, and yet here in Canada, our goverment wants to keep afloat an airline that clearly can't swim!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not necessarily taking the union's side on this issue. Both F/A's and pilots at AC are well payed, in general.

I am however, taking ANY unionized employee's side on the issue, in that any unionised employee has the right to strike, in accordance with the rules and regulations set forth by the union and the employer.

What Harper is doing goes against this fundamental principle. This is what I have a problem with !

Thenoflyzone

Exactly! What do they have a union for when the union services can't even be used. People have the right to strike!

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?

Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

Also agreed! It's terrible what executives have done to that airline over the past ten years. It's like a scheme! "Become CEO of AC and get a few extra million over the next few years, then lose your job with a nice cherry on top and let someone else come in for a ride!" Think of how the employees must feel as this kind of behavior has been exercised ever since the Canadian takeover! It's disgraceful!


User currently offlineyxu737 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9669 times:

You know what the government should of never stepped in and Lisa Raitt the Ministry of Labour should be ashamed of herself. The government only steps in when it is in the best interest of the government and I am sick and tired of the Canadian Government. Let the pilots strike if they want to.

Here is a response to why they intervened in the FA dispute in a rant about a issue in London ontario

This is what I wrote
"To whom it may concern
I find it very sad that the government only steps in when things are in the best interest of the government. Why don’t you help the employees of Electro-Motive just like the government helped out Air Canada in telling the Flight Attendants to go back to work when they were able to strike and threatening them with back to work legislation but in fact it is our right to be able to strike. ohhhhhhh just wait a minute this was a federal issue so thats why they stepped in but Electro-Motive is a “provincial matter”. Soon it will be a national problem when all the companies close up shop here and go elsewhere and then we will see who’s problem it is. If tax dollars are being used to entice companies to set up shop here or maintain what they have here then we should get a good bang for our buck key word is our money.
MC"


Dear Mark,



Thank you for contacting me regarding the ongoing labour situation at Electro-Motive Diesel (EMD) in London, Ontario.



EMD is a private company that is currently engaged in a labour situation with their employees who are represented by the Canadian Auto Workers (CAW). I strongly support continued EMD operations in London and the employment it provides and I hope a satisfactory resolution can be found for the sake of the employees and their families.



I am aware that the EMD situation places stress and hardship on the employees and the community and that there have been calls for the federal Government and others to intervene in this situation. The Federal government does not have jurisdiction over this labour dispute. The Government of Canada holds jurisdiction over federally-regulated workplaces, Crown Corporations, and the federal Public Service. Some have pointed to the example of recent federal labour disputes at Canada Post and Air Canada (one a Crown Corporation, the other a federally-regulated workplace) as examples of federal intervention. EMD is a private company and is not a federally-regulated workplace.



This labour situation falls entirely under the jurisdiction of the Province of Ontario and not the Government of Canada. Thus, the Government of Canada cannot intervene in this labour dispute. CAW Local 27 knows this very well and I would strongly encourage them to ask the Government of Ontario to make its position known.

Some have suggested that direct financial benefits were provided by the federal Government to EMD and this is simply not the case. An announcement was made at the EMD plant a few years ago to highlight tax changes that would benefit the customers of EMD and other related manufacturers. Both the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology and the Standing Committee on Finance had recommended an increase to the Capital Cost Allowance (CCA) rate on rail equipment. Budget 2008 increased the CCA rate for railway locomotives to 30 per cent from 15 per cent. This change ensured that the CCA rate for railway locomotives better reflects the useful life of these assets. It also encourages rail operators to acquire a newer, more fuel-efficient fleet of locomotives (e.g. hybrid locomotives), which provide a more environmentally-friendly mode of transportation. This change is effective for new locomotives acquired on or after February 26, 2008, as well as for reconditioning and refurbishing costs incurred on or after February 26, 2008.

Again, it is my hope that both parties are able to find a satisfactory solution for the employees of EMD quickly to ensure long-term competitive operations in London. Thank you for sharing your concerns with me and for providing me with the opportunity to share my position with you.





Kind regards,



Ed Holder, MP

London West


User currently offlineyxu737 From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 20 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9654 times:

You can't compare Emirates to any other airline first of all. An airline that is indirectly funded by one of the richest countries in the world. Emirates is owned by a government investment firm with unlimited funds the Investment Corporation of Dubai which is a fund owned by the Emirates.

User currently offlineftornik From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9626 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

The only reason why the Gov't interferes is because AC is becoming too big to fail. We have allowed them to form the A++ joint venture with Continental, Lufthansa and United, the gov't is monitoring their pension shortfall issue and even so, it teters towards the Canadian equivalent of Chapter 11. I'm sure gov't officials would like to put the airline out of its misery and nothing would do that faster than letting the collective bargaining process really run its course. The Pilots have labour-managament issues that have been on the back-burner since the merger with Canadian in 2000. The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli? Westjet does a great job of serving most of Canada, but the 10% of Canadian who don't live close to a city served by Westjet would be quite isolated if AC failed.


User currently offlineAirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9536 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 1):

Who needs Emirates to destroy AirCanada when their unions are performing that task already ?
Quoting yxu737 (Reply 9):
You can't compare Emirates to any other airline first of all. An airline that is indirectly funded by one of the richest countries in the world. Emirates is owned by a government investment firm with unlimited funds the Investment Corporation of Dubai which is a fund owned by the Emirates.

I don't even think Emirates should be mentioned in this thread. It really has nothing to due with the threat of a strike at Air Canada. But that's just my opinion.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):

It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !

The current government believes that they have the right to get involved with anything which may have any negative impact on the economy. How many times during the last AC labour issue did they throw around the term 'economic recovery'? This situation will be interesting to watch. The fear from some in the unions (and this is not just limited to those at Air Canada) I know is that management will not bargain in good faith if they know/feel that the government will just step-in in the end.



The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9372 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 4):
It boggles my mind how a goverment can intervene in a private airline's affairs with its own employees !
It boggles my mind that even before AC's F/A negociations were completed, the minister of Transport was ready to draft a motion to put back to work the F/A's in case they decided to go on strike.

because the bureaucracy advise the ministers and many in the bureaucracy still view AC as a Crown Corporation , even 25 years after privatisation. As well, AC is not a normal private company as it is governed (straightjacketed ?) by the Air Canada Public Participation Act, which puts a large number of obligations on the company, unlike ANY other private firm in the country. AC is not truly private in that sense.

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

I agree management are being unreasonable, particularly when you take into account the very generous bonuses that management have awarded themselves in the past few years, often when swimming in red ink. The optics of that are terrible.

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
The fear from some in the unions (and this is not just limited to those at Air Canada) I know is that management will not bargain in good faith if they know/feel that the government will just step-in in the end.

I think an entirely valid p.o.v. I don't think management ARE negotiating in good faith. I am not sure but possibly the CIRB (Canadian Industrial Relations Board for non-Canadians, which IIRC has the status of a court) can rule on this if ACPA bring suit.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9254 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 5):
Have you actually looked at the contract the company is trying to jam down the pilots throats. I take it then you would be happy to have your Pension taken away, pay reduced, working conditions worsen while one of the CEO's salary keeps on soaring. Check out Robert Milton's pay at the link below! 82 million that he has taken ONLY from ACE in 4 years!

That's pretty much what happened at bankrupt US legacy carriers though isn't it? They are AC's competition, not LH or SIA.


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5162 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 9227 times:

Air Canada management has set this up to fail. That was obvious from the start. For the last year, Air Canada's pilots have reassured the Government that they would not strike, not disrupting Canada's apparent fragile economy. All the pilots want to do is negotiate, nothing more. They want to enter into arbitration, in front of an unbiased judge and plead their case ... letting the chips fall where they may. And, accept government sanctioned binding arbitration.

But, that is what Air Canada does NOT want. They have presented two contract proposals, one last month, one six months ago that clearly could not be accepted. The last one was so horrendous it was apparent they were trying to incite some sort of backlash, so that they may go to the government pointing fingers. That has not happened, the pilots have repeated their desire for negotiation.

Remember that during this time, managers voted themselves $39M in bonuses in 2010, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012. That is the problem when one uses EDITBAR for bonuses and not actual airline performance. That way you don't have to be good at what you do to get a bonus.

I wont go into the contract proposal specifics, as it would not be appropriate ... but just a glimpse shows that about 1000 of AC's pilots and about 400 of Jazz's pilots would be redundant. (A lot of Jazz pilot's flying actually comes under the AC pilots umbrella),



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineYOWVIEWER From Canada, joined Jun 2010, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9124 times:

Quoting AirCanada787 (Reply 11):
The problem is that if AC dies, how do you get from Lethbridge to Mont Joli? Westjet does a great job of serving most of Canada, but the 10% of Canadian who don't live close to a city served by Westjet would be quite isolated if AC failed.

I do not necessarily agree. Maybe at first, but the government needs to stay out and let the process run it's due course.
In the meantime if there is money to be made on the isolated feeder routes you can bet that Porter, Bearskin, Transat, First Air, Air Inuit, Westjet / Westjet "Lite", etc. will step in. Even Sunwing is popping into places like Sault Ste Marie for charters, they could grab a bit of extra traffic as well. I can see Porter picking up Mont Joli pretty quick if needed.


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9109 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
Air Canada management has set this up to fail. That was obvious from the start. For the last year, Air Canada's pilots have reassured the Government that they would not strike, not disrupting Canada's apparent fragile economy. All the pilots want to do is negotiate, nothing more. They want to enter into arbitration, in front of an unbiased judge and plead their case ... letting the chips fall where they may. And, accept government sanctioned binding arbitration.

But, that is what Air Canada does NOT want. They have presented two contract proposals, one last month, one six months ago that clearly could not be accepted. The last one was so horrendous it was apparent they were trying to incite some sort of backlash, so that they may go to the government pointing fingers. That has not happened, the pilots have repeated their desire for negotiation.

Remember that during this time, managers voted themselves $39M in bonuses in 2010, just announced $101M bonuses for 2011 and the CEO will get a further $5M if he stays until April 1, 2012. That is the problem when one uses EDITBAR for bonuses and not actual airline performance. That way you don't have to be good at what you do to get a bonus.

I wont go into the contract proposal specifics, as it would not be appropriate ... but just a glimpse shows that about 1000 of AC's pilots and about 400 of Jazz's pilots would be redundant. (A lot of Jazz pilot's flying actually comes under the AC pilots umbrella),

One of the biggest problems with this company is the silo-focused mentality of various labour groups. Air Canada pilots seem to have their heads in the sand, seemingly blind to the notion that the industry is becoming increasingly globalized. They seem ignorant to the fact that Air Canada's cost structure is so uncompetitive, that Air Canada can't compete effectively with growing foreign and domestic low-cost competition.

The pilot group among others don't recognize that Air Canada's net profit margin in 2010 was below the acceptable level of return for any investor. The continuous rhetoric about management bonuses (management staff typically paid less than pilots fyi) is secondary to a large set of issues which the entire corporation faces.

The pilot group including longhauler, doesn't seem genuinely interested in being part of the solution. They've turned down productivity increases, and turned down a useful tool (low-cost carrier) that will enable Air Canada to compete in tomorrow's marketplace. Now the pilots are complaining that AC isn't negotiating in good faith?

For the purpose of this discussion, Air Canada has the highest unit revenue production of any major airline in North America. Yet, Air Canada has the highest unit cost of any major airline in North America. So if AC's strengths are revenue production, and AC's weakness is costs, what are the pilots going to do to help this airline be leaner and more nimble to win in an increasingly competitive market?

The pilot seems unaware that what is really at stake here - is their jobs. If AC doesn't survive over the long-term, pilots will be looking for cheap non-unionized work in the Middle East or in Asia... perhaps wishing they had been more co-operative.


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 840 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9096 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
The pilot group including longhauler, doesn't seem genuinely interested in being part of the solution. They've turned down productivity increases, and turned down a useful tool (low-cost carrier) that will enable Air Canada to compete in tomorrow's marketplace. Now the pilots are complaining that AC isn't negotiating in good faith?

The pilot group, along with other employee groups, have been part of the solution for the last 9 years since CCAA. In that time they've seen to company broken up and sold off while the pockets of Milton and Rovenescu have been filled with ridiculous amounts in the forms of pay and bonuses. When is enough enough? Do you really blame the employees for being fed up? No, everyone just blames the employees for the company not doing well. Yet nothing is said about the greed of the CEOs of the company.


User currently offlinezbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1993 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9081 times:

FLYYUL the problem with your argument is AC pilot's are actually more competitive than their main rivals WS. While they are more competitive than those pilots they are still asked to lower their bar. Perhaps the problem is not with the pilots at all? You mention many "managers" at AC earn less than pilots, and you are right and they should. Many of the managers at AC would be regular employees at other companies but at AC they have been granted titles so they can not form a union. They have too many chiefs and not enough indians.

If you actually look at middle management and upper management you will see where the grotesque level of greed is. Perhaps AC's management should also look at others (mainly WS) to see what it is like to be competitive.



Keep the shinny side up!
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 17):

The pilot group, along with other employee groups, have been part of the solution for the last 9 years since CCAA. In that time they've seen to company broken up and sold off while the pockets of Milton and Rovenescu have been filled with ridiculous amounts in the forms of pay and bonuses. When is enough enough? Do you really blame the employees for being fed up? No, everyone just blames the employees for the company not doing well. Yet nothing is said about the greed of the CEOs of the company

Whiteguy - this is becoming emotional instead of rational. Even if we slash the CEO and executive management's pay to $1, we still have an airline that is limping along and is extremely uncompetitive with WestJet, Sunwing, Qatar, Cathay, even Delta. How do you expect Air Canada to survive? How do you expect the pilots and the employees to have a job in the next decade?

May I remind you that the aeroplan/Jazz spin-off allowed Air Canada the capital required to purchase the new 777s and do project XM on all of the fleet. How else did you think that cash was going to be raised?


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9081 times:

Quoting zbbylw (Reply 18):
FLYYUL the problem with your argument is AC pilot's are actually more competitive than their main rivals WS. While they are more competitive than those pilots they are still asked to lower their bar. Perhaps the problem is not with the pilots at all? You mention many "managers" at AC earn less than pilots, and you are right and they should. Many of the managers at AC would be regular employees at other companies but at AC they have been granted titles so they can not form a union. They have too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Can you please demonstrate how Air Canada pilots are more productive than WestJet pilots?


User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5162 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8984 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 16):
The pilot group among others don't recognize that Air Canada's net profit margin in 2010 was below the acceptable level of return for any investor

Oh they recognize it ... they are just sick of being blamed for it!

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
Whiteguy - this is becoming emotional instead of rational. Even if we slash the CEO and executive management's pay to $1, we still have an airline that is limping along and is extremely uncompetitive with WestJet, Sunwing, Qatar, Cathay, even Delta

Same thing if you slashed pilot wages to $1 as well.

Right now, AC pilots produce more RPMs per pilot than Cathay, Delta and Westjet. No idea about Sunwing, their numbers are not within the public domain. Greater than Westjet mostly because of the larger aircraft and greater distance involved. But greater than Delta (and most international American carriers) and Cathay because antiquated duty rules set by Transport Canada allow AC to fly the Atlantic and most of the Pacific with one less pilot. For example YYZ-FRA flies with two pilots at AC, while JFK-FRA carries three at AA. Three pilots on YYZ-TLV, four pilots on JFK-TLV! In other words as much as 33% more productive at AC.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
May I remind you that the aeroplan/Jazz spin-off allowed Air Canada the capital required to purchase the new 777s and do project XM on all of the fleet. How else did you think that cash was going to be raised?

Nope.

Not one penny of the $2.5B that was raped from Air Canada in the last 5 years went back into the airline ... not one penny! It all went into ACE Aviation, which was divided among International Investors, leaving AC where it is today ... a name shell set up to make external interests wealthy. Very sad for the Canadian taxpayer.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
How do you expect Air Canada to survive? How do you expect the pilots and the employees to have a job in the next decade?

Hopefully with a management team that looks beyond their next bonus cheque.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 20):
Can you please demonstrate how Air Canada pilots are more productive than WestJet pilots?

Not just Air Canada pilots (by a long shot), but also Air Canada employees. Look at employee cost per "equivalent full time employee". This is where most people looking at the numbers make a mistake, they look at total employees. But, in the financial results of both Air Canada and Westjet, you will see a term "equivalent full time employee". That is because more than 30% of AC employees are now part-time. They receive greatly reduced benefits and only work during peak times. Very efficient.

Look at their cost (including pension) per employee, you will see that it is within 2% of Westjet. Also, you will see they produce more RPMs than Westjet. Kind of makes one wonder where the money actually is going, now that management can't use the employees as an excuse.

It is one of the main reasons Westjet was not mentioned in the last set of employee negotiations. That bar has been met, management is now looking for a lower bar.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5162 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 8953 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 20):

I should also mention an important point. The pilots (for example) are not arguing the points you mention. They want the opportunity to argue the points you mention. That luxury/right may well be removed.

If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then so be it. Let's hear it from an unbiased judge/arbitrator, after both sides have had the opportunity to present their case.

That is the main point I was making above. The pilots are lobbying the Government for the chance at negotiation. If the result of that negotiation are the facts you state above, then nothing more can be said and it must be accepted.

However, Air Canada's management appears to be trying to avoid that negotiation. The last offer was clearly made to incite a reaction among the pilot group hoping to cause some illegal job action, (which wont happen) so that management can point at the pilots, when meeting with the government. For reasons I can only speculate, Air Canada appears to fear meeting before an arbitrator allowing both side to speak.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8928 times:

Longhauler,

Skew the facts they way you want them. Air Canada could be another AMR

Quoting longhauler (Reply 21):

Not one penny of the $2.5B that was raped from Air Canada in the last 5 years went back into the airline ... not one penny! It all went into ACE Aviation, which was divided among International Investors, leaving AC where it is today ... a name shell set up to make external interests wealthy. Very sad for the Canadian taxpayer.

That is a complete lie. It just shows you're arguing without knowing the facts. I'm not sure where you're getting your information, but i've offered numerous times to come into HQ for a fact session with our people. You've declined numerous times.

Longhauler, if we don't collectively change our attitudes, chances are we're going to be applying for a job at WestJet or Emirates or AirAsia. Your choice.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:33:46]

User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (2 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8915 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 22):
If what you say is accurate, and it may well be, then so be it. Let's hear it from an unbiased judge/arbitrator, after both sides have had the opportunity to present their case.

That is the main point I was making above. The pilots are lobbying the Government for the chance at negotiation. If the result of that negotiation are the facts you state above, then nothing more can be said and it must be accepted.

I'm not going to comment or speculate on why this is not moving forward. All I can say is that numerous offers were made to the pilots that;

a.) guaranteed jobs at mainline for existing pilots
b.) proposed productivity increases which help address AC's cost issues
c.) set-up a low-cost carrier with wages/benefits comparable to Sunwing/Transat/JetStar etc while grandfathering AC pilots at mainline and guaranteeing parallel growth at mainline.
d.) the executives did a road show with the pilots to discuss the merits of this plan.

All 3 proposals were rejected, and ACPA's previous leadership was swiftly removed. Even ACPA previous leadership thought that this was a fair and balanced deal for both sides.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but an unbias set of observers would argue that the pilots are not negotiating in good faith.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:40:28]

25 whiteguy : You ask for the facts, he gives you the facts, and you accuse him of skewing the facts. Nice!! What's the point? And what exactly do you do at HQ? Ma
26 flyyul : Whatever I do at HQ makes me qualified to respond to unsubstantiated "facts" made by the certain employees. Being close to the day to day financial s
27 longhauler : Exactly. I am not going to argue your (ahem) "facts" on here. That is inappropriate. However, I will continue to argue for the right to negotiate bef
28 whiteguy : I may not know all the "facts" but having been in industry 20+ years, worked at AC for almost 10 years and still have family members working there, I
29 connies4ever : Per my Reply 14, it seems clear that management is "negotiating" in bad faith. Whatever FLYYUL might say. My brother was in management (labour) at Ja
30 AirCanada787 : That quote isn't actually something I wrote in reply 11. Just an FYI. Its actually from ftornik in reply 10. I haven't of course seen the offers pres
31 Skywatcher : As a frequent AC customer I feel that I'm entitled to an opinion. As far as I'm concerned at this point it basically boils down to "put AC out of this
32 longhauler : Rest assured, your trip is not threatened. The pilots made that clear from the start. While a strike vote will be taken, it has to, there will be no
33 cyeg66 : So I'm curious, fact or fiction? If it is indeed fact, then your comment that this ^ sort of stuff, let's call it "leakage", is perfectly normal and
34 YOWVIEWER : DB pension plans are dinosaurs now. Global economy cannot support them. And why can't you have a "suitable" retirement based on a DC pension plan ? So
35 connies4ever : Easy. A very technically competent airline, offering a very good schedule, and with quality service. Even during the threatened FA strike period, whe
36 YVRLTN : Have no dog in this fight, but... Now we know where Dr Mazza got his business ideas from! My 2 cents, AC management needs to be very careful, what wit
37 longhauler : As I said above, I wont discuss specifics, as I don't feel it is appropriate. However, I will discuss this common misconception. The "Global Economy"
38 yyz717 : Not true. I would say most Canadians are opposed to DB pensions. Most working Canadians today do not even have a corporate pension plan, so it seems
39 threepoint : I think you're confused, as we don't have chapter 11 in Canada. Look up CCAA. Well there won't be a strike as was mentioned before, but funny how the
40 Post contains images Boeingorbust : So sorry good sir... Bankruptcy and restructure
41 Boeingorbust : Question is does the implementation of WS's new regional change the governments opinion on another strike down the road? If WS takes care of the domes
42 Post contains images ANM604 : In AC threads, especially ones related to unions, the emotions always seem to run extra high, which I fear may cloud what could be some constructive d
43 abrelosojos : I have a silly question as being from outside Canada and developing a new found interest in the country's aviation sector. If AC goes to strike, can't
44 connies4ever : Totally separate, they basically do contract flying for AC under a CPA. Even if they wanted to, they don't have the staff or equipment to 'take over'
45 threepoint : Scrapping the Act would do nothing but good for AC as many of the provisions contained within are costly and unnecessary. But let's be clear, while o
46 connies4ever : Threepoint, Neil is comparing apples to oranges, something he's good at. Hmm..perhaps a lawyer ? AC's unit costs MUST be higher than WS since they ar
47 SixtySeven : To be clear. The Air Canada pilots DO NOT want to go before a judge and enter into BINDING ARBITRATION. They want to freely negotiate a new Collective
48 connies4ever : To be clear ... I agree. AC Pilots are not extreme. There will be a strike vote, but I think no strike. This is all shadow dancing. New Tom Paton, da
49 longhauler : Looking at the 4th quarter results of both Air Canada and Westjet, an interesting comparison appears. Air Canada had 23600 equivalent full time emplo
50 longhauler : Air Canada A320 pilots already make less than WS B737 pilots. I am assuming you have singled out pilots as this is a discussion of a current pilot st
51 SixtySeven : Although this is pilot focused, do you think the unskilled labor force does not have a massive interest in this?? Yes they surely do. They gave up ver
52 Viscount724 : However, in a lengthy strike, since they would be carrying far fewer passengers who now connect to/from mainline AC flights, frequency on many AC Exp
53 flyyul : Let's rid of Air Canada's executive salaries. Good start! So we saved a few million bucks. AC has a billion dollar problem. AC has $10B in revenue in
54 WestJet747 : You start making a really good point, and then invalidate but not showing the other side of the equation. Using the percentages you calculated as rel
55 multimark : Don't forget Jazz also now has a substantial pool of 757 trained employees, a perfect a/c for Canadian transcontinental flying. How many '57s are ava
56 multimark : Really? How strange then that 91% of WS pilots voted in favour of creating a separate regional airline with a lower paid pilot group, whereas AC pilo
57 JoeCanuck : So what is the cost breakdown for AC? There is no doubt that expenses have to be lowered...what can be cut to get the airline into a more consistently
58 whiteguy : 91% of WS EMPLOYEES voted in favor, not just pilots! It would be interesting to see what % of pilots voted in favor.
59 sebring : Milton is irrelevant to Air Canada. He left the board a long time ago, Ace is a minority shareholder with no board representation. What he gets paid
60 sebring : They are meeting and have been meeting for months now. There is a federal mediator in the file.
61 sebring : And expenses? How about a pension plan? Westjet doesn't have a pension plan, you do.[Edited 2012-02-09 19:16:27]
62 kiramakora : I find it pretty amazing. On one side, such employee/management hatred (Air Canada), on the other side (WestJet) employee/management get together to s
63 whiteguy : ACE has an 11.11% stake in AC and 2 members of the AC board of directors also sit on the ACE board with Milton.
64 flyyul : Contrary to popular belief, there are many other employees at WestJet and Air Canada than just pilots. All employees want what's best for their emplo
65 abrelosojos : = As much as I think AC has poor strategy and execution, this is very well said. Saludos, A.
66 sebring : What I said stands. ACE has no representation on the AC board. I don't care about an 11% shareholder any more or less than any other. ACE isn't calli
67 ANM604 : Which could explain their high costs. Not to pick on any group, but some of the Rampee's are making 60-80k a year, once OT is factored in. That is HU
68 whiteguy : As I was pointing out, it was not 91% of pilots that voted in favor of the regional. It was 91% of the employees! Pretty sure the pilots want to make
69 Post contains links blueflyer : Contrast to so while it's supposed it's anything but. But when, not if, the actuaries are wrong, doesn't the employer have to step in with the differe
70 SixtySeven : Beware of the armchair quarterback. Armed with an afternoons knowledge. You may all sit there and think you know the reasons and answers. What is abou
71 JoeCanuck : That's all well and good but it doesn't actually answer any questions. The costs are too high. Where do the savings come from?
72 SixtySeven : Good question mate. Last time I checked the pilots are there to fly the godammed airplanes. They do it so well, nobody pays them any mind. Post all th
73 flyyul : Who is saying we have little regard for pilots? Air canada is in trouble. Pilots dont want to offer any solutions but to point finger sat calin and ma
74 Post contains links RP TPA : Well, at least SOMEBODY has settled (tentatively. at this point). AC and IAMAW reach agreement: http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item
75 longhauler : If you look at the 2011 results for both Air Canada and Westjet, you will find the total cost per employee, INCLUDING pensions and benefits (on the A
76 whiteguy : Sorry have to disagree with you on this. Yes the pilots have given up more than their fair share for the company, the FAs are still below CCAA levels
77 threepoint : Every pilot who voted to support a low-cost regional subsidiary of WestJet using lower-paid pilots did so in the knowledge that it wouldn't be him or
78 whiteguy : But you don't know how many pilots voted in favor. The only thing known is at least 50% voted in favor of it. The pilots had the veto on the whole de
79 Skywatcher : The very fact that AC pilots are unionized at all blows my mind. The fact that they are "managers" of their aircraft and like to be acknowledged as su
80 SixtySeven : Do you think the pilots are ABOVE pre CCAA levels? A quick message to anyone working for Air Canada that is not a pilot. Article 2 of the pilots contr
81 zbbylw : Just remember that those senior pilots (777 skippers for example) have 349 lives they have to successfully bring from point A to B let alone the crew
82 SixtySeven : There are more pilots at Air Canada making less the 45K than there are flying in the left seat of the 777 making the top salary. By about 100. Funny.
83 longhauler : Are you sure about this? One recently told me otherwise. Yes you are wrong. But ... believe it or not, wages are not the big issue here. Understand a
84 whiteguy : Yup, positive, FAs are still making about $3 or $4 less than pre CCAA.
85 Skywatcher : I'm not diminishing the importance of pilots at all. I simply don't understand why they are not part of the management structure as opposed to them be
86 longhauler : Historically, pilots have been members of a trade union for safety reasons. Back before the says of government mandated duty restrictions, unions sta
87 longhauler : While I don't think it is a scientific representative example, when I talk among my flying buddies, this question comes up. one would think like you,
88 Skywatcher : First of all I'd like to state that I'm simply a consumer (2 or 3 times a year) of the service that AC offers to its customers. I try to keep a balanc
89 multimark : And a Dash-8 pilot will take responsibility for that many lives in one day, and do so flying the most critical parts of a flight (takeoff/landing) fa
90 Post contains images Kaiarahi : It's a specious argument. If you follow this logic, the captain of a cruise ship should be paid $1+ million, AMEs should be paid the same as pilots,
91 SixtySeven : AMEs should be very well paid. They are licensed. Full respect to them. To the Dash8 pilot statement. Firstly how many legs do you have this guy flyin
92 darkroast : longhauler, i respect your views generally but your statement above isnt quite right. If the actuaries were indeed accurate, then you wouldn't have a
93 Airontario : It's quite common to have a Dash 8 crew flying 7 legs a day.
94 longhauler : Yes, I certainly agree with this. The economic circumstances have made just about every investment other than a 2% GIC pretty risky. But, I would lik
95 320tech : There's a story behind this, too. Air Canada (ACE, really, but that was mostly semantics) divested itself of its maintenance operation in 2007, and t
96 yyz717 : No, you've got it wrong. An AC insider said that AC has the highest unit costs of any airline in NA. This ABSOLUTELY points the fingers at all employ
97 Post contains links 320tech : http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/in...stor/documents/2011_q2_release.pdf This release from August 2011 identifies AC's debt as having been reduced to
98 JoeCanuck : The didn't have to buy Canadian...they chose to...in fact, they outbid Onex for the opportunity.
99 whiteguy : You mean the Onex/American/Liberals deal? AC had no choice but to out bid them and were forced into the takeover. I wonder if Onex had won the bid, d
100 kric777 : At the risk of sounding like a complete ignoramus, why is Air Canada's financial position so tenuous? Labor troubles notwithstanding....I'm seeing an
101 WestJet747 : I'm not great with my Canadian commercial aviation history, but didn't Onex attempt to buy BOTH airlines with the intent to merge them? Also, this is
102 320tech : I'm not denying it was AC's choice to buy Canadian. I personally think it was Milton's huge ego that made him think he could make it work. In doing s
103 whiteguy : Canadian Airlines was in bed with Onex on the whole deal. Gerald Schwatz the head of Onex was a well known financial contributor to the Liberal party
104 IndianicWorld : Great post. This just about says it all about so many carriers these days. The enemy is usually within.
105 320tech : The unions are not the only part of the company that bears blame. I am no fan of unions, but management bears greater responsibility in this case, I
106 Kaiarahi : You repeat this anti-Quebec sentiment on just about every AC thread. The geographic location of AC's head office has nothing to do with the competenc
107 yyz717 : But AC is not, and has never, been on this list. So, in the search for solutions to AC's never-ending mgmt problems, perhaps an HQ transfer to anothe
108 Kaiarahi : What are these "never-ending" management problems? Is there a North American legacy carrier that hasn't had the same problems? Or a European one? Why
109 WestJet747 : I can't believe this conversation has degraded to the point of attacking the address of the company head office...again. 1. The location of the head o
110 whiteguy : Yet we only have one airline that has to follow rules that force it to be bilingual..... No other airline in Canada has these restrictions. Let's mak
111 WestJet747 : Canadian airlines flying into or out of Quebec are required to serve in both English and French. I believe this is a regulation at the provincial lev
112 Post contains links and images Kaiarahi : I believe at least 1 of the 7 board members is actually a francophone from outside Quebec. Prior to Calin Rovinescu, who is a Montrealer, the only Qu
113 whiteguy : Fine but all airlines can cover that by playing a recording of the safety briefing in French. Air Canada must have a bilingual flight attendant on ev
114 yyz717 : Annual losses. The only management problems that really matter. It's not just the C-level. It's the hundreds (or in AC's bloated world, thousands?) o
115 Kaiarahi : Do you have evidence / statistics to substantiate this?
116 Kaiarahi : Do we really need to stoop to defamatory language?
117 WestJet747 : Yes that is correct. The AC website says that Bernard Attali is a Parisian. ...which I find it absolutely ridiculous. Can, but don't. I have yet to t
118 ANM604 : While this might be some speculation, I have heard AC is preparing for the pilots to walk, regardless of whether Ms Raitt orders them back to work. Th
119 WestJet747 : WS is preparing for this as well. No idea about Porter though. The pool of bilingual FAs isn't large enough to sustain this. You can bet WS and PD wo
120 Post contains links and images yyz717 : Sure. See attached report from Fraser Institute (2 years old, but likely still valid) showing that Montreal has dropped from 1st to 3rd in HQ ranks i
121 whiteguy : WS if free to fly whereever they like, why should AC have to relinquish anything? I to would like to see them expand overseas. Then you could actuall
122 yyz717 : Sure the flight can operate. AC can choose, as a corporate strategy, to ignore the bilingual requirements. It has chosen not to.
123 whiteguy : Your kidding right? And pay the rediculous amount of fines that go along with that decision. Prime example is the guy from YOW that sued and won beca
124 Kaiarahi : The Fraser Institute study only covers the top 500 headquarters in Canada, as defined by FP Magazine. From Statistics Canada - Headquarters Employmen
125 WestJet747 : Mr. Attali has served as Chairman and CEO of Air France as well as Chairman of the IATA. He is more than qualified to serve on the board of ANY airli
126 yyz717 : That makes him eminently UNQUALIFIED. AF has never had a profit motive (until very recently perhaps). What is needed at this point in AC's dismal sta
127 Post contains images StarAC17 : That was a lockout, the management there simply told those people to get stuffed they weren't (Caterpillar) willing to negotiate on any of it, even w
128 darkroast : I thought the pilot pension plan could only be taken over after the shortfall had been covered. That was a several billion dollar bill for AC at a ti
129 ANM604 : I wouldn't call an AC pilot strike this. What about the people who's travel plans will be disrupted? What about tourists coming in to YVR from HKG, l
130 yyz717 : What about them? AC is losing money hand over foot and is close to bankruptcy. Its numerous strike threats over the past few months are well document
131 Kaiarahi : Perhaps a few basic facts might help here. There are no fines provided for in the legislation. Failure to comply would result in a court order requir
132 Skywatcher : Yet again the issue of language and head office location vault to the top of AC's issues according to the usual suspects. Incredible. I would wager th
133 flyyul : Skywatcher, why bother. this is the not the first time and won't be the last time that Air Canada is blamed by the Francophone people of Canada.
134 flyb : Air Canada is stuck with some old issues that I hope they can deal if they are forced to reorg. It would be nice to seem them be able to have some of
135 Post contains links ANM604 : All is not doom and gloom. It appears they have struck tentative deals with Crew Scheduling and dispatchers. Although these deals encompass only a sma
136 ytz : I don't know how true this is. But even if it's true, investors are entitled to getting a return. AC is a business. And those who choose to invest th
137 Viscount724 : I've been on several KLM flights within Europe, including one just a month or so ago, operated by Fokker 70s/100s where not one crew member (pilots a
138 whiteguy : Is KLM required by law to have Dutch speaking crew? No other airline in Canada is required by law to have a French speaking FA on board their aircraf
139 Post contains links darkroast : AC management pushing ahead with low-cost airline plans.. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...n-low-cost-venture/article2337559/
140 longhauler : You have to realize, this was the plan all along. It's not that Air Canada wants you to have a cheap seat, they want a separate unit they can sell, a
141 cyeg66 : That's, ummmm, kinda ballsy, and relatively unexpected. Why ask for Baffin Island when you can ask for the moon, I suppose? Their tactics, at least t
142 longhauler : One thing I recently learned about Canadian Labour Law, is that after the "cooling off period" which is now, Air Canada can just "force" the last off
143 WildcatYXU : I wonder who are the targeted customers...
144 ANM604 : Just out of curiosity, what do you think it would take to get the pilots involved with this LCC startup? Would they ever consider it? What if they ke
145 flyyul : Once again people are living in a different universe on this board. Read the news about Qantas. They can't turn the business around as their cost stru
146 whiteguy : If HQ has their way there will be no labor groups left to realize it!!!! The government says out economy is fragile now, let's see how it is when AC
147 flyyul : This sounds like somebody who has been influenced from fear monger's.
148 whiteguy : Just like you believing anything you hear in good old HQ. But I guess that's what you get when you've never worked the front lines at the company!!
149 flyyul : look I don't care for your view of my role within the company. It doesn't really matter that I get to see the day-to-day finances of the company, and
150 airman99o : Well I am going to say this. the only way things will work out proper at this company is : Management manage to clue the F in and realize they don't d
151 WildcatYXU : Where? In Canada? Or internationally? From whom? Didn't AC already have such low cost vehicles? How long did these live? Why they should work now if
152 flyyul : Maybe you've been hiding under a rock. Emirates/Qatar/Turkish/SkyTeam/Asian carriers/Transat/Sunwing to name but a few 10 years ago is the equivalent
153 Post contains images WildcatYXU : Yes, I became your elite customer under this rock. That said, I personally avoid all above mentioned carriers, perhaps except TK. Try to convince mor
154 longhauler : Same number of competitors, just different names ... that's all. Air Canada has always been successful with competing against just about anyone. Toda
155 threepoint : It is precisely this sentiment that undercuts the position of the trained professionals in many industries. Take pilots for example: airline manageme
156 flyyul : In this economy, loyalty is mostly price driven.
157 whiteguy : If we're talking in Canada 10 years ago there were probably more LCC than there are now. Westjet, Greyhound, Vista, Jetsgo, Harmoney, Canjet..... His
158 WildcatYXU : Well, not in my case. Of course, I look at the price as well, but I love to have sort of a value/price balance. This is why you guys (meaning AC and
159 airman99o : Howdy Threepoint! I am not trying to undercut or anything of the sort. I am not bashing the pilots, Flight Attendants, or ground staff at all. It is a
160 Kaiarahi : Absolutely untrue. By definition, price-driven low-yield pax have no loyalty whatsoever. They'll simply take the lowest price, no matter who is offer
161 threepoint : Although I have disagreed with many of flyyul's posts, I interpreted his comments as essentially the same thing you have described. I read the remark
162 flyyul : Nobody is suggesting that the mainline product by diluted. Air Canada simply wants to participate in a growing market segment that is currently prohi
163 Viscount724 : Assuming those Asian carriers have pension plans, how do their pension costs compare, and are their pension plans fully funded? Isn't the legal requi
164 Skywatcher : Does anybody have figures that indicate how many managers there are at AC and what their average salaries are? Is there any proof of the abundant clai
165 threepoint : Union executives tend to inhabit within a special kind of reality, but let's remember that neither side is immune from rhetoric. Similarly, both side
166 flyyul : The various pilots on this forum have been some good points. The base compensation for an EMB/A320 pilot vs. WestJet is similar. The biggest issue, a
167 whiteguy : So much for safety first! Let's take a pilot away and not worry about fatigue! Nobody cares about it anyway. Oh wait......what was one of the causes
168 ANM604 : I'm with you on this one, I've yet to see any evidence that AC is overstaffed with managers, or that they are overpaid/underworked. In fact, I'd say
169 yyz717 : How do you define success? I define it by profit....which AC cannot seem to generate. AC has not been successful competing against anyone. It's a pro
170 flyyul : Transport Canada regulations don't even require it. If this is such an issue, all airlines should be on an equal level.
171 whiteguy : Not crazy at all. Fatigue is a huge issue in the airline world. There are plenty of studies to back this up. There are airlines in states the run wit
172 ytz : True. But this should be addressed by regulatory requirements, not by the airline's union. Otherwise, you end up in the situation where the union is
173 saloman : Was just on an AC fight where the FA was discussing the labour issues with a passenger. The FA went on to attack the PM and started talking about when
174 Viscount724 : You're overlooking Alaska Airlines. They certainly qualify as a legacy carrier, with origins dating back to 1932.
175 whiteguy : Yeah not much difference it flights times but might be enough to warrant an extra flight attendant. If 13 FAs on Qantas is correct. For example today
176 yyz717 : How unprofessional. She should be fired. Agreed. If TS can fly with 2 pilots on long flights, AC does not need 3 pilots on the same route. You have f
177 longhauler : Simply not true .... look at AC's pilot contract again. A 3rd pilot is not required domestically until over 14 hours (or 13 hours if the crew is not
178 longhauler : Name one route that TS flies with 2 pilots where AC flies with 3. I'll give you a hint, you won't find any. AC only carries 3 pilots on longer intern
179 longhauler : I really enjoy my discussions with you. And .. would love to discuss this one, but it probably belongs in another thread. (btw, I agree)
180 whiteguy : Its been mentioned multiple times, FATIGUE!!!!! What needs to be explained? And TS does operate with 3 crew when operating flights from YVR and YYC t
181 flyyul : YUL-FCO TS 2 pilots, AC 2 pilot + 1 Relief pilot YYZ-FCO TS 2 pilots, AC 2 pilots + 1 Relief pilot YYZ-MUC AC 2 pilots + 1 Relief pilot, LH MUC-YUL 2
182 longhauler : On flights outside of North America, if the planned flying time is over 9 hours, an RP is required. Basically maximum duty time is 12 hours without a
183 sebring : Failed last spring, not last fall, and I've certainly discussed this with a few pilots who believe that wages - lack of sufficient catchup on 2003 co
184 sebring : In every single agreement negotiated so far in this round there have been concessions that have largely if not full offset the added compensation so
185 longhauler : All window dressing. The single biggest issue is that TA1 started the concept of splitting the pilot into two groups with two different sets of worki
186 yyz717 : That's not an embarassment. It's an efficiency. Perhaps one of the few in the AC world, but an efficiency nonetheless. Sure, if it reduces costs, why
187 Post contains links zbbylw : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colgan_Air_Flight_3407 Few things to add here, what can happen is a crew will fly in to YUL for example get out of the ai
188 Viscount724 : From current AC schedule, it looks like the 0700 YYZ-YOW flight arrives at 0800 and turns around and returns at 0900.
189 yyz717 : Sure, let's go down that road. Sunwing has a perfect safety record. Might be a good cost reduction road map for AC. Westjet salaries should be higher
190 YTZ : You misunderstand me. I appreciate the union pursuing a safety issue. But unfortunately, if you have other airlines with other employees who are will
191 zbbylw : Which goes against what you said that Westjet pilots do more with less. Ill ask you this if the company you work for decided to take a risk such as t
192 connies4ever : Very good article by Megan McArdle in the March issue of "The Atlantic" titled "Why Companies Fail". Basically it comes down to culture. She used GM a
193 ANM604 : Or F/A's refusing to empty the garbage and put it on the bridge. Or pilot's walking off because they might become illegal. Or rampie's driving past A
194 threepoint : As longhauler pointed out for the umpteenth time, pilots are PAID an average of 80 hours per month but will be required to work 2 or 3 times that amo
195 connies4ever : Well,fuel starvation in an A330 over the Atlantic MIGHT be considered a safety issue. Yes, the real culprit was poor mx, but the pilots also aggravat
196 Viscount724 : And AC was lucky AC143 on July 23, 1983 made it to Gimli.
197 StarAC17 : Well we do find out that a lot of carriers do get into big trouble with regulators for skirting safety requirements. Jets I think did and Tiger did i
198 WestJet747 : I'll have to disagree with that. Sure we have advanced real-time communication technology, but it doesn't guarantee a response. I prefer dealing with
199 threepoint : No matter if the cause(s) of the incident are attributed to pilots, mx personnel or anyone else, it all counts against the airline in question. But y
200 HOONS90 : At AC, the operation of the bridge (at least at YYZ) is the responsibility of the ramp crew, not the PSA. However, most airlines at T3, such as WS, C
201 threepoint : Nothing else to suggest a fuel leak? Paying attention to the quantity gauges might indicate that hmmm, we seem to be going through fuel at an abnorma
202 connies4ever : Yes they were lucky but there was the option of St Andrews north of Winnipeg. Would have been a tough landing as the runways are pretty short. I'm co
203 SA7700 : This thread has run its course and has effectively been steered into an off-topic debate - it will thus be locked. Any posts added after the thread lo
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