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AA Invites TAM To OneWorld  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11433 posts, RR: 58
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18520 times:
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As per Valor Newspaper in Brazil (today's edition), American Airlines CEO Tom Horton in a quick visit to Brazil this week besides the renegotiation of ERJ's with Brazilian Long Term Development Bank (BNDES), he said that a formal invitation for Tam to join Oneworld was made.

He expects a reply after April

AA have a very strong focus in Latin America, and also TAM have plans to further increase their operations in the United States during 2012 with the addition of 4 Boeing 77W on their routes from São Paulo GRU to both New York JFK and Miami. Rio's flights to New York will become daily and the route from Rio de Janeiro GIG to Miami is expected to be operated with A332's. Brasilia (BSB) and Belo Horizonte (CNF) flights are expected to become daily, each one with a single Boeing 767.

A link to the news story is not available for non subscribers.
http://www.valor.com.br/impresso/emp...rican-airlines-renegocia-com-bndes

(Portuguese only)

So we can expect AA+JJ and DL+G3... UA life in Brazil will be harder...



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
79 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18481 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
So we can expect AA+JJ and DL+G3... UA life in Brazil will be harder...

If they can bring AviancaBrasil into StarAlliance (not too tall an order), then it'll relieve some of that pain.

Prior to JJ betraying their old partners, they didn't fly into any PMUA or PMCO hubs anyway.


User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18243 times:

This may be the first move of a big "war" between the three alliances. However, there a two factors that may reduce that war: 1) if the authorities in Chile confirm that LATAM can't be in the alliance that AviancaTaca; 2) if DL decides they have enough with G3 and don't even try to speak with TAM.

Anyway, it's interesting that, unless they are allowed to have ATI or JV, AA and IB could have two of their biggest competitors in their alliance: LA and JJ. However, I assume it's better to have them besides you than in front of you.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1696 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18191 times:

It could be a great addition to oneworld, excellent for AA but also for IB-BA... Brazil market has a huge potential in the future and also connecting out of GRU...

So finnally with LAN in Oneworld and TAM invited we can almos say for sure that the future LATAM will go towards OneWorld 100%....


User currently offlineAAIL86 From Finland, joined Feb 2011, 409 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 18190 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Thread starter):
So we can expect AA+JJ and DL+G3... UA life in Brazil will be harder...

With all the talk here and elsewhere about how AA is weak in Europe- at least they have a profitable foothold in LHR and partners throughout the continent. After this deal potentially goes through -Star in general, and UA in particular will be left holding the bag in Latin America. AV/TA does not help them much at all to the deep south and even AR now has a dance partner...



Next
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8337 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 17830 times:
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Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 4):
With all the talk here and elsewhere about how AA is weak in Europe- at least they have a profitable foothold in LHR and partners throughout the continent. After this deal potentially goes through -Star in general, and UA in particular will be left holding the bag in Latin America. AV/TA does not help them much at all to the deep south and even AR now has a dance partner...

The only answer for Star and AV is to grow Avianca Brasil into the second international airline in Brazil. That means A330 and A350 from GRU to FRA, MIA, EWR and all other big European and American cities Star allince needs.


User currently offlineAirbusA6 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17392 times:

With IAH interested in purchasing TAP, which would presumably join OW as well, OW would hold incredible power over Latin American routes


it's the bus to stansted (now renamed national express a4 to ruin my username)
User currently offline744lover From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17315 times:

I wonder what will *A do about it.


How would their airlines (TK, LH, TP, UA, etc...) get passengers from other parts of South America? JJ is the last *A in Brazil and dare I say South America..



Just my two cents...


BR,
744lover


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 17152 times:

Quoting 744lover (Reply 7):
How would their airlines (TK, LH, TP, UA, etc...) get passengers from other parts of South America? JJ is the last *A in Brazil and dare I say South America..

Then what is Avianca-Taca? Chopped liver ?


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9779 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 17021 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
Then what is Avianca-Taca? Chopped liver ?

Precisely. People seem to overlook or maybe underestimate AV/TA/CM. They form the second largest presence in South America after LAN/TAM. They are much weaker in deep South America but on the other hand they have a pretty decent presence in the other parts of South America, dominating Colombia, competing pretty well in Peru and Ecuador and dominating Central America as well. Brazil will need much more attention from AV, there they are the weakest indeed. Is AV Brasil allowed to expand massively to better compete within the Brazilian market?

A388


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16874 times:
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Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
The only answer for Star and AV is to grow Avianca Brasil into the second international airline in Brazil.

At the risk of going OT, where would they get the slots from at heavily constrained Brazilian airports?

Back to the topic... any idea why it would be AA rather than LA who invites TAM into OneWorld? LA would seem the obvious sponsor.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16841 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
Back to the topic... any idea why it would be AA rather than LA who invites TAM into OneWorld? LA would seem the obvious sponsor.

If LAN was the sponsor, it would mean that LAN+TAM would choose at Oneworld, and thus, they would not get any possible concession or benefit from their partners. It has to be someone else from OW who invites TAM, which is the same than inviting LATAM as a whole, and like that they can negociate, even if I think that LATAM has already "decided" their alliance.

[Edited 2012-02-08 11:23:30]

User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9779 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16655 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 11):
even if I think that LATAM has already "decided" their alliance.

What I remember from previous threads on this subjects, the only way the LAN/TAM merger would be approved by the authorities (I would assume in Brazil and/or Chile), was for the LAN/TAM group not being in the same alliance as the AV/TA/CM combination. Seeing that AV/TA will join Star and LAN being a OneWorld partner already, there really is no other alliance that TAM can join, other than the OneWorld Alliance. Like you said actually, so I assume this invitation really just is a formality as the choice has probably already been made (unofficially or not).

A388


User currently offlinetonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16648 times:

Can we ever see Azul expanding internationally in South American and possibly joining an alliance?

User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16610 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 9):
Is AV Brasil allowed to expand massively to better compete within the Brazilian market?

Yes, they can expand at will.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
where would they get the slots from at heavily constrained Brazilian airports?

You mean GRU, CGH and BSB? Well, they would get the slots in other airports.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16597 times:
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Quoting C010T3 (Reply 14):
You mean GRU, CGH and BSB? Well, they would get the slots in other airports.

Yes, but any expansion without GRU or CGH is pretty meaningless since Sao Paulo is the economic powerhouse of Brazil.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9779 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16562 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 14):
You mean GRU, CGH and BSB? Well, they would get the slots in other airports.

I remember seeing artist impressions of expansion plans for GRU and also remember this is connected to the World Cup and the Olympic Games coming to Brazil. How far along is this expansion? In any way, I assume this expansion will help GRU a lot.

A388


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16557 times:
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Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
What I remember from previous threads on this subjects, the only way the LAN/TAM merger would be approved by the authorities (I would assume in Brazil and/or Chile), was for the LAN/TAM group not being in the same alliance as the AV/TA/CM combination. Seeing that AV/TA will join Star and LAN being a OneWorld partner already, there really is no other alliance that TAM can join, other than the OneWorld Alliance.

While I never really saw that decision going any other way than OW ( even though as a diehard *A supporter I hoped for a miracle   ) AV/TA are not yet in *A. As AI and IT have already proved things can go off track before the official joining date.

In the extremely unlikely event that Senor Cueto phoned up LH and UA tomorrow and said "I would like LATAM to be in *A", I think you could pretty much guarantee that a way would be found to prevent TA/AV from joining. ( CM are not a problem as they were not mentioned in the decision since there is no overlap). Of course I think I have better odds of winning the lottery this weekend than of that phone call taking place, but hypothetically it could ( I certainly won't be holding my breath on it)



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16499 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 15):
Yes, but any expansion without GRU or CGH is pretty meaningless since Sao Paulo is the economic powerhouse of Brazil.

Well, it's not meaningless considering that SAO is not for Brazil what BUE is for Argentina. AV already has a presence at CGH and GRU. At GRU, they can grow as long it is a spoke of their network, not a hub.

Quoting A388 (Reply 16):
How far along is this expansion?

The concession auction was on Monday. Part of the planned expansion is expected before the 2014 World Cup.

Quoting A388 (Reply 16):
In any way, I assume this expansion will help GRU a lot.

Yes, indeed, but not as much as we would wish, since some hours of the day are already maxed out even for the runways.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8337 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16412 times:
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Quoting 744lover (Reply 7):
How would their airlines (TK, LH, TP, UA, etc...) get passengers from other parts of South America? JJ is the last *A in Brazil and dare I say South America..
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 8):
Then what is Avianca-Taca? Chopped liver ?

To Compare the biggest airline in Brazil to Avianca is like comparing a combined DL/UA in the USA and Air Canada. AV/Taca provide dominance in NW South America, a large region with a expanding economy but not the huge demand in the whole southern cone that GRU provides across the Atlantic. BOG to GRU is like comparing JFK to BWI. Copa needs to become part of AV/ Taca and use that Panama hub as its main airport.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 10):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
The only answer for Star and AV is to grow Avianca Brasil into the second international airline in Brazil.

At the risk of going OT, where would they get the slots from at heavily constrained Brazilian airports?

Buy Gol or Azul. HUB not at GRU but Viracopas.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5925 posts, RR: 40
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16339 times:

Quoting AAIL86 (Reply 4):
AV/TA does not help them much at all to the deep south and even AR now has a dance partner...

are you sure? AV/TA is serving all SouthAmerican countries with a lot of frequenzies so dont see your point that they can not help, dont see were AR is stronger...



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 16316 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 6):
With IAH interested in purchasing TAP

I presume you mean IAG and not IAH? What would be the chances of the EU allowing such a transaction going forward, virtually ceding a huge chunk of Europe - South American traffic to Oneworld alone? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks and rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3699 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16262 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 19):
Buy Gol or Azul. HUB not at GRU but Viracopas.

Azul's hub is Viracopos. Gol has multiple hubs, but VCP is not one of them. In fact, Gol offers only 11 daily departures from VCP, while Azul offers 127.


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16244 times:

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 6):
With IAH interested in purchasing TAP

Now that JK is gone I doubt LH would let TP go easily...


User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5068 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 15571 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 2):


This may be the first move of a big "war" between the three alliances.

I think the first move in the alliance "war" was Delta attempting to poach JAL from oneworld.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
25 realsim : At least for now, the European Comission has looked at market concentration either from a domestic point of view of a given country (example: Olympic
26 SA7700 : With all due respect, TP is not in Oneworld - why should it be part of a Oneworld ATI/JV? Rgds SA7700
27 SKY1 : But LAN is not going to leave oneworld. It's nearly sure that LA will remain in OW and TA/AV have already a foot inside *A ...there are similar cases
28 SJOtoLIR : Are you sure with this statement? AV/TA has two hubs in Bogota and Lima with non-stop flights to SCL, ASU, EZE, MVD, GRU, GIG, POA, BSB and so forth.
29 jonathanxxxx : Well, yes. Although truthfully they're shadowed completely by a combination of LAN & TAM. With all of LAN's subsidiaries they just overshadow AV-
30 SJOtoLIR : Agreed. However, we have to take into account that LATAM and AV-TA will be on different global alliances. The mentioned arrangement on AV-TA is the b
31 Post contains images RAGAZZO777 : Exactly. Just look at LAN's latest move at JFK. Besides, everybody knows that LAN is 'buying' TAM, not the other way around. When TAM exits Star Alli
32 LipeGIG : They can't do anything. This is fact. JJ and G3 controls around 80% of Brazilian market and are the ones that fly abroad.And both are on other allian
33 kiramakora : Irrelevant. The market of Brazil is more important than all the other Latin countries and it is something we must set our national prejudice and acce
34 Post contains images AirbusA6 : The reason I mentioned it, is that Willie Walsh has mentioned TAP several times as an airline he'd be interested in purchasing, The other airline he
35 Post contains images AAIL86 : Yes. I wasn't trying to bash AV/TA at all, but when you add it up- the geographic location, market share, route networks, it becomes obvious quickly
36 777jaah : That's why they ordered 10 A350, to support growth. If they launch at least 3-4 US destinations (MIA, JFK, LAX), 4-5 european (MAD, LHR, CDG, FRA and
37 jfk777 : It will take 20 A350's to reach all those cities daily from GRU. Never mind any Rio flights. IF Avianca Brasil is going to be a TAM equal, it needs 1
38 777jaah : My doubt is not about having the frames, Airbus will gladly sell them. My problem is more focused on filling them....
39 tu154 : AA is sooooo desperate right now. As is OneWorld. What a joke AA
40 LipeGIG : Are they able to manage on such airports.... good slots ? There are no frequencies available for EZE for example. MIA, FCO, CDG, MAD and LHR as Star
41 SJOtoLIR : The coverage of TAM-LAN is by far better than the system offered by AV-TA, in terms for the intended interests of Star Alliance in South America. Nob
42 realsim : I think Star Alliance doesn't need that Avianca Brazil becomes as big as TAM or GOL. Of course, the best would be to be the dominant player in the cou
43 AAIL86 : I was attempting to be funny, hence the wink. Yes, AR's network is very poor in relation to what it could be. I always raise an eyebrow when I am in
44 C010T3 : You're thinking as a foreigner wanting to visit the country, but you have to consider that the Star Alliance is fighting for the loyalty of Brazilian
45 GSTBA : I love this comment. What and *A signing up Avianca - TACA and COPA so soon after LAN & TAM making there announcement did'n't look desperate. AA
46 jfk777 : Which why they basically gave Avianca/TACA anything they wanted to join Star. Star basically conceded the southern cone of Latin America to OW and go
47 aircanada014 : LATAM can't not be in two seperate alliances it has nothing to do with AV/TA/CM being in the alliance. meaning TAM can't stay in Star Alliance while
48 kiwiandrew : As a condition of approving the takeover the Chilean authorities said that LATAM could not be part of the same alliance as AV/TA. ( perfectly underst
49 SJOtoLIR : I think that their common center of operations in both Lima and Bogota is a fact against that possibility on [AV-TA] and LATAM. Regards.
50 VC10er : I am sure that United has been and is while we write, planning their attack for Brazil and Argentina. I would be shocked if they aren't currently plan
51 jfk777 : United is flying to EZE from Houston and Newark(moved from IAD). GRU is flown from IAH, ORD, IAD and Newark, AA doesn't fly to BA from four cities. B
52 VC10er : Gee! I didn't realize how many GRU flights there were. I had presumed just 2, but I forgot to count IAD and ORD. duh! What is your opinion is your op
53 EddieDude : CA flies to GRU via MAD from PEK. Not sure about the number of frequencies per week though. OZ does not fly to Brazil, but its fellow South Korean ai
54 airbazar : Pretty much. I have no idea who they are and I'm on this web site? How many cities in Europe and the US do they serve? Here's what I think: TAP's sto
55 EddieDude : U.S.A.: SFO, LAX, ORD, IAH, DFW, JFK, IAD, MCO, FLL and MIA (plus YYZ in Canada). Europe: MAD and BCN.
56 LPSHobby : when will TAM replace these 767s ?
57 RAGAZZO777 : Just to give you an idea: AV-TA serve more cities in the US than TAM does.
58 RCS763AV : Well this is IMO a bold move by AA. They have JJ almost in the sack but they still need to do whatever is possible so that they don't get snatched by
59 skyhigh : First of all I am a oneworld member so I am thrilled that JJ's move into the alliance is now one step closer. Is it normal for an official invitation
60 SJOtoLIR : Another advantage is the amount of airports where these non-stop flights are departing towards the US: Avianca/Taca SFO: [SAL] LAX: [SAL, GUA, SJO] O
61 744lover : Right... But thinking in a hub-to-hub perspective, how is TP going to distribute their passangers from Europe to cities like: IGU, RAO, CGR, CWB, JPS
62 airbazar : Interesting. I had no idea. Again, I never bothered to look up this airline. We learn things every day. Thanks. I suspect that those are tiny markets
63 BOACCunard : Wait, you're serious? You've been on this site for over 8 years and you've never heard of Avianca and TACA?!
64 airbazar : I've seen the name mentioned but never bothered to lookup who they are or where they're from and where they operate to. I honestly had no idea that t
65 staralliance85 : AA is sooooo desperate right now. As is OneWorld. What a joke AA Yes OneWorld is in shambles right now! If I were LANTAM I would be looking at all my
66 jfk777 : AA will be much stronger when it comes out of Bankruptcy, its still buying new 737-800 and 777-300ER's too. It went in Chapter 11 without Debtor in p
67 staralliance85 : Malev's situation is lousy but it was just a small regional airline, it stopped flying 767 to JFK which were loosing tons of money. OW still has 3 he
68 PezySPU : AA is in Chapter 11 not because they are broke, but because they want to avoid being broke. MA, as mentioned already, was only a small regional airli
69 Post contains images airbazar : Not exactly. They filed for Ch11 because they couldn't pay their debt. That's the definition of "being broke"
70 Post contains images PezySPU : Well, he didn't define being broke, so I assumed it meant running out of cash. And I still can't figure out how you didn't know about AV-TA until now
71 EddieDude : Not exactly. AA flied for judicial protection from creditors under Chapter 11 because the size of their liabilities was such, that in the medium and
72 Rafabozzolla : It has been mentioned before but I'll stress it... It's about strategy. It makes much more sense for LATAM to have partners with hubs in Miami and Mad
73 BOACCunard : I don't really understand why there is even debate about whether or not TAM will stay in Star. Have the competition authorities not insisted that as a
74 jfk777 : TAP is going to be the big Star airline in Brazil for travel to Europe. Avianca /Taca will provide the Star alliance with links to Europe from the Col
75 RAGAZZO777 : Not to mention that Lufthansa currently flies to GRU, GIG, BOG, EZE and CCS and that there's the strong possibility that it may resume its own flight
76 mikey72 : Face it guys, Oneworld is the option that makes the most sense for Latam. As for Oneworld itself things couldn't be better. The best thing that could
77 jfk777 : The BMI merger is the only way to deliver the huge amount of slots at LHR BA has been dreaming of since Virginarrived at LHR in 1991.
78 SJOtoLIR : Absolutely ! "One measure also prohibits LATAM from being a member of two global alliances and from being in the same global alliance as Avianca-TACA
79 Post contains links and images acontador : Just to be exact, the last flight departed GRU (and turned back later that same day) on March 28, 2009. View Large View MediumPhoto © Andrés Contad
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