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Finnair In Red, Plans For Privatization  
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12456 times:

Hello,

Finnair has announced a loss of roughly 30m euros for last year. The airline wants to outsource all or parts of it European operations, which according to the airline are bleeding badly. They are seeking a partner to take over this part of their operations so that Finnair could concentrate on long haul flights only.

Also, the Finnish government has announced they are ready to sell Finnair, as long as good connections to other countries can be guaranteed from Finland.

http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2012/02/f..._for_european_flights_3245686.html

http://yle.fi/uutiset/talous_ja_poli...in_enemmistoosuudesta_3246803.html (in Finnish only, sorry!)

My question is, who could be the partner to take over the European flights? Also, if Finnair is to be sold, who would be interested in buying it?

okAY

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTruemanQLD From Australia, joined Feb 2007, 1528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12427 times:

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):
My question is, who could be the partner to take over the European flights? Also, if Finnair is to be sold, who would be interested in buying it?

IAG? Is a OneWorld airline already so would seem like a good fit to me, but don't know all that much about Finnair operations and management etc.


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12373 times:

It would be a big boost for IAG's presence in Asia. However, bmi, Finnair and possibly TAP would be a lot to take on at once.

User currently offlineAAExecplat From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 635 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12340 times:

It is amazing to watch this industry consolidate the way it is. In Europe we are now hurtling towards just three major airline groups...LH, IAG, and AF/KL. I suspect those who are still not in one of these groups will be in them within the next 5 years.

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6576 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12288 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Based on the Thread Title - i was expecting a special livery.. 


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5435 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12236 times:

Quoting AAExecplat (Reply 3):


While not on the same scale as the big three, might there not be room for consolidation of the Nordic airlines?



What the...?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12237 times:

Quoting okAY (Thread starter):
They are seeking a partner to take over this part of their operations so that Finnair could concentrate on long haul flights only.

Isn't a lot of their long haul passengers connecting passengers from/to the European network? Will they be able to keep passenger loads if they do not have operational control throughout?


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12148 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Isn't a lot of their long haul passengers connecting passengers from/to the European network? Will they be able to keep passenger loads if they do not have operational control throughout?

I don't think it's much of a problem. They are seeking a *partner*, means that cooperation between the two would exist. For the reasons you mentioned, that would benefit both. Actually, it would be disastrous for AY if it got rid of its European feed. I doubt O&D alone between Finland and Asia is high enough to keep those flights viable.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12066 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 2):
It would be a big boost for IAG's presence in Asia

How? BA flies to most of those places more often than AY does.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
might there not be room for consolidation of the Nordic airlines?

Do state owned Nordic carriers lose loads of money? Do bears cr@p in the woods? 
Quoting AAExecplat (Reply 3):
It is amazing to watch this industry consolidate the way it is.

Welcome to a decade ago in the US.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 11999 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 8):
How? BA flies to most of those places more often than AY does.

BA doesn't fly to Seoul or Chongqing and Asia (beyond India, Singapore and Hong Kong) is a difficult market for BA, partly because its position in Western Europe limits scope to attract connecting traffic. AY is in the right place to grow its network and the marketing/distribution strength of IAG would reinforce this further.


User currently offlineaffirmative From France, joined Jul 2009, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11822 times:

I don't remember if it's Norwegian that has a stake in Finnair or the other way around. I wouldn't be too surprised if Norwegian increased it's operations in Finland basically forcing Finnairs short/medium haul network to collapse and at the same time putting further pressure on SAS..


I love the smell of Jet-A1 in the morning...
User currently offlinehelfan From Finland, joined Aug 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11629 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 10):
I don't remember if it's Norwegian that has a stake in Finnair or the other way around. I wouldn't be too surprised if Norwegian increased it's operations in Finland basically forcing Finnairs short/medium haul network to collapse and at the same time putting further pressure on SAS..

I was automatically thinking of Norwegian too since Finnair owns 10% stake of it. One would be tempted to think whether there is a connection btw Norwegian's recent giant order of new a/c's and this.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8337 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11608 times:

Buying Finnair would give IAG a great hub to Asia in Europe's NE and to compete with the Gulf Airlines with quicker polar routing to the Far East. One issue is can new owner stop making the Russians rich because Finnair pays a rumored 3 or 4 hundred millon Euros in overflight fees. Finnair would also keep a good airline in OW.

User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1898 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11594 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 2):
possibly TAP

IAG is looking at TAP?    They are in Star and IAG is well represented on the Iberian peninsula with IB. Maybe for Brazil routes, which maybe covered by LATAM?

Back on topic, IAG, or AF/KLM, seem to me the best fit for Finnair in a huge airline group. LH group is in scandinavia with SAS and have their long haul routes doing pretty well. With state-owned airlines seeming to be on the decline, is this the beginning of the end for Finnair?



Go coogs! \n//
User currently offlinehelfan From Finland, joined Aug 2011, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11590 times:

Finnish mtv3 channel just speculated that Air Berlin would be the new strategic partner for Finnair. Makes sense, since AB lacks Asian connections, Furthermore they already codeshare flights from Finland to Germany

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8337 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11563 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 13):
IAG is looking at TAP? They are in Star and IAG is well represented on the Iberian peninsula with IB. Maybe for Brazil routes, which maybe covered by LATAM?

TAM does NOT fly to Portugal , they code-share with TAP on those flights. Whatever takes over TAP will own the Brazil to Lisbon market.


User currently onlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11556 times:

Quoting affirmative (Reply 10):
I don't remember if it's Norwegian that has a stake in Finnair or the other way around. I wouldn't be too surprised if Norwegian increased it's operations in Finland basically forcing Finnairs short/medium haul network to collapse and at the same time putting further pressure on SAS..
Quoting helfan (Reply 11):
I was automatically thinking of Norwegian too since Finnair owns 10% stake of it. One would be tempted to think whether there is a connection btw Norwegian's recent giant order of new a/c's and this.

Finnair had only 4.8 % stake in Norwegian DY. I don' t know if they still have it ...


User currently offlineblr380 From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11509 times:

Hmm....makes me wonder where is OneWorld heading to. AA is trying to restructure, IT situation - less said the better, and now Finnair trying to find a buyer. I guess it will be mostly IAG + AA in the years to come looking at how things are shaping up in this alliance.

User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11460 times:

So far AY has not announced who could be the partner to do the European flights for them. They have, however, ruled out three candidates: SK, FlyBe and DY. Concerning SK the CEO of AY said, you do not make a tiger by putting together two elephants... haa haa  

It can also be a totally new venture, where AY creates a new company with someone, like they did with FlyBe.

The fact that the government announces all of a sudden plans to sell Finnair, something that I do not recall ever being mentioned from the government's side, quite the opposite, tells that someone is interested and AY has gone knocking on the door of the minister saying "set us free before you have no airline"... Just my two cents...

okAY


User currently offlineLHRFlyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2010, 815 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11457 times:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 13):
IAG is looking at TAP? They are in Star and IAG is well represented on the Iberian peninsula with IB. Maybe for Brazil routes, which maybe covered by LATAM?

Back on topic, IAG, or AF/KLM, seem to me the best fit for Finnair in a huge airline group

Yes, Willie Walsh is on the record that IAG will look at TAP when/if the privatisation process starts. I think AF-KLM is too indebted to buy anybody at the moment and needs to get its house inorder.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11348 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 9):
BA doesn't fly to Seoul or Chongqing and Asia (beyond India, Singapore and Hong Kong) is a difficult market for BA,

Between BA/CX/JL I really don't see what value AY provides, and that may be the bigger problem here.

Quoting helfan (Reply 14):
Finnish mtv3 channel just speculated that Air Berlin would be the new strategic partner for Finnair.

Drunks holding each other up?

Quoting helfan (Reply 14):
Makes sense, since AB lacks Asian connections, Furthermore they already codeshare flights from Finland to Germany

AB has code all over BA's flights to LHR, as well as recently JL, plus plenty of leisure flights to Asia



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently onlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7468 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11316 times:

Quoting LHRFlyer (Reply 19):
Yes, Willie Walsh is on the record that IAG will look at TAP

Walsh has twice publicly expressed an interest in TP. This was the first time:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...ish-airways-iberia-times-says.html

When IAG was formed and Walsh was appointed its CEO, he said that his main objective would be to build the group and that he had a list of 10 airlines he was looking at. The only two he has mentioned publicly are BD and TP. Was AY on that list?

As an aside BA leased AY DC-9s to operate LHR-HEL-LHR (BA772/73) in November and December 1977. The aircraft were flown by AY flight crew but the cabin crew were BA staff. These flights were part of an evaluation process to find a replacement for BA's HS Tridents.


User currently offlinePezySPU From Croatia, joined Dec 2011, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 11229 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 20):
Quoting helfan (Reply 14):
Makes sense, since AB lacks Asian connections, Furthermore they already codeshare flights from Finland to Germany

AB has code all over BA's flights to LHR, as well as recently JL, plus plenty of leisure flights to Asia

And now that EY holds a stake in them, do they really need to invest in AY? I don't think so...


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17439 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11200 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 22):
And now that EY holds a stake in them, do they really need to invest in AY? I don't think so...

You're right; there's that too. Ugh. Mess.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineokAY From Finland, joined Dec 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 11100 times:

Quoting PezySPU (Reply 22):

According to the CEO of AY in an interview he gave to Suomen Kuvalehti, the airline has gotten a lot of contacts from different instances, expressing their interest towards a joint venture with AY. The interest has been so great the airline is a little surprised by it and is now thinking of setting up a bidding situation to have the best option.

The article also says that decisions need to be made soon, in the following weeks.

http://suomenkuvalehti.fi/jutut/talo...nnairille-jaisi-vain-kaukoliikenne

okAY


25 mogandoCI : Finnair in red and Blue1 folding back into SAS.... what the HEL[Edited 2012-02-09 10:47:24]
26 Post contains links HELyes : AY press release: http://www.finnairgroup.com/en/index.html# Today their GEO said they are expecting to find the new short haul partner in a few month
27 PezySPU : That's great for AY, but I doubt AB can afford it. Plus, I don't think EY would be happy about it... I'd say IAG is a lot more likely.
28 airbazar : Maybe but I don't see TK in any of those groups. Why stop at LIS? Whoever buys TAP will own S.America-Europe market. The only reason IAG hasn't bough
29 jfk777 : Iberia owns the Europe to Latin Market. TAP owns the Brazil to Portugal market, TAP has a unique franchise.
30 HELyes : AB had been mentioned as a possible new partner for AY in the European traffic. The possible privatizing is a separate question at this point.
31 PezySPU : Ahh, now it's more clear. I thought you were talking only about privatization all the time.
32 spud757 : BE to expand the JV with AY. BE to operate the European network ex-HEL into regional airports across the UK and continental Europe providing the feed
33 einsteinboricua : Is there a possiblity for SAS to incorporate Finnair into their system, thereby establishing a Nordic Air System?
34 Boeing773ER : I don't see how AB could possibly afford to take on Finnair because AB is bleeding through cash themselves. I don't see IAG buying Finnair at this tim
35 SuperCaravelle : Considering SkyTeam has quite a strong presence in Asia already with the different Chinese and Taiwanese airlines and of course KE, I cannot see AF/KL
36 jfk777 : TP & IB really overlap very little except for Caracas, Rio and Sao Paulo. TP's franchise is from 8 Brazilain cities to Portugal. They don't fly t
37 SuperCaravelle : The individual carriers don't overlap much, I agree. But for alliance strategy, I don't think TP is really the first thing OneWorld wants. They have
38 sailas : how about looking at this from an asian perspective...Why wouldnt CX be interested? Just a thought but imagine if Qantas bought Finnair. Could be viab
39 HELyes : Hardly... SK have their own long lasting financial and structural problems, not a long ago LH was expected to buy it. In theory we could see some syn
40 EI2KSEA : EI is still hanging around in the shadows also, it doesn't have the unique selling points of TP (the Brazil network) or AY (solid Asia network) but i
41 AvroArrow : Sadly enough 30M euros loss isn't all that bad these days. I would have thought that the flyBE Nordic programme would have taken care of the short hau
42 HELyes : FlyBe Nordic serves the regional routes inside the Nordic region with turboprops mainly, doing a good job there but AY also needs a partner with heav
43 bevisisback : The phrase 'collasping like a flan in a cupboard' comes to mind.... AA, AY, MA, MX.....who next?
44 Post contains images HELyes : Sorry I have to kill the drama AY is not in bankruptcy. They are looking for an new partner and Finnish government is considering giving up its major
45 bevisisback : No, your right, they are not bankrupt....they must be struggling though.
46 Post contains images teme82 : It will be most interesting share holders meeting in this spring
47 Post contains links and images VV701 : Regretably a not uncommon malaise these days. For example check out the logos on this photo of a soon-to-be BA (oneworld) 320 that was taken just the
48 jfk777 : With AA, LAN, TAM and IB OW doesn't have a problem in Latin America and does well from Brazil to the USA. IT does well from well from from Rio and Sa
49 airbazar : There is some overlap. Lets not ignore code-sharing and interline. TP has been slowly penetrating those markets, as they did for MIA. They code-share
50 AirlineCritic : Please read the articles. Finnair is not bleeding that badly. They are doing great on their long-haul side, and still have a superb strategy on that f
51 YULQC : Just verified and yes Finnais still has 4,77%, not very much! But it would be IMHO a very good idea to partner up with them!
52 jfk777 : Willie Walsh, where are you ? Finland is calling you and you are on vacation. Buy Finnair, expand IAG with their third airline. Own the Emirates of th
53 jfk777 : Willie Walsh, where are you ? Finland is calling you and you are on vacation. Buy Finnair, expand IAG with their third airline. Own the Emirates of th
54 nasco2 : Way should the partner not be Norwegian ? This is a win / win situations, Norwegian is already building up a base in HEL, and wants to fly to most of
55 r2rho : Woah woah, don't get all excited so fast! - First of all, losing 30million during an economic crisis is no big deal and nothing to worry about, AY is
56 HELyes : AY and Norwegian were in talks already, before Flybe Nordic was born but it didn't work out, dont know why. Pity, together they could be really stron
57 PezySPU : I'm not sure if AY is looking for an LCC for the JV. They are looking for someone that can provide feed, but with lower costs than AY can themselves,
58 nasco2 : As far as I know the Norwegian booking system did not speak the same computer language that Finnair booking system did. So more or less a practical p
59 nasco2 : Norwegian have the latest boeing 737-800 with sky interior, and free Internet. The cabin is the best of all in Europe. I was flying them from Bergen
60 HELyes : Yes you are right, I remember that now. It's also possible DY themselves wouldn't be interested at tthis point. Their new 738 is really nice. DY have
61 Lufthansa747 : DY uses amadeus so i don't see a problem there. But DY with their recent order will wipe the floor with dinosaur SAS and finnair as well. QR starting
62 VV701 : I think it depends upon what one means by "low-cost airline". In my mind I have the image of a an LCC as strictly offering an O&D service. Of cou
63 mikey72 : Mmm..a bit like AFKL. Well, AF is broke and LH has got its probing little fingers stuck in way too many pies as it is so I think we can rule out any
64 jfk777 : Finnair has a great operation to Asia with efficient A330-300's. But to America its really a one trick pony, JFK is about it. Why not fly to Boston, W
65 sailas : AA does fly from Chicago to HEL. Well they used to last year...now they decided to fly the route seasonal. I think in the 80's AY flew to Los angeles
66 teme82 : By judging the amount of Russian registered mini-buses around HEL each day I would say that the numbers are good. Anyways in the news the Finnish For
67 helfan : I think it is already commonplace, that substantial proportion of passengers on AY's HEL-JFK route are Russians transferring at Helsinki-Vantaa
68 Post contains links and images FatmirJusufi : Ditto! This unusual thought came into my mind. Source View Large View MediumPhoto © Paul Spijkers —
69 sailas : Its still a longshot to be specultaing that right now. In the future yes, i can see Russians using HEL more often (allegro to 6 times a day), but at t
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