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Latest F9 Cut: BOS  
User currently offlineJoePatroniYX From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8442 times:

Although Frontier had originally planned to add one BOS-MKE frequency starting April 16th, this is no longer the case. Although this isn't much of a surprise, considering the pull down of MKE recently, it only leaves BOS connected to the network with one thru flight: BOS-MCI-DEN. I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver. Instead, Frontier seems to be pinning its future on backwater towns in the middle of nowhere, where yes there is little to no competition, but also a limited market. A major east coast city like Boston, with a high percentage of business traffic seems like it should be a part of any airline's network. I hope Frontier doesn't end service to Boston completely for a second time. How about adding other cities from Boston? Like OMA or STL?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4320 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8359 times:
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The unintended consequence is that with the freeing up of that one gate, moving UA into the B Concourse and staying on the USAirways side might now be possible.

However I do wish F9 great luck with their newly announced stations


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25563 posts, RR: 86
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8294 times:
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Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver.

Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I hope Frontier doesn't end service to Boston completely for a second time.

You can blame Massport for that first departure. When terminal A was being remodeled after 9/11 and Frontier needed a gate, Massport told the airline to pound sand - that there were plenty of gates at MHT and PVD.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineJoePatroniYX From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8241 times:

I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25563 posts, RR: 86
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8176 times:
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Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.


There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3245 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8036 times:

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
it only leaves BOS connected to the network with one thru flight: BOS-MCI-DEN

For the sake of curiosity I priced F9 DEN-MCI-BOS flight outbound on May 8 returning the following Monday At a whopping round-trip price of $842.00 I suspect this won't last to long either. Who can afford it.

AA has the round-trip priced on the same days at $207.00 with all fees/taxes via DFW. Both B6 and WN are pricing at $440-ish B6 departure is a reverse red-eye departing BOS around 11:30 PM My use of reverse red-eye indicates a East to West flight vice a West to East flight which would normally take advantage of the time zone changes by departing late and arriving early.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8011 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 5):
For the sake of curiosity I priced F9 DEN-MCI-BOS flight outbound on May 8 returning the following Monday At a whopping round-trip price of $842.00 I suspect this won't last to long either. Who can afford it.

Do you think F9's intent is to actually carry pax DEN-MCI-BOS? It may be a thru-flight but I'd think the MCI-BOS segment relies on o&d between the two cities.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3245 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7865 times:

Quoting Kcrwflyer (Reply 6):

F9 MCI-BOS on the same metal; flight 815 outbound and #820 on the return using the same dates May 9 and May 14 prices for $479.60

The other service I found was AA and a AA/US combo via ORD for $297.20 and $307.20. CO also offers service between the two airports via IAH and ORD which came in less. Surprisingly I didn't anything via EWR. I suppose this is a post merger thing.

One of AA flights to between MCI-ORD was on a E145. Given F9 flight is non-stop on the MCI-BOS segment I'm not convinced their price of $479.60 is justified O&D or otherwise.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7758 times:

I don't know if I would call BOS-DEN a long and thin route. There is a solid demand between Boston and Denver.

What is the schedule like for BOS-MCI?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25563 posts, RR: 86
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 7720 times:
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Quoting MAV88 (Reply 8):
I don't know if I would call BOS-DEN a long and thin route. There is a solid demand between Boston and Denver.

It is certainly long - at least in Frontier terms - and with three airlines already on the route it becomes thin for others. Demand on any route is finite.

Mostly, I am not sure why every US airline has to fly everywhere, even when "there" is already very well served.

In fact, Frontier is the 4th airline on the route. Until April it is flying a 1 x weekly repo - bookable - DEN-BOS for the Apple Vacations flights on the week-ends from BOS.

mariner

[Edited 2012-02-12 11:23:52]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8576 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7357 times:

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Thread starter):
I know BOS-DEN has competition with WN, B6, and UA all flying the route, but it seems hard to believe there is no money to be made connecting people from BOS to not only DEN but to other cities on the west coast beyond Denver.

I'm surprised too, especially since DEN is a F9 hub, supposedly F9 has a strong Denver customer base, and they had time to establish the route before B6 and WN joined in.

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?

IIRC, F9 was the second carrier to serve this route, not 4th. They were flying it before B6 and WN started the route.


User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7131 times:

Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.

BOS is B6's second-largest hub and a third of all pax here is business, so that is how they make it work. F9 and WN are LCCs who get more leisure pax, and there aren't too many places beyond DEN that they connect to that either UA also serves or B6 flies non-stop from BOS.



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User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25563 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7093 times:
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Quoting airbazar (Reply 10):
IIRC, F9 was the second carrier to serve this route, not 4th. They were flying it before B6 and WN started the route.

See post #2 - Massport wouldn't give Frontier a gate but told them to go to MHT or PVD:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
You can blame Massport for that first departure. When terminal A was being remodeled after 9/11 and Frontier needed a gate, Massport told the airline to pound sand - that there were plenty of gates at MHT and PVD.

Business had fallen off a cliff after 9/11 and Frontier couldn't afford what US Airways wanted for use of a gate. So it left.

I believe that airlines should fly (a) where they are welcome and (b) where can make money.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBobLoblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 6094 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service. While there is benefit to being a "first mover" F9 would have better connecting opportunities than B6 could ever hope for and F9 would do much better with the DEN passengers point of sale


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4102 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?
Quoting mariner (Reply 9):
Mostly, I am not sure why every US airline has to fly everywhere, even when "there" is already very well served.

I don't think I would lump BOS in with just any other markets. It's a major market. Maybe if we were just talking about DEN-BOS O&D...but we are taking into consideration the feed from nearly the entire F9 network. One wouldn't think it would be a problem filling one stinkin' flight, even if it were only a 319.


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5778 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
One wouldn't think it would be a problem filling one stinkin' flight, even if it were only a 319.


But why does F9 need BOS if B6, UA and WN already fly DEN-BOS? Why does F9 need to fly one A319 a day from DEN when they could fly a couple round trips to a closer destination with less competition? F9 cannot be all things to all people. Not every airline needs to serve every destination.

F9 doesn't feel the need to fly DEN to SJC, CLT, RDU, BHM, MIA, MEM, PIT, CVG, BUF, SYR, JAX, PBI, EWR, BWI and the list goes on and on. I get more excited to see out of the box thinking (GTF, BLI, BMI, CID, PHF, PUJ).


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25563 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5735 times:
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Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 13):
The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service. While there is benefit to being a "first mover" F9 would have better connecting opportunities than B6 could ever hope for and F9 would do much better with the DEN passengers point of sale

Thanks 9/11 - and Massport.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 14):
I don't think I would lump BOS in with just any other markets.

I don't see anyone chucking a mental because Allegiant doesn't serve BOS. And "major market" it may be, but some of the January loads MKE-BOS on the other airline have been pretty frightening.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5675 times:

I am confused...The topic states F9 is dropping BOS as a station right? Ie the "Latest F9 Cut:BOS"?

Otherwise, all of the posts I am reading and checking says F9 still operates BOS-MCI, so BOS is NOT getting cut?

What's happening is that F9 is simply reducing BOS, and cutting BOS-MKE, but still keeping the station? The title needs to clarify it's just MKE-BOS and not BOS as a station.

On the outside, ya it is surprising F9 doesn't fly BOS-DEN, but that doesn't mean F9 needs to or it would make F9 money. The network overall though should say that BOS-DEN-XXX would be great for Frontier, but it seems clear that F9 doesn't think they can penetrate and make it work and is happy to let the other carriers fly it themselves.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4102 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5358 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
But why does F9 need BOS if B6, UA and WN already fly DEN-BOS? Why does F9 need to fly one A319 a day from DEN when they could fly a couple round trips to a closer destination with less competition? F9 cannot be all things to all people. Not every airline needs to serve every destination.

Like I said already, it's not so much about DEN-BOS the leg, but F9 network-BOS. It's simply excluding anyone wanting to fly to BOS from even flying on F9. Seems counterproductive especially seeing that MKE has been a disaster and MCI hasn't knocked anyone's socks off.

Quoting mariner (Reply 16):
I don't see anyone chucking a mental because Allegiant doesn't serve BOS. And "major market" it may be, but some of the January loads MKE-BOS on the other airline have been pretty frightening.

What about the DEN-BOS loads? I sort of want to avoid any statistic involving MKE because it's just a godawful mess right now. I have this feeling that F9 would be better off pulling nearly completely out of MKE save a handful of routes.


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 18):
It's simply excluding anyone wanting to fly to BOS from even flying on F9.

I understand that, of course, but I can only repeat that F9 does not need to be all things to all people. There are other markets that WN doesn't fly to that F9 does. Does that exclude anyone wanting to fly to SBA from even flying on WN? Gas prices have risen 20 cents in 3 weeks. The news just reported it could go up another 60 cents by Memorial Day. It is expected to be the highest ever this summer. F9 does not need to burn fuel on such a long, thin, overly competitve route such as DEN-BOS.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2766 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
But why does F9 need BOS
Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
but that doesn't mean F9 needs to or it would make F9 money

I would assume that as long as F9 has the Apple Vacations flights between BOS-CUN/PUJ, then there will probably be the need to fly into and out of BOS for that simple reason of having the aircraft available for the above flights. Even if it's once or twice weekly and seasonally, F9 might as well attempt to sell that seats on the planes between the city the aircraft is in and BOS that do the re-positioning flights, correct? Anything after that, well, if F9 feels that this is the best for them making them as much $$$ as they can, then do it.... if not... then find another place to use the planes.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
F9 is simply reducing BOS, and cutting BOS-MKE, but still keeping the station?

I would imagine that as long as the Apple Vacation flights happen there, then BOS is a station.

Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
BUF,
Quoting gustywinds (Reply 15):
PBI,


and along with RIC, these three stations, per DOT numbers, are the three biggest stations that do not have n/s DEN service, and all three of them could pretty much fill an A319 both to and from, at least daily, and probably in most of the months of the year. Add to that ALB, a Florida peninsula station like ECP or PNS, and maybe a Carolina station like GSO or CAE, or a resort destination in that area like MYR or SAV, and the route map could be quite strong. And I would think that a number of these would have incentives (something F9 likes and I don't blame them) and with that we're off.

And now, after all that, I don't think that too much is going to be happening until whatever transaction RAH will want for F9 has happened.


 


User currently offlineKcrwflyer From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3845 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5250 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
Who wants to be the fourth airline on a long thin route like DEN=BOS with fuel at these prices?
Quoting JoePatroniYX (Reply 3):
I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work.
Quoting mariner (Reply 4):
There are three airlines flying DEN-BOS. Frontier would be the fourth on the route.

This debate of being "fourth" is all about the numerical order in which an airline started service. Which I thought mariner clarified.

Quoting BobLoblaw (Reply 13):
The 4th doesnt necessairly mean the order in which they started service.

Yes! That's all it means in the context of this conversation. If there are three airlines flying a route, and another adds service, that airline is now the fourth on that route.


User currently offlinegustywinds From Armenia, joined Feb 2012, 143 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5044 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
I would assume that as long as F9 has the Apple Vacations flights between BOS-CUN/PUJ, then there will probably be the need to fly into and out of BOS for that simple reason of having the aircraft available for the above flights.
F9 certainly doesn't have to have a station in BOS because of the Apple flying there, but I'm glad they do. I like the one flight a week from DEN to BOS, but the loads are hit or miss. F9 flies Apple stuff out of CVG, ORD & BWI, for example, and they don't have scheduled service to those airports. I believe ORD repos from MDW. BWI repos from PHL, And CVG repos from CAK. F9 even operates an aircraft from ORD to STL which continues STL to LIR. However, you cannot buy tickets on the ORD - STL leg but you can buy a ticket ORD - LIR with the STL stop.

I like your wish list of markets. These are the opportunities that F9 will be best to take advantage of.

[Edited 2012-02-12 17:13:29]

[Edited 2012-02-12 17:14:23]

User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3598 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4900 times:

"I would argue that JetBlue would be the "fourth" airline on a long thin route like BOS-DEN since they have no connecting opportunities in DEN. Yet somehow they make it work."

I think DEN is a mess for B6. Token redeye to JFK and token redeye and day flight to BOS just to take a stand against WN when they entered the market.


User currently offlinejcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

Well the Apple Vacations flying ends April 29th for BOS and I don't know if they got the contract next winter. It was previously flown by AirTran for 2 years.

25 mariner : Sure. But Frontier's contract with Apple is for seven years and the Frontier CEO expects the Apple flying to "nearly double" next winter. I don't kno
26 HermansCVR580 : Ok Frontier you had your chance to poop now its time to get off the pot in MKE it did not work for you that is ok, but its time to go now spread your
27 mariner : What an extraordinary attitude. If Frontier can make money flying ten or six, or three or four routes from MKE, or two or three - or even just one -
28 HermansCVR580 : I think by now Frontier should know which cities they are making money from at MKE and which ones they are not making money on. It just gets a bit old
29 mariner : And you don't think competitive circumstances change? You don't think that what Southwest is doing - or Delta - changes anything? Nor the price of fu
30 mke717spotter : It varies throughout the week, but usually FL has up to 4 Apple flights a day from MKE. How does this frequency compare to the stations that F9 is op
31 mariner : Hmmm? Frontier doesn't direct the Apple scheduling - Apple does. Frontier - and Airtran - just fly where Apple tells 'em to go. As in any charter - w
32 Post contains images HermansCVR580 : Southwest has not made any major moves in MKE as of recently???? Unless you know something we don't mariner??? Yeah they are picking up some of the Ai
33 mke717spotter : I guess what I meant to ask was whether or not F9 has enough equipment laying around to do all this extra flying, or if they're going to have to make
34 mariner : As one example, a year ago - six months ago - it was widely believed, and not just on a.net, that Southwest would quickly transfer the MKE DCA/LGA sl
35 mariner : I've no idea. I know there's slack in the fleet at the moment - that the summer schedule is not yet final - and that at least a couple more A320 are
36 mikefrommke : I was wondering about that. I was kind of hoping they'd let the ORD-STL be bookable and have some fun. Now that it looks like their won't be any true
37 mke717spotter : Well, at the moment I think all that remains of the Airbus service is MKE-DEN, so if they decide to pick up FL's chartered flying next winter then I
38 mariner : Yeh, maybe. I just don't know. I don't know what sort of contract Airtran has for it - single year? multi year? - and I don't know what Southwest's a
39 ScottB : This is a bit sad when you consider that MKE-BOS, along with the soon-to-be-axed MKE-DFW, was one of the original Midwest Express routes back in 1985
40 mariner : If that makes money, I'm all for it. The sooner the ghost of Midwest is finally put to rest, the happier I shall be. That probably requires an essay
41 mke717spotter : He's not over there anymore, but during FL's take-over attempt Joe Leonard actually got quite a bit of media attention throughout Milwaukee.
42 Cubsrule : Yeah, I think Timmy and company did a pretty good job of making Joe Leonard look like the bad guy. I don't live in the upper midwest anymore, but I'm
43 mariner : At the time Midwest was collapsing (as opposed to the Airtran bid), Mr. Leonard wasn't the CEO of Airtran. mariner
44 rampart : Doesn't this mean that the more discounted fares were available previously and are now gone? I've seen that enough on Frontier. Good (leader) air far
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