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BA + Virgin Escape Nigeria Fines.  
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3319 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4633 times:

Always guessed this one was gonna fail.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16983943

But the head of Nigeria's CAA, Harold Demuren, said he would pursue the case.
"As far as we are concerned, the two airlines are guilty," he said.

Good luck mate, you're gonna need it.


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 4368 times:
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BOGUS is the only "fair' word to describe the efforts of Nigerian authorities to shake down BA & VA.

User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

@readytotaxi. You are right. God help anyone who tries to destroy BA's stranglehold on it's most profitable route.

@jfk77 if the nigerian stance is bogus your statement is misguided. BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks. Why? It cannot be allowed.

I'm not surprised though.

A real pity. How first world airlines continue to profit from emerging markets by colluding in keeping airfares artificially high (through fuel surcharges) is shady business. But it seems Sir Richard, champion of the underdog likes it that way. BA's little Willy will take whatever he can.

Shocking


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1389 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4108 times:

ebbuk

Don't know if you've ever heard of market forces, or the freedom of choice. Suffice to say, that's what at stake here; BA and VS are charging what the market is willing to pay, and if you don't fancy it you're welcome to take your business elsewhere.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

http://www.opodo.co.uk/opodo/flights...Ages%5B6%5D=-1&childAges%5B7%5D=-1

Prices from London to Lagos direct in March vary from £523 to £542, (BA/VS/Arik).

That does not sound excessive.


User currently offlinefiscal From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
@jfk77 if the nigerian stance is bogus your statement is misguided. BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks. Why? It cannot be allowed.

Sadly, this happens all the time by a majority of carriers. Return J fares from Australia are always more expensive (by significant amounts) than a return journey that starts from the arrival port. eg. Aust-UK-Aust is more than UK-Aust-UK

It is called price gouging. It is a combination of market forces, and complacency. The main culprits are the corporate giants that are prepared to pay higher fees because they can, and because they cannot be bothered to take their suppliers to task. Us poor leisure travelers never stand a chance of affording the high fares for a more comfortable seat, unless we commence our journey out of Australia.


User currently offlineebbuk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4044 times:

B777LRF. Market forces happen where there is an abundance of choice. An unlikely scenario in the emerging world. So the concept doesn't apply.

In the west we screw the emerging economies royally up their behinds, paying little for the natural resources, pouring mountains of aid to prop up dodgy governments that allow us to get our loot to boost our returns on capital employed to pay the dividends that keep our children in private education. So charging exorbitant fares to Nigerians shouldn't really be an issue should it?


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1270 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 3):

Don't know if you've ever heard of market forces, or the freedom of choice. Suffice to say, that's what at stake here; BA and VS are charging what the market is willing to pay, and if you don't fancy it you're welcome to take your business elsewhere.

There is no such thing as market forces in a regulated market such as Europe to Nigeria.

With that said I dont understand why the Nigerians are having a go at BA-VS. Prices are better these days then they used to be.
If Nigeria wants lower fares all they have to do is declare Nigeria open skies and remove the legal and illegal requirements that restrict any service to Nigeria.
At the same time they would be reducing the bribes, corrupt practices and other shady business that comes with flying to Nigeria.

But somehow i dont see that happening and until then were stuck with Nigeria being an expensive destination and certain Nigerians benefitting a lot from that.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7624 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3748 times:

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks.

BA, like all airlines, charges more per mile on ALL of its short haul routes than it does on any of long haul routes. For LHR-CDG-LHR, out on 1 March returning on 8 March (selected at random) the lowest economy price offered on the BA web site today (13 February) is £140. With each leg having a great circle distance of 216 miles this works out at £0,327 per mile.

Compare this with LHR-ABV-LHR on the same dates.. The return fare is £504. The great circle distance is 2,959 miles. The cost per mile ££0.085. So the cost per mile on the Nigerian flight is almost exactly one quarter of that on the French flight. And, of course, both CDG and ABV are on the BA network.

However, for the reason I stated above this is an unfair comparison. In general (but not always) the longer the flight, the cheaper the cost per mile. With the great circle distance between LHR and ABV being 2,959 miles and that between LHR and LOS being 3,101 miles the only reasonable comparison is with fares to destinations about 3,000 miles from London.

I identified five such destinations in addition to ABV and LOS. Here are the figures again for a return flight out on 1 March, back on 8 March to these destinations plus the Nigerian flights:

ABV: 2,959 miles. Fare £504. Cost per mile £0.085
ACC: 3,160 miles. Fare £694. Cost per mile £0.110
BAH: 3,169 miles. Fare £527. Cost per mile £0.082 (but £0.072 with return on any other day in week of 5 March)
JED: 2,951 miles. Fare £559. Cost per mile £0,095
KWI: 2,969 miles. Fare £594. Cost per mile ££0.100
LOS: 3,101 miles. Fare £498. Cost per mile £0.082
RUH: 3,073 miles. Fare £598. Cost per mile £0.0973

So clearly the BA charge per mile to the two Nigerian destinations is not higher but is in truth lower and sometimes significantly lower than to any other destination of a similar distance excepting BAH and even there this does not apply on the dates I randomly chose but does so on other dates, which, again for fairness, I have included.

Here it should be noted that a "reverse" booking, for example LOS-LHR-LOS, could possibly show a very different pattern. This is because of the day to day fluctuations in currency exchange rates. Neither BA nor any other airline adjusts its fares on a daily, weekly or monthly basis nor, probably even on an annual basis to reflect such changes. If a currency strengthens against sterling BA and all other airlines will tend to pocket the gain on such bookings. On the other hand if a currency weakens against sterling the airlines will take the hit. It is "swings and roundabouts". Some they win, others they lose.


User currently offlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 991 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3468 times:

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):

@readytotaxi. You are right. God help anyone who tries to destroy BA's stranglehold on it's most profitable route.

There are 21 weekly flights between LHR and LOS and BA operate 7. Hardly a stranglehold!

I am sure that as the reasonable person that you are you are also campaigning against Emirates' stranglehold on the LOS-DXB route. 14 weekly flights and they are all operated by Emirates....how dare they!

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
@jfk77 if the nigerian stance is bogus your statement is misguided. BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks. Why? It cannot be allowed.

I have said this before in another post, but I'll say it again anyway. The reason why fares are high is because demand is high but capacity is restricted. The Nigerian government seems unwilling to loosen the bilateral agreement most likely because it believes foreign carriers will benefit more than Nigerian ones. In any case, the Nigerian carriers are not in a position to expand, so you either have to put up with high fares, or have low fares but lots of flights by foreign carriers.

As indeed MillwallSean has already said:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 7):
With that said I dont understand why the Nigerians are having a go at BA-VS. Prices are better these days then they used to be.
If Nigeria wants lower fares all they have to do is declare Nigeria open skies and remove the legal and illegal requirements that restrict any service to Nigeria.
At the same time they would be reducing the bribes, corrupt practices and other shady business that comes with flying to Nigeria.


User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3424 times:

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 4):
Prices from London to Lagos direct in March vary from £523 to £542, (BA/VS/Arik).
Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 7):
With that said I dont understand why the Nigerians are having a go at BA-VS. Prices are better these days then they used to be.
Quoting VV701 (Reply 8):
So clearly the BA charge per mile to the two Nigerian destinations is not higher but is in truth lower and sometimes significantly lower than to any other destination of a similar distance excepting BAH and even there this does not apply on the dates I randomly chose but does so on other dates, which, again for fairness, I have included.

Note that the alleged price collusion took place in the period from 2004 to 2006, when BA and VS (later also VK) were the only airlines flying directly between LOS and LHR. So, current pricing doesn't prove anything about the past.

The case was thrown out because of procedural issues: "He said that the panel could not uphold the allegations against the airlines as put by the NCAA because the violation occurred between August 2004 and March 2006, while the provision of the law at that time prescribed a penalty of cease and deceased order."

Anyway, Arik Air out of the blue got seven additional slots allocated at LHR in December. Even in the UK, if the PM makes a few calls, rules can be bent...


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3327 times:
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Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
@jfk77 if the nigerian stance is bogus your statement is misguided. BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks. Why? It cannot be allowed.

"bogus" are the fines which were trying to be imposed by the Nigerian Government.

Its not BA's fault Lagos is only 3,100 miles from LHR and they charge the same as routes which are 5000 miles. Also many are flying LOS-LHR -XXX, so those passengers may not be paying much more LOS-LHR.


User currently offlineENU From Netherlands, joined Nov 2006, 1166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3280 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 11):
"bogus" are the fines which were trying to be imposed by the Nigerian Government.

How do you know that BA and VS are not guilty of price fixing in the mentioned period? Do you believe they are too good to do that? The past proves otherwise.

The fines were not imposed by the Nigerian Government, but by the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority. The NCAA accused the airlines of price fixing and imposed a fine. Subsequently, the Nigerian Government set up a judicial panel, so that BA and VS could appeal against the fines. You should at least credit the Nigerian Government for the way in which the matter was handled. It's telling that BA attacked the legal authority of the NCAA rather than questioning the claim as such. So, the question whether BA and VS are guilty of price fixing is still open. And unless you have information to prove either side of the story, your claim about 'bogus fines' lacks any basis and just shows your bias against Nigeria.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
God help anyone who tries to destroy BA's stranglehold on it's most profitable route.

I'm sorry ebbuk but Nigeria is one of the most corrupt countries I've ever been to.

I notice you don't mention that many Nigerian passengers virtually empty the Duty Free bars (often with bogus credit cards) to sell the items on to their countrymen at vastly inflated prices.

Or that LOS is one of the stations where the most is stolen from the aircraft/stores etc

Get down off the cross mate, somebody else needs the wood.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7624 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Quoting ENU (Reply 10):
Note that the alleged price collusion took place in the period from 2004 to 2006, when BA and VS (later also VK) were the only airlines flying directly between LOS and LHR.

Note that I was not commenting on the past but on the present. Furthermore I was not talking of any possible collusion between BA and VS back them or at any other time. I was simply illustrating the fact that the statement

Quoting ebbuk (Reply 2):
BA and VS charge more per mile on their nigerian routes than on any other on their respective networks. Why?

is totally wrong. Please note that this statement, which purports to be fact and not opinion, talks of the present - "charge" and not "charged" - and purely references the cost per mile of BA flights between LHR and Nigeria. It is wrong and therefore misleading and required correction.


User currently offlineTJCAB From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

Quoting ENU (Reply 12):
The fines were not imposed by the Nigerian Government, but by the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority. The NCAA accused the airlines of price fixing and imposed a fine. Subsequently, the Nigerian Government set up a judicial panel, so that BA and VS could appeal against the fines. You should at least credit the Nigerian Government for the way in which the matter was handled. It's telling that BA attacked the legal authority of the NCAA rather than questioning the claim as such. So, the question whether BA and VS are guilty of price fixing is still open. And unless you have information to prove either side of the story, your claim about 'bogus fines' lacks any basis and just shows your bias against Nigeria.

well said!


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2395 times:

- I think fuel surcharges are ridiculous and a money grabbing exercise by airlines - but this issue is not Nigeria's alone.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 13):
I notice you don't mention that many Nigerian passengers virtually empty the Duty Free bars (often with bogus credit cards)

Perhaps BA should do what VS do on the LOS route and only accept cash for duty free?


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8428 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2377 times:
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Quoting ENU (Reply 12):
The fines were not imposed by the Nigerian Government, but by the Nigerian Civil Aviation Authority. The NCAA accused the airlines of price fixing and imposed a fine. Subsequently, the Nigerian Government set up a judicial panel, so that BA and VS could appeal against the fines. You should at least credit the Nigerian Government for the way in which the matter was handled. It's telling that BA attacked the legal authority of the NCAA rather than questioning the claim as such. So, the question whether BA and VS are guilty of price fixing is still open. And unless you have information to prove either side of the story, your claim about 'bogus fines' lacks any basis and just shows your bias against Nigeria.

This is politically driven investigation. The Nigerian Government feels "taken advantage" of by the British Airlines, its not the Uk's fault if Nigeria has bad airline industry For most recent history the airline from the former colonial power cleans up in the former African colony, sorry but thats the truth. That has changed in the last 10 years as some African airlines are now "quality" airlines, Ethiopian, Kenya Airways and Arik are "quality" airlines. But Arik has 2 long haul A340-500 which have to cover lots of ground. Virign Nigeria is history.

Then there is the matter of Delta Airlines, for some reason the Nigerian Government didn't like Delta's 767-300ER and DL had to fly a 777 on its Atlanta to Lagos flight. Arik flies a 737-800 from Abuja to LHR, could you imagine the Nigerian newspapers if the UK government decided a 737 was not "worthy" of a flight from LHR to Nigeria ? They would say "who the hell are the Brits" telling us what airplane we can fly. It seems as if the Nigerian like to "investigate" the western airlines, but not when they are investigated.


User currently offlinemetalinyoni From South Africa, joined Oct 2005, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2022 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
They would say "who the hell are the Brits" telling us what airplane we can fly. It seems as if the Nigerian like to "investigate" the western airlines, but not when they are investigated.


Sound reasoning is seldom used when African countries decide to challenge former colonial powers. its too easy to play victim.

[Edited 2012-02-13 11:44:07]


Money doesn't make you happy but I would rather cry in a BMW than on public transport.
User currently offlineFCAFLYBOY From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2006, 601 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Oh god not this again!

Everytime anything relating to Nigerian aviation is raised, all Ebbuk has to say is poor Nigeria , it gotten old now my friend much like the rose tinted glasses you must be observing this situation with.

If BA/VS are 'ripping off' Nigrerians, then why on earth do Nigerians still fly these airlines in their thousands?
If you can tell me why Arik are not therefore charging £100 round ticket including taxes then might be prepared to listen to
your argument - but are they? NO

So now does that mean that a Nigerian airline is ripping Nigerians off? Also NO.

You also have to remember that BA and Virgin are legacy airlines with a high cost base, not forgetting that crews are paid
'danger money' on the LOS route which is a cost Arik does not have to face for its crew.

So if anything, Arik should be cheaper using your logic- my question to you is this - why are they usually dearer!?

There is no wrong doing here, hence why it's all been wrapped under the carpet. Egg on face yet again for the
Nigerian 'authorities' indeed. Shameful really.


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 19):
You also have to remember that BA and Virgin are legacy airlines with a high cost base, not forgetting that crews are paid
'danger money' on the LOS route which is a cost Arik does not have to face for its crew.

Actually I don't believe VS or BA receive danger money - just normal allowances... and as for Arik - most of their crews are portugese so hardly the model Nigerian airline.


User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1443 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1809 times:

Iv just done a random search of flights between LHR-LOS-LHR departing 23rd April and returning the 25th April. BA and Virgin both came to EXACTLY £1666.76 in economy. Odd that they both came to the same fare. But then I checked Arik and it was £517.76. What I cannot fathom is how they are almost 3 times the price of Arik yet always chockers (and I certainly know BA is always chockers on that route)!

Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. Clearly BA and Virgin are worth it, or is that far too simplistic a few?



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinetonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1443 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1790 times:

Quoting FCAFLYBOY (Reply 19):

You also have to remember that BA and Virgin are legacy airlines with a high cost base, not forgetting that crews are paid
'danger money' on the LOS route which is a cost Arik does not have to face for its crew.

LOL Not at all true!!!! Cant speak for VS but LOS isnt even a high earning trip.
Arik does however have to provide accomodation to its crews at base in Lagos (often in the same hotel as the foreign airlines) for up to several weeks at a time! At least the european airlines only provide accomodation for the duration of the trip!



My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1758 times:

It seems for some reason that the price for BA/VS suddenly jumps just before the date that you selected.

User currently offlinessublyme From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1725 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 17):
for some reason the Nigerian Government didn't like Delta's 767-300ER and DL had to fly a 777 on its Atlanta to Lagos flight.

Not that this is related to the topic at hand, but it is still amazing how people choose to forget (perhaps conveniently) the clearly stated issue with the 767-300ER on the ATL-LOS route. It was the wrong aircraft for the route.


25 bennett123 : IIRC, there was no safety issue with the B767.
26 jfk777 : what was wrong with a 767 on the Lagos-Atlanta route ?
27 ENU : My bad. I just wanted to point out that there is no claim being made that BA/VS currently fix their prices. Again, what makes you think that BA/VS ar
28 blueflyer : Blaming, investigating, accusing or fining foreign entities is one of the favorite tactics of questionable governments trying to divert attention fro
29 ENU : So, have you actually read the complaint by the NCAA and the evidence they presented? You are making generalising propositions and thereby dismissing
30 ssublyme : As simple as these two sentences sound, if you were ever able to achieve this globally, you would be credited with eliminating consumer protection ag
31 jfk777 : I bring it up because never have I heard a government tell a foreign airline to use a different airplane when the plane used is one of the most commo
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