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What Is Behind The Success Of Emirates?  
User currently offlineUAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20151 times:

Emirates now has 100 777's, the largest fleet of them in the world, most being 77W's. They currently also have the largest fleet of A380's with more on order. The UAE is a relatively small country for such huge amounts of seat numbers. I do realize that DXB is a bit more of a transfer hub, but how do they make it work?

Some say it is because they have a flawless business model, others say they receive funding from the government. How does this airline do it?

UAL

145 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 20133 times:
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Its a combination of things, some of which you touched on.

*Geography - DXB is the perfect point to transfer from Europe to S.Asia, Oceania and East Africa. It also can replace Europe as a transfer point for N.America.
*Service - They've had growing pains but they they put on a good hard and soft product.
*Scheduling, they usually have multiple flights which gives lots of options to travelers coming and going.
*Price - They are very competitive but will bump up prices once they establish their markets.

Cost structure. Basing out of the UAE gives them certain advantages as far as labor and maintenance costs. The fact there's government ownership could have other advantages but that's a matter of debate. Their CEO is a famous curmudgeon who wrings great deals on aircraft in terms of price and performance.


User currently offlineburj From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 901 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19925 times:

One aspect that is often over looked is that EK's growth is part of the natural expansion of air travel and has come at the expense of other carriers.

For instance PK and AI are shadows of what they should be based on local population because so much of their "home" market travels on EK.


User currently offlineblink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 19924 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 1):

*Geography - DXB is the perfect point to transfer from Europe to S.Asia, Oceania and East Africa. It also can replace Europe as a transfer point for N.America.

Made possible by ULR aircraft. Fifteen years ago, you couldn't fly LAX-DXB-BOM or nonstop DXB-SYD.



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20194 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 19774 times:

EK also probably gets a fair amount of tax breaks from its governments. Its labor costs can be lower because (at least for front-face employees), they maintain a pretty young employee roster, which means that there aren't many senior FA's and CSR's. In addition, they don't have to deal with a union. I don't know what sort of financing they get on loans, but I'd bet it's pretty good.

EK also offers a superior hard and soft product for business and high-yield passengers traveling between Europe and Australiasia as compared with most other carriers, while their Y-class product can be a bit cramped on the 777, but it is still superior to other carriers in many ways.

They focus on routes that they are sure have a relatively large demand, allowing them to operate a widebody-only fleet. This means that they can use larger aircraft, which have a lower CASM as compared to smaller aircraft. By contrast, a national carrier like AF or UA has to maintain a fleet of less efficient narrowbodies for missions under 4-5 hours. That drives up their fleetwide CASM.

Geography is one bit, but then there is also the fact that they again have a very friendly government that will happily build them more terminal space and more runways if politely asked.

Finally, good management figures in. Tim Clark really has been a miracle worker. He's a natural and he has a knack for this job. I do wonder if he will manage to leave a strong enough legacy when he retires. He is getting pretty old.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17777 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 19539 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Geography is one bit, but then there is also the fact that they again have a very friendly government that will happily build them more terminal space and more runways if politely asked.

   That's pretty much the alpha and the omega of EK: the explicit and implicit government support plus a great geographical location.

Quoting burj (Reply 2):
For instance PK and AI are shadows of what they should be based on local population because so much of their "home" market travels on EK.

...having basket cases for competition in a heavily populated neighborhood certainly help too.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineaviational From Canada, joined Jan 2012, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 19330 times:

Quoting burj (Reply 2):
For instance PK and AI are shadows of what they should be based on local population because so much of their "home" market travels on EK.

.
True ! Just for an idea, EK has 4 flights a day to KHI, while PK only 1...


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 19282 times:

I'm sure the fact that most soccer teams have "Emirates" logo on them contributes to this.

A lot of people at my school know what "Emirates" is. Most of them think it's still a 5* airline... personally, I don't see what the love-affair is all about. From what I've read, EK is subpar.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 19119 times:

As noted above DXB is a well located hub for travel from Europe to the Middle East, India, Africa, and Asia /Australia as the hub is not substantially off of the direct flight path. It allows for a single hub to serve a wide area (vs multile hubs).

EK is a young airline relatively so does not have a lot of legacy costs (pensions, etc), probably has good fuel, financing, airport fees etc. That gives it a good cost advantage.

DXB is also a freight center for a huge amount of materials that come into the Middle East for Oil and Construction. If the plane isn't full of passengers, the belly is heavy.


User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8464 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 19060 times:

All that free oil they get     

User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18980 times:

May I add some more reasons why they are successful.

1. They have a can do government. If they need more customs staff at the DXB airport they will have them in 24 hours.

2. Islamic finance. There is a huge pool of capital that is allocated on buying assets and doing profit sharing with the investors and EK instead of EK issuing bonds to them and paying them interest. Additionally, these are long term investors and an airplane is a long term revenue generating investment.

3. 1st long distance LCC. EK is the first carrier to put 10 abreast on its 777s and 7 abreast business class on its A330s.

4. Extremely healthy and profitable First class customers. EKs first class fees are out of this world. With an excellent product and a large amount of people, emirs, royal families, CEOs, etc willing to pay those fees, EK can be profitable and successful.

Highly doubt if their model can be replicated anywhere in the world.


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4405 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18953 times:

I would call the following reasons:

- An infinite amount of money to invest
- No taxes to pay
- Fortunate fuel prizes
- Blackmailing of other countries to get traffic rights on expense of local airlines
- Intense media work - Emirates uses to invite journalists for a free vsit to one of their luxury hotels to generate positive reports.

Add to this they are no bad airline.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15810 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18885 times:

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
How does this airline do it?

There's a lot of things that go into it.
1. Dubai is perfectly placed in between Europe and Asia plus Australia.
2. The growth in Asia.
3. Friendly government and regulatory environment.
4. Nearly unconstrained airport expansion while many European airports hubs suffer from congestion and NIMBY entanglements.
5. Running a good airline with good service and efficient aircraft.
6. High cost structures and struggles of European carriers, their governments, and regulations. Air India being FUBAR hasn't hurt either.
7. Expansion in the Middle East leading to many Indian and Asian expats coming to the region. (That's a big one for FlyDubai)
8. Increased fuel prices making ultra-long flights less economical.
9. They had the vision and funding to try it and pull it off. Then they get economies of scales and it snowballs. Those sheikhs are hiding some pretty large cojones under their robes.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18857 times:

What about this..

http://ezralevant.com/2011/01/emirates-airlines-owned-by-dic.html

 



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18775 times:

One answer for UK to/from Asia, Australia and New Zealand.

THEY LET YOU FLY TO/FROM YOUR NEAREST MAJOR AIRPORT ONE-STOP VIA A CENTRAL HUB, without making you pass via additional hubs like London Heathrow or Sydney.


User currently offlineCentre From Canada, joined Mar 2010, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18730 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):

EK also probably gets a fair amount of tax breaks from its governments.

fact check:

http://www.taxrates.cc/html/united-arab-emirates-tax-rates.html

As for government support to EK, I'm sure there is payback down the road.



I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18734 times:

Quoting panais (Reply 10):
3. 1st long distance LCC.

I am not sure what you mean by LCC. EK is still a full service airline and offers in-flight meals, generous baggage allowances (Economy Class customers can check in 30 kg, Business Class travellers 40 kg and if you are flying First Class you can travel with 50 kg of checked baggage,) and you don't need to swipe your credit card to watch a movie.

They are below par when it comes to 3-4-3 in Y or 2-3-2 in J but passengers seem willing to travel on their aircraft and it's not always because they are the cheapest. Often they aren't but they do offer a large number of travellers one-stop connectivity to airports that other carriers are either unwilling or unable to provide.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 11):
- Fortunate fuel prizes

It is extremely generous of FRA to offer below market rate fuel to EK.  

The cheap fuel argument comes up all the time despite EK publishing letters from fuel suppliers refuting the claim that they receive special treatment and the fact that EK purchases fuel on the market in Singapore. Why would fuel suppliers there offer preferential treatment to EK and not SQ? Remember that Dubai is not a major oil producer and there is no reason for Abu Dhabi to subsidise EK when it has its own carrier - EY.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 11):
- Blackmailing of other countries to get traffic rights on expense of local airlines

In what way? Do you have a specific example in mind?

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 11):
Add to this they are no bad airline.

There I would agree with you. My experiences with them have always been positive.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8601 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks ago) and read 18693 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
One answer for UK to/from Asia, Australia and New Zealand.

THEY LET YOU FLY TO/FROM YOUR NEAREST MAJOR AIRPORT ONE-STOP VIA A CENTRAL HUB

Not from New Zealand.... all 4 daily New Zealand-Dubai flights stop in Australia in both directions...however, given the range of destinations they can offer a 2 stop service with one change is still pretty attractive.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18539 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
There's a lot of things that go into it.
1. Dubai is perfectly placed in between Europe and Asia plus Australia.
2. The growth in Asia.
3. Friendly government and regulatory environment.
4. Nearly unconstrained airport expansion while many European airports hubs suffer from congestion and NIMBY entanglements.
5. Running a good airline with good service and efficient aircraft.
6. High cost structures and struggles of European carriers, their governments, and regulations. Air India being FUBAR hasn't hurt either.
7. Expansion in the Middle East leading to many Indian and Asian expats coming to the region. (That's a big one for FlyDubai)
8. Increased fuel prices making ultra-long flights less economical.
9. They had the vision and funding to try it and pull it off. Then they get economies of scales and it snowballs. Those sheikhs are hiding some pretty large cojones under their robes.

Oh pass me a bucket.

Look up the word 'veneer' in the dictionary please.

All that aside, business is business.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17777 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18037 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 16):
Remember that Dubai is not a major oil producer and there is no reason for Abu Dhabi to subsidise EK when it has its own carrier - EY.

Abu Dhabi has implicitly subsidized EK by throwing tens of billions of dollars at a Dubai bailout--after all, if Dubai hadn't dumped hundreds of billions of dollars into Dubai Inc, EK's P&L would look quite different.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17945 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
Abu Dhabi has implicitly subsidized EK by throwing tens of billions of dollars at a Dubai bailout

Isn't that simply what you would expect to happen in the "United" Arab Emirates? Like it would in the "United" States of America?

Put simply EK's game - changing business strategy is to be based in the first global hub location, with anywhere connected to everywhere via DXB with only one chgange pf plane. Today's long range planes enable fulfilment of this strategy.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17900 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 19):
if Dubai hadn't dumped hundreds of billions of dollars into Dubai Inc, EK's P&L would look quite different.

Not necessarily because the airline itself was (and is) profitable and paid a dividend to the holding company (and indirectly the Government of Dubai). The bailout was a response to other areas of the economy under-performing. One can speculate what might have occurred, but the airline could have kept going as a profitable concern. There has been speculation over whether Abu Dhabi demanded a stake in EK but no-one has confirmed that.


User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 468 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17887 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 16):
I am not sure what you mean by LCC. EK is still a full service airline and offers in-flight meals, generous baggage allowances (Economy Class customers can check in 30 kg, Business Class travellers 40 kg and if you are flying First Class you can travel with 50 kg of checked baggage,) and you don't need to swipe your credit card to watch a movie.


I know what you mean but this is my opinion. I rate their economy class product similar to a Low Cost Carrier. In-flight meals, baggage allowance and a movie are not my differentiators. I can do without them. Seat size and comfort are as well as boarding and de-boarding times.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17777 posts, RR: 46
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17813 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 21):
Not necessarily because the airline itself was (and is) profitable and paid a dividend to the holding company (and indirectly the Government of Dubai).

Right, but EK would be quite different if Dubai didn't build Dubai, and nearly go broke doing so, requiring a bailout from its sister emirate.

Quoting JerseyFlyer (Reply 20):
Isn't that simply what you would expect to happen in the "United" Arab Emirates? Like it would in the "United" States of America?

Not necessarily--the governments are quite different. One is elected, for example 



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineLondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1517 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17812 times:

Quoting burj (Reply 2):
One aspect that is often over looked is that EK's growth is part of the natural expansion of air travel and has come at the expense of other carriers.

True. Look at how major Asian carriers like SQ, TG and MH have hardly grown their kangaroo route services since the Gulf carriers became established Don Under.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Geography is one bit, but then there is also the fact that they again have a very friendly government that will happily build them more terminal space and more runways if politely asked.

And lack of curfew restrictions at Gulf airport, the ability to 'hire and fire' staff at will, no Passenger Rights legislation to bother with, no costly taxes etc.

Quoting koruman (Reply 14):
THEY LET YOU FLY TO/FROM YOUR NEAREST MAJOR AIRPORT ONE-STOP VIA A CENTRAL HUB, without making you pass via additional hubs like London Heathrow or Sydney.

That is becoming a major selling point as EK can link expat communities all over the world, eg DUB-DXB-SYD, or VCE-DXB-MEL or DUS-DXB-NRT and so on.


25 hohd : First they built the critical mass by having implicit government support, airport support and flying from Indian Subcontinent to key Europe, Africa an
26 Quokkas : The positive attitude to aviation in Dubai certainly helps but during an interview with Tim Clark a few years ago he lamented that he simply could no
27 Post contains links LondonCity : Not strictly true. EU passenger rights legislation covers passengers on all airlines departing the EU. But only EU-based airlines have to honour EU p
28 Quokkas : Thank you for the correction. The same applies in Australia. Sell a fare in Australia and you are bound by local laws. So, if a passenger flies from
29 directorguy : You also have to consider how EK in the first fifteen years of its existence. Its growth was very gradual, and reflected the increase in demand. EK di
30 kdhurst380 : Actually, British Airways pioneered 10 abreast 777's, and promptly got rid of it after the swarm of negative feedback from customers on the layout. I
31 Quokkas : This is a good observation. Alongside the growth of EK we have seen the growth in the number of non-UAE carriers and their frequencies to DXB. To be
32 shankly : Having been an EK customer since the days of their A310's, two factors stick out for me: 1. They have consistently raised the bar in terms of passenge
33 mogandoCI : One of the biggest reason must be the absolute weakness of AI, the stalled network of 9W, and the collapse of Kingfisher. EK is the de factor flag car
34 Flanor : DUS-DXB-NRT (8080 mi) is a 35% longer trip than for example DUS-FRA-NRT (5953 mi). Plus DUS-DXB is 2x daily while DUS-FRA is 7x daily.
35 Jasondn : I would LOVE to see their last balance sheet. I know they are expanding, but are they profitable? and if so, how much more or less than say BA, AI, UA
36 Post contains links and images Quokkas : Please be my guest: http://www.emirates.com/au/english/i...ages/EK-AR-10-11_tcm276-750566.pdf The file is about 2.3MB. The usual qualifications apply
37 Post contains images AAIL86 : Spot on article. Thanks for posting.
38 LH7478i : How much do they pay for their fuel compared to european or american carriers ? Since they are "sitting on it" I could imagine they have quite an adva
39 MaverickM11 : EK benefits from a lot of things, none of which is fuel. It's primarily a supportive government, and unsupportive EU/Indo/Paki governments.
40 Quokkas : As posted earlier, Dubai is not a major producer of oil and even if it was the oil would need to be refined. You can't simply pump oil out of the gro
41 deconz : I believe DXB/AKL non-stop is possible with the 77L but perhaps not commercially viable at this time. It will happen!
42 F9Animal : Oil.... That is why.
43 LH7478i : Thanks, i didn't know that . I was thinking about cheaper fuel in general at DXB. With cheap fuel at your hub you should have an overall advantage ov
44 BMI727 : That's a big part of it. In a world where competitors have increased regulations, higher costs, and hubs that have to fight tooth and nail to expand,
45 scbriml : Can you back that up with any numbers? How does support for the Emirate of Dubai by Abu Dhabi subsidise EK? All through the GFC Emirates was making a
46 mogandoCI : That's what I meant - not viable in any regular config unless you're doing all-J setup like SQ's A345s. If it's all J I think the 77L with aux tanks
47 Post contains images MaverickM11 : What would EK look like without all of the development in Dubai? IE no malls, no hotels, no bigger than the next attraction, no Palm this, Palm that,
48 scbriml : Well, it's a symbiotic relationship. As Dubai has grown, EK has grown to support it. As EK grows, it brings more people to and through Dubai. Certain
49 Irishpower : I think it is financing. EK borrows money for next to nothing. Their financing costs from the central banks in the UAE must be 1/2 or even less than c
50 faro : And don't forget the NRI Non-Resident Indians market. From what I understand (and including Pakistan and Bangladesh ), they are EK's biggest share of
51 MaverickM11 : Right, and how underwater is all that Dubai growth? I was being a little facetious, but I don't know that it'd be much different. Without a core loca
52 WROORD : Wait for US to stop buying oil from the Middle East and EK will be much smaller....
53 cmf : I know this is difficult to grasp but oil is as expensive if not more in UAE. The reason is that oil (with gas) is essentially their export product.
54 mcogator : Keep dreaming, on both counts. The US won't stop buying oil from the Middle East as we have vested interest in the oil to begin with. Secondly, the w
55 caleb1 : Believe what you will, but Emirates is not subpar at all, and this is based on personal experience. Subpar is UAL in my opinion, but Emirates.....NOT
56 emirates202 : 3 Reasons: Great Product Great Airline Great Hub city I have been frequently flying EK since they first started flying to JFK, back in 2004, when I wa
57 Post contains images m11stephen : A terrific business model for an airline to have. Also, they still maintain a high customer service and safety rating despite employing younger F/As
58 catiii : Also, don't forget the preferential financing terms from the US's ExIm bank they get on 777 purchases from Boeing. makes a big difference when they d
59 MaverickM11 : Either way the whole operation has sucked up a lot of government funds Good grief...by people who haven't been to NYC....Dubai is the Sawgrass Mills
60 BMI727 : Considering that Emirates already undercuts most other airlines, the gap is only going to get bigger. Based on what I've seen, Dubai is much better t
61 m11stephen : I once had to call EK to see if I could have three seats on their IAH-DXB flight. My airlines flight was late which cause a party of three to miss the
62 AA909 : So many factors, but this one is huge. Something like 1.5 billion people in the region (Pakistan, India, Bangladesh) and not a single competent airli
63 gr8circle : Not really.....having lived for a few years in a neighboring country to UAE, I can tell you that petrol (or gas for N.Americans) costs just as much a
64 Post contains images BMI727 : Bottled water is even more expensive than gasoline. And not nearly as fun.
65 fiscal : I saw a documentary a little while ago that said that Dubai was fearful of losing oil revenue in the next 25 years due to diminishing reserves, and so
66 scbriml : You keep claiming this, but offer no evidence to support it. Show us the money.
67 cmf : Show me a route where EU ETS cost changes the dynamics between EK and their competition. I lost track of how many times I have been to Dubai but betw
68 UALWN : I don't quite follow you. What would BA look like without the City, the financial capital of Europe? What would LH look like without FRA, the financi
69 Post contains links mikey72 : http://ezralevant.com/2011/01/emirates-airlines-owned-by-dic.html EK's CEO is a sheikh, Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum, whose nephew just happens to be th
70 cmf : * shrug * Always easier to twist half truths than accept the competition actually is better than you.
71 mikey72 : Look business is business, good luck to them (I honestly mean that) But let's not wrap it all up in ribbons and bows, that's all.
72 gr8circle : Costs of different items vary in different parts of the world......US prices do not represent the world.....even bottled water is very cheap in the G
73 scbriml : It certainly does. I suggest you check their publicly available annual reports. They benefit from being home-based in a tax-free location (but guess
74 cmf : Selling some domestically is great policy. They certainly need oil for their daily living as much as we do. Doesn't change that the cost to UAE (the
75 MaverickM11 : How is that physically possible, when everyone and their mother competes on that route? Except for SIN, all else being equal they'd still be vast pop
76 UALWN : Tourists? In Frankfurt? Really?
77 Burkhard : So the very wise bilateral between Germany and UAE that requires 50% O&D is a wise boost for Dubai wealth.
78 Post contains images Quokkas : It has been beneficial to both countries.
79 MaverickM11 : Where do you think most tourists enter Germany?
80 UALWN : Uh? This is what you wrote: Where "they" refers to London and Frankfurt. Well, Frankfurt neither has a vast population nor loads of tourists swarming
81 MaverickM11 : Tourists are a result of thousands of years of history and demographics, not the financial center or airport that was built in the blink of an eye, r
82 Quokkas : Only partly true. When LH relocated from HAM (its initial postwar base) to FRA it had very little to do with tourism. Partly it was politics: partly
83 directorguy : Take away EK from DXB, and you'd STILL have a pretty busy airport-would probably still be the busiest in the Middle East. You'd have a huge and divers
84 frmrCapCadet : My fantasy trip to Ethiopia. I checked EK, they now fly 777s (most Y at 34 inch pitch?) out of Seattle. A hop to Ethiopia. I shop on value, and I susp
85 ytz : A supportive government and a ruthlessly efficient management. You have a cozy relationship where the Dubai Minister for Civil Aviaiton, the Dubai Air
86 Quokkas : To a certain extent. But don't forget that EK also has to fit in with the regulations covering the destinations that it serves. This does have an imp
87 UALWN : Not much. Take the airport and the financial capital of continental Europe out of Frankfurt and what do you have? Not much either.
88 ytz : To a certain extent. Being able to control half the equation though certainly is a huge advantage over their rivals. There's a good reason for that.
89 MaverickM11 : Not quite. There are plenty of countries in Europe without a Frankfurt or the City, and they have functioning societies just like Germany and the UK.
90 UALWN : Of course! But they do not have airlines like BA or LH, which is the point of this discussion.
91 Quokkas : On the surface that may be true, but as anyone who has been involved in route planning knows things are not that simple. Having control at your end d
92 scbriml : That project is moribund save for a few cargo flights. So, how exactly, has EK benefited from that new airport? New terminals have been built at DXB
93 mikey72 : No more than the foreign carriers being able to consolidate by alliance in the other Terminals. Termianl 5 benefitted everyone either directly or ind
94 Post contains links AABB777 : CNBC's Going Global recently did a piece on Dubai, it's pretty interesting. Included in the broadcast was a segment on EK. Below is the link to the pi
95 ytz : As a fleet planner would you not be happy if you were told that your hub was a 24 hr. operation? How many major airlines have that luxury? (particula
96 mogandoCI : That mostly works in a hub where everyone transits but few actually visit - i.e. DXB. If I'm visiting a destination I'd hate to land at 3am and have
97 cmf : You need to check with your neighbor to the south what happens when people on a work visa are terminated...
98 MaverickM11 : EK can get an entirely new airport, decide they don't want it, and get a new terminal instead, and BA gets one terminal, and even the good Lord Herse
99 fiscal : Simple answer, because they all joined the band wagon. Let me give you an example. OZ-UK-OZ J seat on EK is about $8500. UK-OZ-UK is $5500. As I said
100 scbriml : None of which is EK's fault and is BA's (or the UK's) problem. The new airport wasn't planned exclusively for EK, it was for Dubai. So the Dubai gove
101 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Which brings us back full circle to reply #39 Really --who do you think would be the primary carrier to benefit from anything done in Dubai? I'll giv
102 BMI727 : Who do you think would benefit most from anything done in London? The difference is that Dubai gets it done.
103 Post contains links Viscount724 : Some photos of DXB airport around 1962. http://www.diecastaircraftforum.com/...ation/84193-old-dubai-airport.html
104 MaverickM11 : Your answer to that better be BA, and if so, I'm glad we can finally recognize the obvious.
105 mcogator : The same could be said for my home of Orlando, plus Miami, Vegas etc etc. If you build it, they will come.
106 BMI727 : But where this gets stupid is when people talk about having a nice hub and a government with the means and desire to construct world class infrastruc
107 MaverickM11 : Yes, but those places were the result of significant private investment, probably with public machinery greasing the wheels. None of them, however, a
108 Post contains images mikey72 : I think what really sticks in the craw of most airline CEO's is that not only do EK go for the under served regional airports of any given area (where
109 Post contains links Quokkas : And just when they thought it was safe to go back into the water..the UAE updates the Air Services Agreement with the UK. source - http://www.khaleej
110 Post contains images scbriml : Exactly. In no way would anyone consider it a subsidy for BA. Nothing that the Dubai government does would be considered a subsidy for EK by anyone o
111 nimbus111 : oil and more oil. also the region is a big tourist spot these days. just a guess.
112 ytz : Such superficial comparisons belie the truth. What proportion of the American workforce are on H-1s? It's miniscule compared to the citizens and perm
113 directorguy : True. The UAE has no permanent residency, and there is no path towards naturalization. You're only there on a temporary work or residency permit whic
114 mcogator : Umm, Dubai is the 7th most visited city in the world, one spot behind NYC. 7.6 million people visit the city annually. That is slightly more than a f
115 Post contains images cmf : Lets look at your statement "No democracy can" and "superficial comparisons belie the truth" I know several people in US and UAE who have been in thi
116 Post contains images scbriml : 7.6 million is a big number. However, it's only 15% out of a total of 51 million passengers handled by DXB last year. I think it's fair to say the va
117 mcogator : I know this is seriously flawed as the visitor number includes people who take other modes of transportation such as cars and trains, but I thought i
118 MaverickM11 : I'm not sure about this--B6 alone is probably 90% local in NYC
119 mogandoCI : It's quite a flawed statistic you're quoting. LAS as a metro has 40 million annual visitors. Granted some drive in from LA, but can't imagine that pa
120 mcogator : Sorry, the numbers are international visitors. I failed to post that small tidbit in my original posting. If the numbers included domestic visitors,
121 ytz : Again. There is no comparison when you take scale into account. What proportion of the US workforce is composed of non-resident workers? Even if you
122 ytz : That's not an irrelevant detail though. Dubai is high on the list of international visitors because it's a tiny speck that has no domestic or regiona
123 Quokkas : Anyone from outside of the UAE would be an "international visitor" and your claim that it has no is untrue. Check out the numbers of passengers visit
124 mcogator : "small tidbit" was sarcasm on my post. Orlando has somewhere close to 50 million visitors, so right there you can see the importance of the internati
125 cmf : What does scale matter to the individuals affected? Point is you tried to vilify UAE for things also practiced in the area you claimed it isn't and n
126 ytz : Apologies. My sarcasm detector failed. That all maybe true. But regional travel is still not the vast majority of EK or the UAE's air traffic. Whatev
127 ytz : Read above. I lived there for half my life. That's assuming illegal migrants too. Take them out and you'd have less than 5% of the population on visa
128 ytz : Nobody should take from my posts that I think EK is badly run, or directly subsidized. Nor do I think the UAE is a horrible place (although I don't th
129 mogandoCI : Isn't QR doing a semi-decent job replicating it, albeit with less success ?
130 ytz : True. But they also have the same "situation". My comment is more directed at those who think that such success can easily be replicated in countries
131 cmf : Then you should know there are plenty of working locals. Not so much in Dubai but in RAK there are plenty. Stocking shelfs at Carrefour, digging tren
132 Post contains links ytz : Yeah. That's not how the successful locals live. Ask your friends about the silent local partner rule in the UAE. Perhaps I was wrong to state it in
133 AAIL86 : It's not right when people are taken advantage of in the UAE, US, or hell, USSR, anywhere. One person in economic slavery is too many. CMF, I agree t
134 cmf : It is not how the successful Americans live either. Again, two wrongs do not make a right. I remember October 2001 when i2 laid of 2,000 people. Ther
135 ytz : We can agree to disagree. I think most reasonable people would agree that equating the US and the UAE on this front is utterly absurd. In my humble o
136 StarAC17 : Dubai gets things done because there is no accountability and no one to answer to, even if there is opposition it doesn't have to be listened to. In
137 Post contains links mikey72 : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17082433 This issue in the region is a threat to the success of EK. Sky rocketing oil prices and a hub smack ban
138 BMI727 : They're allowed to feel that way, but if that makes it more convenient to give someone else my money so be it. It makes me unsympathetic when someone
139 mikey72 : Recognition of the impact on 'quality of life' regardless of financial implication is one of the issues that differentiates certain regions of the wo
140 BMI727 : It's never "regardless of financial implication." Every regulation has a cost. If you don't want the noise of an airport, you don't get the economic
141 mikey72 : Well then...let's allow flights in and out of LHR and FRA all through the night. $$$$$$$$ for everyone. (inluding the manufacturers of sleeping pills
142 Post contains images StarAC17 : The people have spoken and it will be a time that curfews extend out to many other airports with urban expansion I hardly believe that those cities a
143 BMI727 : If people decide they'd rather have the extra flights and money that's fine. But if the people in London really don't want a new runway at LHR and th
144 YTZ : I think most people understand that there are costs to avoiding expansion. Otherwise, the issue would not have that much debate. The problem in a dem
145 BMI727 : Then why do people treat Emirates like they are cheating?
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