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$100 User Fees Passed  
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 590 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12171 times:

Just in... 100 dollar fees were passed for the 2013 budget.

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news...udesAviationUserFees_206179-1.html


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12159 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Thread starter):
Just in... 100 dollar fees were passed for the 2013 budget.

No budget for 2013 has been passed. This is simply a proposition in the President's budget.


User currently offlineJohn From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 1374 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12115 times:

It's about time. Commercial airlines are already taxed to the hilt. Private(corporate) aviation needs to pay it's fair share.

User currently offlineCZ346 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 95 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12075 times:

Quoting John (Reply 2):

Do...you know..ANTHING about aviation and how it works? Or the politics behind this matter?

[Edited 2012-02-15 05:58:02]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12173 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11966 times:

Quoting John (Reply 2):
Commercial airlines are already taxed to the hilt. Private(corporate) aviation needs to pay it's fair share.

in the US taxes and user fees are looked at by the politicians as two different things, even though in reality they are the same thing. Commerical Airlines do not pay a 'user fee' to fly in the national airspace. There is no reason why private, corporate, or anyone else needs to pay these 'fees' either.


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 590 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):

Ya you are right, it has not been passed by legislation yet. The first article i read was not the one I linked to and was misleading...

However, it is important enough to say it has been officially adopted by this administration. Hopefully legislation will still reject it.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11720 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Commerical Airlines do not pay a 'user fee' to fly in the national airspace.

No, but the passengers pay excise taxes. When you buy a ticket, there is a 7.5% federal excise tax tacked on among several other "fees" (segment charges, facilities fees, security fee). This has been part of the argument of airlines is that they are unfairly subsidizing the system through passenger taxes. However, corporate operators argue that they pay their fair share through fuel taxes.

To me this is just another political stunt. The $100 fee exempts piston planes, so it is largely targeting the corporate market. One of the current administrations pushes all along is to drive up taxes on corporate jet owners. Previously it was tried through elimination of some income tax credits, and now this is just a back door way of taxing them.

One thing that seems to be going largely unnoticed is that the same budget calls for an increase in the security fee that is tacked onto a passenger airline ticket. Currently it is $2.50, and if this budget passes, it will double to $5.00 and ultimately triple to $7.50 by 2018.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11615 times:

User fees for corporate aviation are needed. The airlines contribute greatly to the system the corps use for free. As a result the CEO in his global express has his usage paid by the current passengers for the airlines. Having them pay is the responsible thing to do. Also this does not affect "Joe Weekend Warrior" and his C172 playing pilot. The turbine limit moves the charges to the necessary parties. Therefore the GA group can continue to fly without paying. This is about business and the burden they place on the system paid for by the airlines. If I could levy the fee it would be layered based on AC type and amount of usage. Much like a landing fee at a major airport that the Bizjets already pay to use the airports facilities they should pay for airspace too.

User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11573 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 6):
The $100 fee exempts piston planes...

Even in flight school and 135 operations?



The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11524 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
in the US taxes and user fees are looked at by the politicians as two different things, even though in reality they are the same thing. Commerical Airlines do not pay a 'user fee' to fly in the national airspace. There is no reason why private, corporate, or anyone else needs to pay these 'fees' either.

Because there is an exemption for aviation in the no subsidizing mantra?   


User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11507 times:

Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
The airlines contribute greatly to the system the corps use for free.

That's not entirely true. Corporate pays taxes on fuel. By that same logic, everyone who doesn't drive a commercial big rig or bus on the highway should pay a fee as well. I use as much fuel in my car in a year as a big rig does in a couple of days, therefore the big rig pays way more taxes than I do that goes into the highway fund, but I still get to use all the same roads they do. Is it fair? I don't know, but given that presumably the majority of aircraft using ATC are commercial airlines (does anyone have a statistic), it stands to reason they pay more.

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 8):
Even in flight school and 135 operations?

From what I understand, yes; flight schools especially. If there were a $100 fee/flight for flight training, it would add probably 40% to the cost of flight training and effectively kill the flight training industry.

[Edited 2012-02-15 07:38:59]


SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineairportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3680 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11440 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 6):
To me this is just another political stunt. The $100 fee exempts piston planes, so it is largely targeting the corporate market. One of the current administrations pushes all along is to drive up taxes on corporate jet owners. Previously it was tried through elimination of some income tax credits, and now this is just a back door way of taxing them.

Yup...pretty much sums that up.

Quoting mcdu (Reply 7):
The airlines contribute greatly to the system the corps use for free

Wrong.

Everyone here (wrongly) assumes that every business jet flight is Part 91, with the owner in tow and no one else aboard. A chartered flight is subject to Federal Excise Taxes (FET), and there are plenty of those happening everyday. It's not cheap either on several thousand's of dollars.

Maybe I missed something..feel free to correct



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlinerl757pvd From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4707 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11319 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 10):
From what I understand, yes; flight schools especially. If there were a $100 fee/flight for flight training, it would add probably 40% to the cost of flight training and effectively kill the flight training industry.

No, this is not true as piston airplanes are exempt fronm the user fee, otherwise it would not only kill the flight training industry but aviation as a whole as there would be no new pilots.

While piston aircraft are exept and an extra $100 to a high end business jet is nothing, its the middle ground people like the King Airs and PC-12s that will take a hit.

The way I see it the feee should be based on airspace:

Class A (Above 18,000 ft) and Class B (busiest) you have to pay the fee

Class C, D (C and D are towered, tracon and TRSA), E and G are free.

One thing this should help is reduce unecessary congestion in the shuffling of business jets that you see between HPN, TEB and MMU.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11253 times:

Quoting rl757pvd (Reply 12):

No, this is not true as piston airplanes are exempt fronm the user fee

That's what I was explaining if you follow the replies back.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinecha747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 787 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11236 times:

I pay taxes to drive on the road....why not to fly in the air? If this fee reduces congestion in places like the NE corridor, I'm all for it. Unfortunately, I think that $100 per leg will just be a drop in the bucket for most of the people that this tax or fee is targeting. My hope is that the money REALLY DOES go to supporting our air traffic infrastructure so that our airspace is made more safe.


You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21796 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11133 times:

Quoting cha747 (Reply 14):
I pay taxes to drive on the road....why not to fly in the air?

If you're suggesting that GA doesn't pay taxes, you're very much incorrect.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlineC767P From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11114 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 5):
However, it is important enough to say it has been officially adopted by this administration.

That is nothing new…this administration has been the reason this has been brought up before.

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 6):
The $100 fee exempts piston planes, so it is largely targeting the corporate market.

For how long? Because once $100 user fees are in place for everything non piston it is only a matter of time until they include piston planes.

If you own a jet, how is it fair that on a IFR day you have to wait for a 172 to depart who does not pay into the system? If they have to pay to talk to the same people a 172 would, it won’t take long to include all piston planes that talk to ATC.

Once that happens small GA is dead.


User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11040 times:

Quoting C767P (Reply 16):
For how long? Because once $100 user fees are in place for everything non piston it is only a matter of time until they include piston planes.

I agree.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 590 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 10851 times:

Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 10):
From what I understand, yes; flight schools especially. If there were a $100 fee/flight for flight training, it would add probably 40% to the cost of flight training and effectively kill the flight training industry.

for me, it would actually be a 130% increase over what im paying. It would take my $78 dollar an hour (wet) 172 rentals to $178 a flight lasting an hour.



Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 477 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10774 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 18):

$78/hr wet for a 172? Where are you flying? I want to rent there!   

Anyway, my 40% figure is a rough estimate figured on the total cost of flight training (aircraft rental, instruction, etc), plus the fact that when I taught, the average flight time during a lesson was probably closer to 1.5 hours, especially when you consider cross-country training. At our flight school we charged $110/hr wet for a 172 and $40/hr for instruction. I'm sure it has increased since I left three years ago. For a two-hour lesson including a 1.5 hour flight, that was about $245 per lesson. A $100 fee would be roughly 40% of that.

Thankfully at this point there is no proposed user fee for piston aircraft, although like C767P stated, if this passes it is only a matter of time.



SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3151 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10714 times:

Quoting cha747 (Reply 14):
I pay taxes to drive on the road....

And GA pays taxes to fly. Aviation fuel taxes are significantly higher than road fuel taxes. Many airports also charge landing fees much like the tolls you pay to drive.

This is nothing more than political theatre as stated before. Pelosi can rant and rave all she wants about the "corporate fat cats" but she gets really quiet about the fact that she demanded a bigger aircraft (737) than previously provided to the speaker of the house (gulfstream) because she needed to cart around more people.

If the airline system were perfect, you wouldn't need GA. GA exists because it needs to. Many businesses use it for efficiency as well as cost and time savings. While there are a few using their global express to enjoy a vactation on some tropical island most corporate aircraft are utilized to get to meetings and conduct business in cities inaccessable from the airlines or to get closer to where they need to be.



DMI
User currently onlineatct From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2325 posts, RR: 38
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10600 times:

Do I see resurgence of B-26, B-25, and Lockheed Lodestar business aircraft?   


atct



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10586 times:

Quoting C767P (Reply 16):
it is only a matter of time until they include piston planes.
Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 17):
I agree.
Quoting MountainFlyer (Reply 19):
like C767P stated, if this passes it is only a matter of time.

Since you all are so confident in predicting the future, maybe you could share some stock tips, too?

It's a common rant that "taxes only ever go up", but my tax rates are lower now than they were a decade ago. I'd be skeptical that this would be extended to GA in anything like this form.

We can all agree on this - user fees stink, when you're the user!


User currently offlinefrmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1732 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10562 times:

What do a typical business jets, say in the 4, 10, 25, 75 (or so) seats cost per hour to fly?


Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10539 times:

Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 23):
What do a typical business jets, say in the 4, 10, 25, 75 (or so) seats cost per hour to fly?

I'm going to say approx. $2,500-$4,000/hr for a biz jet. The 75 seater you ask about is probably a BBC (or Airbus equivalent). That is probably $8,000+/hr. Just a guess on my part.


25 Mir : This isn't a tax, it's a user fee. How many user fees have ever gone down? -Mir
26 blueflyer : But roads would be built far differently (read cheaply) and would need far less repairs if they didn't have to accommodate the weight of rigs that ca
27 Post contains links MountainFlyer : You just made my argument for me. Despite the fact they are built to handle big rigs, you and I get to enjoy the same roads that they do, yet we pay
28 xdlx : Bring back the connies....!
29 flightsimer : Beaver County Community College and Moore Aviation. Due to being an in-state resident, i recieve a 40% discount on my flying rentals while flying thr
30 C767P : Buy low, sell high! It is that reason that AOPA pushes so hard against user fees. Small GA does not have many supporters. Those who live around small
31 oflanigan : Anyone who really believes user fees are a good thing, and the current system of fuel and ticket taxes is bad and not sustainable for the future must
32 Post contains images 0NEWAIR0 : User fees have always been adopted by the Obama Administration and the user fees have always gotten thrown out of any budget passed. This year will b
33 oflanigan : I second the motion.
34 ThirtyEcho : If this brings back the Howard 500 to the business fleet, it is all worthwhile. Most incredible sounding airplane in the world.
35 ikramerica : It's part of his Chavez-like second term campaigning. It's no accident that no budget has been passed since he took office allowing him to fund whate
36 catiii : Fortunately the President's party, which controls the Senate, unanimously rejected his budget proposal last year and has not passed a budget in over 1
37 captainstefan : And I'm sure the Senators and Representatives will balk at passing the bill when they discover that it will directly cause their flights to cost more
38 Post contains images KELPkid : Never mind the fact that, up until now, ATC was funded by not only the passenger tax excise fee, but the federal aviation fuel tax (which is paid by A
39 boilerla : Forgive me if I'm wrong, but the bill that funded the FAA also included provisions to pay for NextGen (ATC). To the tune of $11.4 billion. That's larg
40 0NEWAIR0 : We could cut (or make cuts in) the Department of Education... or the Department of Energy or... (I could go on...) The air transportation system is a
41 flybyguy : IMHO if one can afford to purchase and operate a $2 million turbine aircraft, one should be able to pay a $100 user fee fairly easily. No biggie.
42 par13del : How about if anyone can afford to purchase a car, insurance and gas to drive on the roads they should be able to pay a $5.00 charge towards a clean e
43 ytz : The US (and many other jurisdictions) is in the mess it is, because every single American has some reason why they shouldn't be taxed. Yet, they all w
44 ytz : There are places in the US where you'd spend at least $5 in tolls commuting to work everyday. It's not a far-fetched idea by any stretch of the imagi
45 0NEWAIR0 : First of, President Obama reauthorized the accelerated depreciation (tax break) for corporate jets in his 2009 stimulus package. This tax break is a
46 737tanker : For those who say it is on $100 you do realize it is $100 for every flight of all turbine aircraft. That includes not only business aircraft, but char
47 blueflyer : I'm still waiting to read about a single operator that will park their planes if the fee is implemented. What is the CEO going to do instead? Fly Firs
48 N62NA : Actually, she demanded (and got) a 757.
49 Goldenshield : As well as gliders, baloons, among others...
50 737tanker : As I said this is not just charters but for all flights involving ATC and turbine aircraft, this includes all 121 flights, as well as 135 and 91. In
51 Post contains images 71Zulu : If it's $100 for each and every flight gotta be way more than a million. Doesn't WN have over 3,000 flights per day?
52 0NEWAIR0 : 3,400*366*100 = $124,440,000
53 737tanker : Just shows that a pilot should never do math in public. You are correct it will be over $100M per year, not $1M. Based on 3000 flights per day it wou
54 mmedford : lol woohoo... I'll finally get my pay raise then. I'm for it!
55 71Zulu : But the article quoted in the OP doesn't mention airlines so I'm not sure if they are included in this. "The Obama administration's 2013 budget propos
56 737tanker : The only exemption I see for the airlines are flights that start and end in Canada. Airlines are not military, public (FAA language for government) a
57 catiii : One would think, and on base I wouldn't have a problem with that. However, the fee goes towards deficit reduction, and doesn't go at all towards anyt
58 ytz : Principle is fine and all. But here's the thing, the US has a deficit and it has to be reduced. Sure, there are cuts that can be made. But everyone kn
59 catiii : If we're talking about "fair share," how fair is it to pay off the deficit on the backs of airline pax and general aviation? Why shouldn't it be spre
60 boilerla : It does go to towards deficit reduction. And it goes towards NextGen. NextGen was passed, UNFUNDED. Therefore, it is a deficit. Every dime spent on t
61 0NEWAIR0 : Since the creation of the Department of Education was created spending per kid has gone up 190% and reading and math scores are virtually unchanged a
62 flybyguy : Which is guaranteed to passed along in whole to paying passengers... I still don't understand what's the gripe. Between security fees, baggage fees,
63 catiii : All authorization bills are unfunded. That is what the appropriations process is for, and the President's Budget Request seperately reflects a reques
64 71Zulu : But I thought the purpose of this was to "even the playing field" between the airlines who say they pay too much and corporate who some say don't pay
65 MountainFlyer : Nowhere that I know of has actually said this will apply to airlines. Absolutely nothing has been codified yet, and the references everyone is using h
66 par13del : This is easier to do, the US Aviation Industry has a fund that can only be allocated by Congress - those in the know can provide more details mind is
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