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LY CEO: Can't Join Alliance Because We're Jewish  
User currently offlineNYC2TLV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18509 times:

http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/glob...ocview.asp?did=1000725216&fid=1725

Nothing about not having a real hub in TLV.

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinejetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18466 times:

Surely they can't be serious?


Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlinelhr380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18434 times:

Quoting NYC2TLV (Thread starter):

Im very confused with what he has written??


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18401 times:

I don't get it.....first he says that the reason they can't join is because of the size of the fleet and the inability to compensate passengers in delays, etc. because of that (that makes no sense, either) and then he says it's "because we're Jewish", which makes even less sense.


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineNUAir From Malaysia, joined Jun 2000, 1181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18289 times:

ughh Religion, politics and airline alliances all in one sentence.

Airliners is going to need to call the fire department to prevent this flame war.



"How Many Assholes we got on this ship?" - Lord Helmet
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18258 times:
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Quoting jetblast (Reply 1):
Surely they can't be serious?

They are serious, and don't call them Shirley!



Made from jets!
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18165 times:

Quoting NYC2TLV (Thread starter):
Nothing about not having a real hub in TLV.

Even if they *have* a real hub at TLV, who would want to transit there and go through all that security hassle for no reason ?


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18135 times:

  

I'd think the reason they can't join an alliance is because they don't have much to offer the alliance, not because "they're Jews." Very strange statement.


User currently offlinejetblast From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 1231 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18128 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):

Well, apparently, by their own logic I can't fly El Al since I am not Jewish.



Speedbird Concorde One
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17843 times:

The only alliance where LY will never get into is probably Skyteam, though it would be great thing to have Saudia and El Al in one alliance (well they also have both China Airlines and China Southern and China Eastern)

User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3265 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17814 times:

Was it Jackie Mason who said "You don't have to be Jewish to be Jewish" ?


you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17790 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 9):
The only alliance where LY will never get into is probably Skyteam, though it would be great thing to have Saudia and El Al in one alliance (well they also have both China Airlines and China Southern and China Eastern)

Ha. Wishful thinking. There is no feasible way two airlines can co-exist in the same alliance if one of them is headquartered/based on a country that doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the other (Saudi Arabia, like a few other Islamic nations, does not recognize Israel as an official nation).

Quoting NUAir (Reply 4):
ughh Religion, politics and airline alliances all in one sentence.

LOL. And you can barely even hope that two of these facets will not conflict each other in these decisions!



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently onlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17695 times:

They can't, because they are Israeli, not because they are Jewish.

User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17567 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
There is no feasible way two airlines can co-exist in the same alliance if one of them is headquartered/based on a country that doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the other

You mean like the way that Skyteam has both CZ and CI even though the PRC don't recognise Taiwan ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently onlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4769 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 17543 times:
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Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 11):
Ha. Wishful thinking. There is no feasible way two airlines can co-exist in the same alliance if one of them is headquartered/based on a country that doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the other (Saudi Arabia, like a few other Islamic nations, does not recognize Israel as an official nation).

As LJ pointed out that didn't stop a Taiwanese carrier joining 2 mainland Chinese carriers and they are technically still in a civil war!


User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 771 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17485 times:
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I don't understand this......at school we learn that all people are equal......Does that mean that this guy did not go to school??

Quoting LJ (Reply 9):
The only alliance where LY will never get into is probably Skyteam, though it would be great thing to have Saudia and El Al in one alliance (well they also have both China Airlines and China Southern and China Eastern)

How about Star Alliance (EgyptAir) and OneWorld (Royal Jordanian)? BTW. I think Saudia is not an official member according to the SkyTeam website.


User currently offlinemilemaster From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17361 times:

I thought that LY was for all intents and purposes effectively in Oneworld. I've flown DFW-MAD-TLV TLV-LHR-DFW seamlessly with AA/BA/LY and earn full AAdvantage across with thru ticketing and baggage.

User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17214 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 9):
The only alliance where LY will never get into is probably Skyteam, though it would be great thing to have Saudia and El Al in one alliance (well they also have both China Airlines and China Southern and China Eastern)

Both MEA and Saudi should join SkyTeam this year.......definitely not the right Alliance for El Al.

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):
How about Star Alliance (EgyptAir) and OneWorld (Royal Jordanian)? BTW. I think Saudia is not an official member according to the SkyTeam website.

Well, Egypt and Jordan are the only Arab countries with a "friendly" relationship with Israel.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4430 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17172 times:

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 15):

How about Star Alliance (EgyptAir) and OneWorld (Royal Jordanian)? BTW. I think Saudia is not an official member according to the SkyTeam website.

You're correct SV still isn't a Skyteam member officially, but are scheduled to become a member this year. BTW how are Lebanon - Israel relations these days (as MEA is also scheduled to join in 2012)?

BTW At least Egypt and Jordan have diplomatic relations with Israel..


User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17083 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 19):
BTW how are Lebanon - Israel relations these days (as MEA is also scheduled to join in 2012)?

Lebanon - Israel is never an easy relation....probably the most difficult between Israel and another country.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 17027 times:
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Why not Star Alliance? I know it's saturated already but it's the only one that could work. They could feed Turkish Airlines' and EgyptAir's hubs since obviously TLV can never compete with those two.

User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16813 times:

Quoting trex8 (Reply 14):
As LJ pointed out that didn't stop a Taiwanese carrier joining 2 mainland Chinese carriers and they are technically still in a civil war!

Yes, but the PRC/Taiwan debacle is purely a political fight over whether Taiwan is really independent or not. China says its their territory, Taiwan says they're free. Same with Tibet; it wants freedom, China says its their territory too.

Regardless, at the end of the day, China will recognize a Taiwanese citizen and freely let them into their country, and vice versa.

That's not the same issue with Israel and other Middle Eastern countries, particularly the very strict Islamic ones such as Egypt, the KSA, Iran, Syria etc. You are not permitted to enter into some of those nations if your passport bears a stamp from Israel.

Not to mention, does the strife between the PRC and Taiwan even remotely resemble the relationships between Israel and most Middle Eastern nations over the decades? As someone pointed out, relationships are pretty much only diplomatic with a small handful of ME countries.

What makes that situation even MORE tangled are the fact that Politics AND Religion are involved there.

Quoting milemaster (Reply 17):
I thought that LY was for all intents and purposes effectively in Oneworld. I've flown DFW-MAD-TLV TLV-LHR-DFW seamlessly with AA/BA/LY and earn full AAdvantage across with thru ticketing and baggage.

Funny you mention that. A lot of people I know who have been traveling to Israel recently (I can think of at least 10) seem to route through MAD on IB.

Fares must be competitive.



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineKiwinlondon From New Zealand, joined Dec 2011, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16378 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
That's not the same issue with Israel and other Middle Eastern countries, particularly the very strict Islamic ones such as Egypt, the KSA, Iran, Syria etc. You are not permitted to enter into some of those nations if your passport bears a stamp from Israel.

Off topic. You can enter Egypt with an Israeli stamp in your passport legally. Whether the border agent will let you in.....that may be a different story!!

Kiwinlondon


User currently offlinekhpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 16317 times:

Looks like their idea of starting their own alliance didnt work out so well LOL
  
El Al To Found 4th Global Airline Alliance (by castroprauxel Aug 17 2010 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16197 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 21):
Why not Star Alliance?

I'm guessing LH wouldn't like the "internal" competition, they're doing pretty well in the Israeli market.


User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Reply 25, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16607 times:
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Quoting racko (Reply 26):

Maybe something in the style of Adria and Croatia, Star Alliance member but only to feed Lufthansa's network,


User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2330 posts, RR: 11
Reply 26, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16782 times:

Like the red star of David not being accepted in the red cross and crescent union, I think this is true. Because it's Israel they are not accepted, so that's what he is saying... In other words...

Boaz.



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 27, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16843 times:

I think he may have been poking fun at the fact that they are Jewish and the joke went nowhere/came out wrong. Kinda like Joan Rivers always makes fun of the fact that she's Jewish.

User currently offlineturjo101 From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16821 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 22):
That's not the same issue with Israel and other Middle Eastern countries, particularly the very strict Islamic ones such as Egypt, the KSA, Iran, Syria etc. You are not permitted to enter into some of those nations if your passport bears a stamp from Israel.

News bulletins with such stupidity should be avoided simply because: a) it's bound to offend someone, b) inaccuracies like the one above is plentiful.

1) Egypt has not been in a state of war with Israel since 1982, and has had diplomatic relations since then, and therefore Israelis and those with Israeli stamps on their passport can go in.

2) KSA and Iran don't bar people with Israeli stamps but people with Israeli passports, as they refuse to recognize the State of Israel, and still call that area Palestine...

3) Syria is a strict Islamic country ?!? ...its run by a fascist Arab nationalist family, just like Saddam Hussein...they don't give a rat's a** about religion...as long as they get to stay in power. Their beef with Israel has to do with "still being in a state of war since 1973, and the continuous occupation of the Golan Heights since then"...that is why they wont let people in with Israeli stamps on their passport...

Its not impossible for me to have some inaccuracy in the 3 points I mentioned...but none of this has anything to do with aviation, so we should avoid this all together.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6217 posts, RR: 30
Reply 29, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16488 times:
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The article is so poorly written that I believe basing any intelligent discussion on it is just a waste of time. Maybe if someone could post a different piece of news on same situation we could have something different develop from it?

User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16318 times:

They do have a lot of baggage, no flights on Saturday, TLV being an aweful airport to connect, limited route network, bad relations with the FAA which limit expansion or codesharing with US carriers. Also what do they bring to the table, OW has RJ right next door, *A has TK and Egypt air right there, ST will have SV and MEA soon (will say RB seems like a perfect candidate for ST)

I think it is more of an issue that area is covered extremely well versus the Jewishness


User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 31, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16236 times:

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 30):
News bulletins with such stupidity should be avoided simply because: a) it's bound to offend someone, b) inaccuracies like the one above is plentiful.

Not sure if this is in reference to the the article itself or to what I posted, but I apologize if my post came off as offensive.

I have friends of multiple faith backgrounds and by no means meant to offend anyone. I've heard versions from both sides of the fence, and so the lines become blurred in reference to what the policy is....such as....

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 30):
2) KSA and Iran don't bar people with Israeli stamps but people with Israeli passports, as they refuse to recognize the State of Israel, and still call that area Palestine...

...this one. I was previously informed that no matter what passport you held, or your nationality, you are not allowed into the KSA or Iran with an Israeli passport stamp, hence why you have option of receiving it on a separate piece of paper to put into your passport when one travels to Israel. Sorry if I was misinformed.

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 30):
Its not impossible for me to have some inaccuracy in the 3 points I mentioned...but none of this has anything to do with aviation, so we should avoid this all together.

You're 100% correct. But I think that it isn't necessarily overstepping boundaries to at least acknowledge that there are challenges for El Al, or any other Israeli carriers, to face in terms of joining a global alliance based on political and religious tension. Clearly, you know it isn't a hush-hush topic when the CEO himself is stating that himself, but then again, that also brings into question the whole premise of this article, which is pretty dodgy to begin with. So, I uphold your overall viewpoint here.

Again, sorry if I offended anyone....



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 32, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15999 times:

Quoting ordjoe (Reply 31):
They do have a lot of baggage, no flights on Saturday, TLV being an aweful airport to connect, limited route network, bad relations with the FAA which limit expansion or codesharing with US carriers. Also what do they bring to the table, OW has RJ right next door, *A has TK and Egypt air right there, ST will have SV and MEA soon (will say RB seems like a perfect candidate for ST)

And there's a non-trivial chance that Star might hit the jackpot by bringing QR on board.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15894 times:

Do they literally or metaphorically mean "we're Jews"? What a strange comment..


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineturjo101 From Canada, joined Apr 2008, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15793 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):
Again, sorry if I offended anyone....

Don't be sorry, Its not what you said, but overall possibility of this article turning a.net into a forum for bashing other ethnicity.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 32):

...this one. I was previously informed that no matter what passport you held, or your nationality, you are not allowed into the KSA or Iran with an Israeli passport stamp, hence why you have option of receiving it on a separate piece of paper to put into your passport when one travels to Israel. Sorry if I was misinformed.

The reasons for me to challenge this is the Jewish population of Iran (there are 50 000+), some of whom go to Israel for religious pilgrimages, and other ceremonies and then return home, usually flying RJ, TK and MS. Also my cousin's husband who used to visit Israel for religious reasons, and simultaneously worked for Lockheed in KSA...not sure what formalities he had to go through to make this happen...but will find out.


User currently offlineftornik From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 15684 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
I'd think the reason they can't join an alliance is because they don't have much to offer the alliance, not because "they're Jews." Very strange statement.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Quite simply LY doesn't have much to offer an alliance. In many ways Israel is like Jamaica, they're both great places to visit, but relatively few people change planes there.


User currently offlinejustbala From India, joined Feb 2006, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15513 times:

Quoting Kiwinlondon (Reply 23):

There is no problem entering Egypt with an Israeli visa.Infact Egypt and Israel have a land border at Taba where u can actually drive across from one country to another.

If I remember correct, Israeli citizens dont need a visa to go to Sinai.

BTW this statement reminds me of all the hopeless politicos, who use religion as the last ditch measure to prop up a failing campaign!!  



Flown IC , 9W , SQ , SV , GF , S2 , LX , IT , LH , OS , DN , AC , MH , 6E , MI , AA , TG , EK , QR , SG , TK , KW, UA ,
User currently offlineIAD380 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 804 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15234 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):
They can't, because they are Israeli, not because they are Jewish.



Exactly! The geopolitical situation in the Middle East is the primary reason why El Al can't joint an alliance. Despite its central geographic location, TLV cannot be a hub for any alliance until there is a regional peace settlement. Ironically, I doubt that IR or PK could join an airline alliance in the current global political environment either. Even if the Middle East conflict was peacefully resolved, El Al probably couldn't join an alliance until it modernizes its antiquated fleet, improves its mediocre service, and resolves its CAT II status in the United States. Although there are many reasons why LY can't join an alliance at the present time, the fact that its owners are Jewish is not one of those reasons.


User currently offlinejustbala From India, joined Feb 2006, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15192 times:

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 35):
Also my cousin's husband who used to visit Israel for religious reasons, and simultaneously worked for Lockheed in KSA...not sure what formalities he had to go through to make this happen...but will find out.

India issues a "Israel-only" passport in addition to your regular passport. You can use that for your visits to Israel and the regular one for other countries.

Till a few years back, Israeli visa used to be stapled on and could be removed after travel,

Citizens of countries that have dual citizenship can avoid this problem easily.



Flown IC , 9W , SQ , SV , GF , S2 , LX , IT , LH , OS , DN , AC , MH , 6E , MI , AA , TG , EK , QR , SG , TK , KW, UA ,
User currently offlineSEA From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 236 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13940 times:

Quoting ftornik (Reply 35):
Quite simply LY doesn't have much to offer an alliance. In many ways Israel is like Jamaica, they're both great places to visit, but relatively few people change planes there.

This. I'm not sure why you'd choose TLV over an airport like IST or DXB.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6220 posts, RR: 11
Reply 40, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 13252 times:

Let's not forget, who in their right mind would want to fly on EL AL if they are going on to another destination other than Israel. The security questioning/hassles that airline puts you through alone would turn people off. I am sure the existing alliances are more than happy with the current members in the region, LY just does not bring anything new to the table.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineilyag From Israel, joined Jan 2001, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12535 times:

The statement is poorly phrased, but it is correct - LY cannot join an alliance mostly because of politics, nothing else. If alliances look for valuable carriers, what RJ is doing in OW and how EgyptAir got into Star? That said, LY does seem to be strongly connected to OW, which is probably good enough for attracting customers. Star is very strong in TLV on its own, SkyTeam less so, but still offers several options.

User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 42, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 12427 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 12):
They can't, because they are Israeli, not because they are Jewish.

Jewish Israelis do not differentiate between the two. Just as Muslims think of themselves as one people and thus claim that if someone from a particular nation is scrutinized due to their nationality, it's an anti-Muslim thing.

But either way, I think he is correct. LY would not be accepted because too many members of any alliance would block the application.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 29):
The article is so poorly written that I believe basing any intelligent discussion on it is just a waste of time. Maybe if someone could post a different piece of news on same situation we could have something different develop from it?

True. What I gathered from the mess was that a lot was missing.

The bill in question was probably put forward in the Kinesett partly to promote membership alliance, or as an excuse, and the LY guy was responding to this assertion by saying "you can pass all the bills you want compensating passengers for delays, etc., but it won't help because we are airline non-grata for other reasons anyway. It won't help." The airlines size quote was not in response to membership in an alliance, but in response to why it's hard to re-accommodate pax during irops. He's making excuses as to why the problems persists with Israeli airlines but maybe not with bigger airlines. Load of crap, but that's another story.

The article just leaves out the parts that would make it more clear.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12249 times:

Talk about a poorly written description of whatever the hell that article is even trying to talk about.


However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 11666 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 42):
But either way, I think he is correct. LY would not be accepted because too many members of any alliance would block the application.

It just sounds like more persecution complex to me - LY could have easily joined Oneworld in the founding days, and I doubt anyone would have batted an eyelid. OK, RJ is there now - but would they REALLY block LY?

And even if it was THAT contentious - certain carriers within the alliance could simply avoid codesharing with each other.

Aer Lingus did not codeshare with everyone when it was in Oneworld - even though there was demand say for example from DUB to SYD, or HKG. Nothing was ever really penned with Qantas or Cathay. And there are plenty of such examples throughout the alliances.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3279 posts, RR: 15
Reply 45, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11362 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
Even if they *have* a real hub at TLV, who would want to transit there and go through all that security hassle for no reason ?

Have you ever been there? It's less hassle than in the US...very straightforward and common-sense.



.......
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 46, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11191 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 45):
Have you ever been there? It's less hassle than in the US...very straightforward and common-sense.

And it's a really nice airport as well...... would be great as a transfer point.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 55
Reply 47, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 11054 times:

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 28):
2) KSA and Iran don't bar people with Israeli stamps but people with Israeli passports, as they refuse to recognize the State of Israel, and still call that area Palestine...

= This is incorrect. You cannot enter KSA (or most of the Arab world) with ANY hint of having been to Israel. I was even denied entry on a EK flight at CDG transiting DXB to go to SIN. The only time in my life I have been offloaded.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 48, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10809 times:

Quoting shamrock604 (Reply 44):

Aer Lingus did not codeshare with everyone when it was in Oneworld

Before that, they were in the Atlantic Excellence Alliance with DL, Austrian, Swissair, etc. Did they codeshare with anyone else at that time?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently onlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8568 posts, RR: 13
Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10758 times:
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Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Before that, they were in the Atlantic Excellence Alliance with DL, Austrian, Swissair, etc.

Are you sure aboout that? I don't remember them being involved in that at all. From what I remember it was DL OS SR and SN.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10686 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 49):
Are you sure aboout that? I don't remember them being involved in that at all. From what I remember it was DL OS SR and SN.

Perhaps you're right. Maybe it was just a codeshare with DL, but I did think they were in the alliance.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4175 posts, RR: 12
Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 10691 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 48):
Before that, they were in the Atlantic Excellence Alliance with DL, Austrian, Swissair, etc. Did they codeshare with anyone else at that time?

No, they were not in Atlantic Excellence, but they did codeshare with Delta at around the same time on all their routes from the US.

In fact, EI have been in bed with every legacy airline left in the US at one time or another except US Airways.



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User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10184 times:
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Quoting ilyag (Reply 41):
how EgyptAir got into Star

Are you seriously wondering why Egyptair is in Star Alliance? Look at Egypt's population, O&D demand and on top of it all, look at their African network. That is why they are in it.
What would El Al offer in return? A limited network covered by outdated equipment? Alliances are a businesses, not charity organizations.

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 45):
Have you ever been there? It's less hassle than in the US...very straightforward and common-sense.

Yes, have you? It was the most disgusting experience in my life. They give you cards with numbers depending on how suspicious they are of you. Passport control is a real interrogation...

On our flight from Belgrade there was a woman with her daughter, and they had Palestinian citizenship (however they carried their Serbian passports). The Israeli police put them in a glass box, yes, a glass box for 5 hours. During that period this policeman was interrogating them of why they didn't say they had Palestinian passports bla bla
He was basically shouting at them and telling them how their entry into Israel depends on his decision.

This is just one of many horror stories from TLV. It should not be called security but the ideal of paranoia. Unless they change this they should not even dream of considering TLV as a hub.
In addition to all that, they should not hide behind politics for not being part of any alliance, especially not them.


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 53, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 10053 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 20):
Why not Star Alliance? I know it's saturated already but it's the only one that could work. They could feed Turkish Airlines' and EgyptAir's hubs since obviously TLV can never compete with those two.
Quoting ju068 (Reply 25):
Maybe something in the style of Adria and Croatia, Star Alliance member but only to feed Lufthansa's network,

Well, it is matter of pride. LY has its own long-haul network...why on Earth would they fill other planes? In a strange way, being part of any alliance would not help this airline.



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 9907 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 53):
Well, it is matter of pride. LY has its own long-haul network...why on Earth would they fill other planes? In a strange way, being part of any alliance would not help this airline.

I know it wouldn't, I am just saying that if they are that desperate to use the ''coz we're Jews'' card then they could aim for Star Alliance. However, no one is saying that they need to close down their own intercontinental network, but just like that they can't expect TLV to become anything like Cairo or Istanbul (because of politics).

Every member of any alliance is there because of something it offers to that alliance, at this point, the only thing El Al can provide is feed- which anyway is already well covered by other airlines.


User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15745 posts, RR: 27
Reply 55, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9721 times:

Quoting NYC2TLV (Thread starter):
Can't Join Alliance Because We're Jewish  

It's the circumcision thing isn't it?   

Quoting trex8 (Reply 14):
As LJ pointed out that didn't stop a Taiwanese carrier joining 2 mainland Chinese carriers and they are technically still in a civil war!

They're too busy having a custody battle over Jeremy Lin, who was born and raised in California.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinejustbala From India, joined Feb 2006, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 9359 times:

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 47):
Quoting turjo101 (Reply 28):
2) KSA and Iran don't bar people with Israeli stamps but people with Israeli passports, as they refuse to recognize the State of Israel, and still call that area Palestine...

= This is incorrect. You cannot enter KSA (or most of the Arab world) with ANY hint of having been to Israel. I was even denied entry on a EK flight at CDG transiting DXB to go to SIN. The only time in my life I have been offloaded.

Alex - Saudi, Iran,Syria , Kuwait and Lebanon will not issue you a visa or allow entry of they find an Israeli visa/stamp in your passport - Saudi even to the extent of having a stamp fromTaba or the Jordanian land border crossing.

However rest of the Middle East and GCC are fine with it. I have my UAE residence permit , stamped right next to my Israeli visa and I have gone to UAE,Bahrain and Qatar with a passport that carried Israeli visa.

I think the ground staff at CDG was wrong to offload you - UAE does not have a policy that it says it would refuse entry to someone with a Israeli visa and you were transiting. Did u follow that up?!

Quoting ju068 (Reply 52):
Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 45):
Have you ever been there? It's less hassle than in the US...very straightforward and common-sense.

Yes, have you? It was the most disgusting experience in my life. They give you cards with numbers depending on how suspicious they are of you. Passport control is a real interrogation...

The TLV experience can be quite different based on the color of your skin, your religion and how your name sounds.

Entry for me has never been a problem, although the hoops that we have to jump around while checking in is a big downer - understand the need for it, but if I have an hassle free alternative - wud choose that.

My colleague (an Indian Hindu) has had a horrible experience every time he entered and left Israel, simply because his name sounded Arabic. He was taken to a windowless interrogation room and detained for over 4 hours with a lot of cross questioning and baggage search. We had to take him out of the project after his second trip, as he considered the experience too traumatic.



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User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7540 posts, RR: 17
Reply 57, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

Quoting turjo101 (Reply 28):
KSA and Iran don't bar people with Israeli stamps but people with Israeli passports

Like many things in the Middle East there is no reliable rule here. For example this is what the British government says on its web site that offers advice to travellers to Saudi at:

http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travel-and-...dle-east-north-africa/saudi-arabia

says

"You may be refused entry to Saudi Arabia if your passport contains evidence of previous travel to Israel or indicates Israel as your birthplace."

Certainly when I was travelling to the Middle East that, admittedly, was now some years back, the British government had no hesitation in responding positively to my compoany's request to issue me with a second passport. It is also worth noting that when I visited Israel I always asked the immigration desk at the airport not to stamp my passport and they never did.

Incidentally the above web site also says:

"It is illegal to hold two passports in Saudi Arabia; second passports will be confiscated by the immigration authorities if they are discovered."

I am guessing that this is because people like myself had two passports so that wee could travel to Israel on one and obtain a Saudi visa on another.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6220 posts, RR: 11
Reply 58, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7555 times:

I have travelled on El AlL and been to Israel, I was put through an over 2 hour security search boarding my flight in LAX - a big hassle and definitely not worth it. Hence why I said anyone would be crazy to fly on that airline if your final destination is not Israel. I fly on a weekly basis (almost daily) here in the US and I have never gone through even a slice of what I went to when flying on LY, to add insult to injury the onboard experience is not better than flyinbg on a US based carrier.

I guess if you are Israeli your experience on LY can be very different.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlinehohd From United States of America, joined May 2008, 425 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

It may be hassle to connect in Tel Aviv, but who wants to connect in Saudi Arabia either. If there is a problem, you are stuck in the airport, cannot leave the airport.

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 47):
This is incorrect. You cannot enter KSA (or most of the Arab world) with ANY hint of having been to Israel. I was even denied entry on a EK flight at CDG transiting DXB to go to SIN. The only time in my life I have been offloaded.

Saludos,
A.

UAE now allows persons with a Israeli stamp, but not Israeli passports. KSA, Kuwait, Iran, Yemen do not allow any passport with Israeli stamp.


User currently offlineq120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 279 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Everyone keeps saying its a hassle to connect in Tel Aviv, why is it a hassle?
You are just "connecting" to another flight, its not like you have to go through security or customs, your already in the secured section. Perhaps because it is Tel Aviv, mabye you will have to go through a secondary screening prior to your flight.



However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 61, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3665 times:

Quoting q120 (Reply 60):
Perhaps because it is Tel Aviv, mabye you will have to go through a secondary screening prior to your flight.

3-5 minute secondary screening x 400 pax = a lot more connection time required

And it's not like EL AL's service/seat is SQ quality, so definitely not missing much.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7540 posts, RR: 17
Reply 62, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting q120 (Reply 60):
Everyone keeps saying its a hassle to connect in Tel Aviv, why is it a hassle?

My recollection is that security is at the gate, not as you move from land side to air side as it is elsewhere.. This is to ensure that passengers are checked effectively as they board the aircraft. In my days of visiting Israel I was interviewed twice before boarding an LY aircraft, presumably to ensure my responses were consistent. This also applies to boarding LY aircraft elsewhere.

LY had their own dedicated gate at LHR which was abnormally large to allow completion of their complex security procedures. The pro was that security was so tight that you were probably safer flying LY to TLV than by an alternative carrier. But it is difficult to imagine why you would connect through a TLV hub if there was an alternative routing to your final destination.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2739 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 62):
My recollection is that security is at the gate, not as you move from land side to air side as it is elsewhere.. This is to ensure that passengers are checked effectively as they board the aircraft. In my days of visiting Israel I was interviewed twice before boarding an LY aircraft, presumably to ensure my responses were consistent. This also applies to boarding LY aircraft elsewhere.

How is this different than flights to the USA like in Hamburg or SYD? Unless its changed, I had to go through normal airport security to get airside, then another security checkpoint to enter gate for CO at HAM, or to enter the USA departures area in SYD (for QF).



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7540 posts, RR: 17
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 63):
How is this different than flights to the USA like in Hamburg or SYD?

I do not know as I have never flown from either HAM or SYD to the USA.

However as far as I am aware the especially large departure lounge with security desks and controls at LHR is the only one of its type at LHR and it is exclusively used by LY. It is certainly very different in both size and layout to any of the other air side gates I have used at LHR over many years or at any other airport I have flown from in Africa, Asia, Europe, North America or, with the exception of TLV, in the Middle East including from Iran, Kuwait, Saudi, Syria and the UAE.

Using this gate at LHR one passes through the usual security control point used for all passengers. There they are primarily interested in what you are carrying about your person or in your hand luggage. At the LY LHR gate you enter another security area manned by Israelis. They are primarily interested in who you are, why you are flying to TLV and what you will be doing in Israel.


User currently onlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 45):
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
Even if they *have* a real hub at TLV, who would want to transit there and go through all that security hassle for no reason ?

Have you ever been there? It's less hassle than in the US...very straightforward and common-sense.

How many U.S. carriers have a 3-hour check-in requirement for Y class passengers? LY's check-in requirements at TLV from their website:

Economy - 3 hours
Business class - 2.5 hours
First class - 1.5 hours

What is the minimum connnecting time requirement for passengers who may be connecting at TLV, rather than originating there? I would expect connnecting passengers would also be subject to the same stringent security requirements, especially if they're arriving in TLV on a carrier other than LY.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 64):
However as far as I am aware the especially large departure lounge with security desks and controls at LHR is the only one of its type at LHR and it is exclusively used by LY.

Well, sounds like LY spent the money to not cram everyone in.

HAM? We were crammed into a very small space that wasn't really big enough to hold a 752 worth of pax.
At SYD, the USA departure area is also overcrowded and you end up sitting on the floor.

In both cases, they recheck your bags, recheck your passport, and make you wait. Not quite the profiling LY does, but certainly not a relaxing experience either.

I'm assuming they still do this, but haven't been abroad since 2008. Will find out how they do it in MUN in March.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineNYC2TLV From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2151 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 65):
What is the minimum connnecting time requirement for passengers who may be connecting at TLV, rather than originating there? I would expect connnecting passengers would also be subject to the same stringent security requirements, especially if they're arriving in TLV on a carrier other than LY.

I don't think that anyone knows. I once had a connection in TLV for the 2010 FIFA World Cup. My itinerary was JFK-TLV-JNB with a connection time of an hour and a half. But my flight from JFK was canceled so I had to take an earlier flight and overnight in JRS. I have been told by colleagues that the desk for connecting flights (to the right before you go down the ramps to passport control) is never open as no one ever connects. Not even from a *A flight to a different *A flight.


User currently offlineAleksandar From Serbia, joined Jul 2000, 3236 posts, RR: 31
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 54):

But, it is so convenient to use politics as an excuse  



R-E-S-P-E-C-T
User currently offlineftornik From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1516 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 42):

But either way, I think he is correct. LY would not be accepted because too many members of any alliance would block the application.

I'm not sure that other members would block the application but consider the case of someone travelling from the U.S. to India on X-Alliance and finding out that the code-share partner was LY and the connecting point was TLV. I actuallly like Israel but even so, I don't think I would stand up to the pre-security grilling!

That fact makes them a difficult code-share partner.


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