Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
B717-unsuccessful?  
User currently offlineBoeingfan4life From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Do you think the 717 has been so far unsuccessful due to slow sales? Please give your thoughts.

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1217 times:

Too many seats and too expensive to be an RJ? Too few seats and too unique to be a mailine jetliner?

A possible stigma attatched to it that it's an McD product that Boeing has no heart to support it?

I hope and feel the 717 's gonna be a late bloomer, though. The design is just too good.


User currently offlineHeavymetal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1195 times:

Sorry, the word was "mainline"

User currently offlineDTA From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1142 times:

Boeing have been sporting the 717, alot. The fact they changed the name from MD-95 to 717 shows they supported the aircraft. Quiet frankly, Boeing are probably happy to sit back and enjoy the orders they currently have, although the 100-seat jet sales might increase later on. ERJ-145/CRJ-200 customers will want to expand and the 717 would seem good for high density routes. The 717 is also good for short-hops been, for example, islands, like AerBal do. Hopefully, sales of the 717 will pick up soon


User currently offlineBoeing757fan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1129 times:

I dont know if the 717 is successful yet. But, It sure is going to make AirTran successful.



User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1117 times:


There's that "success" word again, so subjective and tough to pin down. Though the 717 does seem like it has the right stuff, and deserves a future (heck if there's interest for an NG 737, then seems to me there oughtta be too for an NG DC-9 as well).

Tough market conditions right now though. So maybe some folks (especially over at Boeing) gonna just have to keep the faith 'n stay the course, with it, the next little while.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1113 times:

The 717 is fast approaching that critical point where it needs to get orders or else the LGB plant is gonna have to be axed. Boeing is DESPERATE to move those babies to WHOEVER wants them at WHATEVER terms they prefer. The next few months will be crucial.

User currently offlineBoeing757fan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1094 times:

What are the current set orders? I know Midex is getting them, Hawaiian and AirTran are getting a bunch. I heard ProAir is going to start back with like 11 MD80's and 717's. I have no idea how they will do it, they couldnt make it with their few 737's. Although, you have more flexibility with more planes in case of mech. probs or delays. I am hoping they get about 9 B717's and only 2 MD80's.

Well see.





User currently offlineElal106 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 975 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1085 times:

there are the 3 for turmekistan air,
the hawaiian air ones, span air ones, TWA ones, permokoe group (i dont remember their name), Airtran maybe, and those with midwest express......maybe more for impulse?



User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6260 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1048 times:

Many of you may not remember that the 757 was not doing well at all at an equivalnt stage of life. It has become very successful though. Even I had doubts, in 1987, that it would ever reach sales of 250 but it has passed 1000. give the 717 a chance, it is in a market by itself.


Is grammar no longer taught is schools? Saying "me and her" or some such implies illiteracy.
User currently offlineFBU 4EVER! From Norway, joined Jan 2001, 998 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1044 times:

The 717 is going to be a big success in it's market.It is in head-on competition with the 737-600,and apart from SAS' large launch order a few years ago,hardly anyone has ordered the "piglet".There are rumors that Boeing will axe the 737-600 because of slack (read non-existent) sales.That will really pave the way for the 717.


"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1030 times:

Does anyone else recall the early years of the 737? It was the first U.S. built aircraft not to be launched by a U.S. airline. At the time that the 737-100 went into service, the DC-9 was the aircraft of the times. It really wasn't until the mid 1970s did the 737 really pick up orders. The problem with the 717 is that airlines are afraid to order it, fearing that Boeing will cancel the program. The fact that the launch customer for it was a very young airline (Valujet had been flying for barely 2 years when the initial MD-95 order was announced), and that they remained the only airline on the order book for the design for several years did not help matters at all. But I see that the 717 could become the choice of smaller airlines looking for a cost-effective aircraft that can handle the load of being used upwards of 12 hours a day on flights generally lasting less than 90 minutes. The RJs on the market today can meet these same challenges, except for one thing, they don't have the pax capacity to match up with the 717. And any clear competitor to the 717 is at least 2 years away from entering service, and in that timeframe, Boeing can drum up more orders and have them delivered before an airline would be able to get a 90 pax RJ from Bombardier or Embraer. The 717 has a future, especially in light of recent additions to scope clauses in the pilots contracts of several airlines. Mainline services to smaller cities will need a plane that fills the gap between the largest RJ allowed in many scope clauses (70 seaters, and only a limited number of those) and the 737-800 (the most common new type 737 in operation in the U.S.). The marketplace is changing once again, and the darling of the late 90s, the RJ is facing a maxed out future, and airlines will need an aircraft to bridge the gap between the aircraft of their regional feeders and mainline, and I really doubt the CRJ900 and the ERJ-175 will make it onto the rosters of a major airline.

User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2896 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1006 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The 736 and 712 are similar in capacity, yes, but different in mission... just as the 318 and 712 are similar in capacity but different in mission.

The 736 and 318 are for long, thin routes. They are pretty heavy and not as economical for short-range ops as the 717.

The 717 is great for the short-range flights. It doesn't have near the range as the 736 or 318, but it doesn't have to -- that's not what it's intended for.

I think the 717 will be a long-term success. Boeing seems to be patient with it -- I don't think that they're desperate at this point to move them. Smart strategy, if you ask me... the 737-100 and 757 launches are good history to learn from.


User currently offlineOO-VEG From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 1081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 963 times:

Just wait untill the F100 aircraft need to be replaced. Then we could see some customers like KLM UK, American Airlines, TAM... but that moment hasn't arrived jet and may take some years....

User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 951 times:

I hope NW orders some.

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 940 times:

Anyway just hope there can be a bit of patience (and even faith in the future!) about what'll happen, it's a fine little mainline jet and particularly if the scope clauses don't get a lot of major re-working next couple years or so, I think the orders for it might start a-rollin' in by about that time. At least with American carriers anyway, in Europe and maybe elsewhere figure carriers'll opt for seventy and ninety-seater RJs instead, expecting passengers to not mind the lower comfort level.

Only real drawback for American carriers apart from higher sticker price might be fleet commonality issues. But that'll go away if they really sell truckloads of 'em, at some point, even complete with variants and the whole bit.


User currently offlineWilcharl From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1160 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 899 times:

Boeing is not stupid, they are not going to put money into a dead end and unsucessful product. The 717 "assembly line" is up and running, and orders are starting to come in. Remember the 757 orders started out slow. NWA is running the DC-9 until 2010, even though they origional were part of the MD-95 proposal along with SAS (both pulled out) I fully believe that NW will around 2005 place a large order for the 717. Other airlines I see as potential customers are Spirit, Air Canada USAir if they last. I seriously doubt we will see the A-318 boom. The 717 is the ideal aircraft for low ground time, high utilization. The aircraft is routenily turned in 25 minutes of ground time, sitting lower does not require belt loaders to do an easy downloa and upload. Boeing has a winner with the 717. I do see the -100 model (the sport) being less sucessful with the RJ market flooded, but the 717 is NOT A REGIONAL JET. It is in the same size class as the 737-600, but is better suited ofr the shorter 1000 mile range flights.

User currently offlineAlaskaMVP From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 894 times:

How about making a regional jet derivant of the 717? I'm talking about shortening the fuselage to build an 60-80 seater. Would it be Boeing's easiest entry into that market? Could it operate with more efficient engines, at a lighter weight, etc?

Given the great operating history of the DC-9/MD-80, I'd much rather fly one of those on short hops than these claustaphobic little regional jets. It could be the wide-body of the short hoppers Smile


User currently offlineTimmsp From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 887 times:

From what I've seen of the TW 717's it seems that they would be a great replacement for DC-9 series aircraft.

Compared to the A319, does anyone know whether they are as efficient or economical?


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 859 times:

I don't see Air Canada helping out the 717 order-book, 'least not anytime soon and maybe not ever, since they're so hugely committed now to the 320 line which do the lion's share of the medium-traffic domestic runs nowadays for AC, and just nowhere near the same-sized market niche for them in Canada for thin-but-not-RJ-thin,1000mi-long-or-less-type runs, that there is just about all over the States.

Too many 320s in the fleet already, and more arriving soon so just for fleet commonality, the prospects appear slim. Though maybe there's a chance, say if their new regional spinoff doesn't pan out as planned and if the scope clause stays in place so bigger RJs for mainline AC are still basically excluded. Or even if Boeing decides to be somewhat persuasive with price or politics, who knows. In that case maybe they could conceivably get some 717s, for runs like short transborders outta YYZ to places like CVG, that are now served by the last of the F28s.


User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 854 times:

The B-717 is the first plane to be assembled on a moving line (great article about it in LA Times a while back); I guess there's some talk of doing the same with 737s too. Does anyone know whether Boeing used this increase in productivity to decrease the sticker price, and increase its saleability?


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineWilcharl From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1160 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 847 times:

Mark D

I guess I kind of saw the 717 as a niche filler between the 'bus and the RJs and with Air Canada being a 9 opperator, I have no idea about thier load factors or anything it just seemed logical for 1000 mile routes.


User currently offlineIMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6260 posts, RR: 34
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 846 times:

On the very short, thin routes, 100 to 500 miles nothing in the 100 seat category can come close to the 717. The A318, as I stated earlier is a great aircaft but suited more for the long (1000 to 2500) routes that need an aircraft in the 100 seat range.


Is grammar no longer taught is schools? Saying "me and her" or some such implies illiteracy.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 831 times:

Wilcharl- I guess I kind of saw the 717 as a niche filler between the 'bus and the RJs and with Air Canada being a 9 opperator, I have no idea about thier load factors or anything it just seemed logical for 1000 mile routes.

Yeah if there were way more city-pairs of every sort, like there are in the States, that niche would be better-defined, for a carrier like Air Canada. They are a big DC9 operator, even with the ones they still use, just that not sure, particularly with the already-sizeable 320 fleet they got, if they're as eager to make the move to a different plane, which even if they ordered they'd probably only get a couple dozen of, tops.

Anyway all a mystery right now, have to wait for another couple months before the new regional spinoff gets unveiled and WestJet announces some new destinations in the East, and see where the chips fall, including equipment and scope-clause-wise, from all that.

I wouldn't be greatly surprised if they placed an order for some 717s sometime, though just not the next year or two as they retire planes and downsize, even while taking delivery of previously ordered Airbuses. Which doesn't help things for Boeing, as they could use the orders sooner rather than later.


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 824 times:

IMissPiedmont (I miss it too, btw Big grin)

For Air Canada, domestically there aren't that many routes meeting those qualifications, and for the ones that ven come close they'd use a couple DASH turboprops or maybe the older DC9s, 737 sometimes, even maybe a CRJ here or there,or BAe146, on either coast, instead, since it's much less pigeonholed at least as things stand now anyway. Not just because the fleet is so varied, age and typewise after the Canadian airlines merger, but also because a lot of the 'hundred passenger' runs are longer, where 320s rule the show already. But wait and see what the latest wave brings, not just of their financial performance but also of the new upcoming regional spinoff airline, and then it'll be clearer how much they or even the mainline Air Canada wants or needs a bunch of new 717s, for what they want to do in their business.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
YX B717 Sitting In The Desert, WHY? posted Wed Jul 1 2009 20:34:31 by YXwatcherMKE
What Have Been The Most UNsuccessful Rebrands? posted Thu Mar 5 2009 01:13:42 by TFFIP
Trying To Book On SY But Unsuccessful posted Mon Oct 6 2008 07:07:09 by JetBlueAUS
Has Production of the B717 Ceased? posted Sat Mar 15 2008 06:13:50 by Adman737
Airtran B717 At Daytona Speedway? posted Tue Feb 19 2008 04:25:28 by Falstaff
Was the B717 A Bust? posted Sun Aug 12 2007 05:37:38 by CactusOne
B717 Grounded By The Heat posted Tue Nov 28 2006 09:13:50 by Peh
Help With Regie Please (Airtran B717) posted Thu May 11 2006 00:23:35 by Gust
Big Day For The B717 posted Thu Apr 20 2006 14:50:49 by B6FA4ever
Last B717 Ready For Delivery From LGB posted Sun Apr 16 2006 10:22:51 by Laxintl