Independence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 165 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 23834 times:
Wow.....I would be somewhat shaken seeing that bird rotate so late and climb so slowly.
Does anyone have the registration? Is it a "pre-X" model with the older CFM engines?
"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
kaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 11950 posts, RR: 37 Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 23530 times:
I don't know, of course, but I'd be quite surprised if they performed a takeoff from an intersection; in icy conditions and with a high weight (for nonstop to CMB), you'd want every last inch, in case you need to abort (and it looks like they needed it!); I always thought that full takeoff power was a requirement during icy conditions?
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2373 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 23462 times:
At Heathrow it's quite common to get an intersection departure, remember snow on the ground does not always equal ice on the runway. You can have one without the other.
CitationJet From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2230 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 23290 times:
Remember that the A340 does not really climb, it relies on the curvature of the earth to gain altitude.
GSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2745 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 22997 times:
I remember being on one of KL's old 743 combi a/c out of ORD on a night departure once, and wondering during the takeoff roll if we were going to go off the runway.... Then it climbed shockingly slowly, to the point that I wondered if there was a problem. I have no idea why that particular a/c took off that way. I understand the earlier A340 family a/c regularly perform this way, but it was a shock on a 747!
BA777ER236 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2006, 277 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 22783 times:
Quoting skipness1E (Reply 2): I was shocked to see a BMI A319 in a similar position not too long ago, I actually ducked.
In that case, you have NO idea of modern aircraft performance. There is NO way that a BMI captain would have taken an intersection departure without knowing and using the performance figures from that intersection! In any event, the performance would have allowed for an engine failure at V1 and clearing an altitude of 35 feet at the end of the TODA(take off distance available) which would be at the end of the 'clearway'. There is no way that you could be standing in the 'clearway', so the A319 - even on one engine would have been at least 28ft above your head (unless you are over 7ft tall!), so to 'duck' would be somewhat over cautious! None of the 09 departures would have been CLOSE to the scenario I have just described anyway!
Quoting kaitak (Reply 3): I don't know, of course, but I'd be quite surprised if they performed a takeoff from an intersection; in icy conditions and with a high weight (for nonstop to CMB), you'd want every last inch
lee
How icy was it? How could you possibly know? Just because the weather was cold has NO bearing on the runway braking action. The runways at LHR are high friction surfaces and are treated for ice as necessary, but it is VERY rare to have breaking action assessments and reports that are less than medium. If so, then such doubts as to the runway state would have been communicated to the crew and they would have planned accordingly.
All jets taking off at LHR (and other airports with long runways) will use take off performance that will maximise engine life, which means using the lowest amount of thrust (known as 'derated' or 'flex') that will achieve a 'safe' take off. There are several criteria here, but in general terms, the maximum derate permissable is equivalent to 25% of maximum rated thrust. When derating, there must still be sufficient runway remaining to either stop or continue at V1. If the take off is continued, there must be sufficient thrust available from the remaining engine (still at 'derated' thrust) for the aircraft to climb to the 'screen' height of 35ft at the end of the 'clearway' at V2 and then continue the climb to the engine out (EO) accelaration altitude (usually 1000ft above airfield level), accelerate, retract flaps and then climb to the minimum safe altitude (MSA). MSA is usually taken as sector safe altitude (SSA) within 25 nm of the airport. If there is insufficient terrain clearance during this manoeuvre whilst following the Standard Instrument Departure (SID), then there will be a published 'emergency turn' which will ensure terrain clearance and the crew will be obliged to follow it in an engine out scenario.
It is not uncommon for long haul jets to take most of the runway to get airbourne a long way down the runway using the above criteria and a 'derated' take off. For short haul jets it is less common, but not unknown!
greenjet From Ireland, joined Aug 2001, 924 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 22750 times:
According to ATI, the UK AAIB may be investigating this take-off.
"A late take-off performed by a SriLankan Airlines Airbus A340-300 from London Heathrow's runway 09R on 5 February, followed by a low climbing trajectory, may be under scrutiny by the UK authorities.
In response to a question from Flightglobal, the UK Air Accident Investigation Branch said only that it is investigating an incident on that date.
SriLankan Airlines was not immediately available to comment."
GSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2745 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 22693 times:
Quoting BA777ER236 (Reply 10): so the A319 - even on one engine would have been at least 28ft above your head (unless you are over 7ft tall!), so to 'duck' would be somewhat over cautious!
.....Um, I think the poster was just using a bit of exaggeration to make a point. Sense of humor, anyone??
GSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2745 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 22451 times:
Quoting AR385 (Reply 14): You should come down to MEX to do some spotting then. During the summer in particular, a full 744 will perform like you describe.
Before then, when we had the 742s, things were a lot more interesting.
I can only imagine - the definition of "hot and high" conditions! The experience I had was in cool to cold weather though...
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2373 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 22239 times:
Quoting BA777ER236 (Reply 10): In that case, you have NO idea of modern aircraft performance. There is NO way that a BMI captain would have taken etc etc
I have every idea actually, I was however shocked as it was VERY unusual to see an A319 as low as that A340 in the picture. I didn't consciously think it was a goner but I recall taking a step back as it was unusually low in comparison with all other departing traffic. In seven years of around and about LHR that was a first.
I was also rather happy to depart on a an A380 off 27L (same runway, opposite direction), from S4 ! I am well aware of the performance characteristics involved thanks, however it's rather human on such an occasion to step back and exclaim "Blimey that's a little out of the ordainary guv'nor!"
fiscal From Australia, joined Oct 2009, 288 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 22036 times:
I must admit that I was wondering when we would get off the ground when I flew Air Asia X a340 out of Stanstead. It's funny how that after traveling on many flights, you get a sense for what is normal and what is different.
CX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6341 posts, RR: 56 Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 21718 times:
Seeing how low they are, you really have to wonder whether they could have suffered an engine failure at V1 and still made it. The Air Canada A343 used to depart HKG a bit like this at the peak of summer. Russian cargo flights also seem to depart like this....they must adhere to a completely different set of performance rules as the rest of the world!
SASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 549 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 16667 times:
I must admit that the A340-300 usually needs a lot of runway. Then why does AF operate them on the CDG - SXM - CDG line? KLM make a fuel stop at BON because of the lenght of the runway at SXM.
But why is the A340 the only plane 'accused' of its long take off rolls? Back in the late 90s I loved to stand at the end of the runway at Schiphol to watch the 747-200/-300 departing during summer. Those dramatic take-offs were awesome! (Lifting up at the end of the runway and climbing out very slowly). Last summer we only had those Kallita B747-200s, awesome!
26 ghifty: Probably because the 747-200/-300 aren't as common as the A340...
27 zeke: The 340 does not need a lot of runway, it uses less runway than many twins if operated the same way. The misconception that it uses a lot of runway c
28 Max Q: Very well explained BA 777 but you can't let the facts get in the way of a good story, especially this hysterical post..
29 9w748capt: What the heck does the "ALK" in the thread title mean? some weird 3-letter identifier for UL?
30 lapper: ALK is the ICAO code for UL. Sri Lankan Airlines used to be called Air Lanka.
31 TCASAlert: I have seen this a few times at LHR, most notably with the SA A340 which seems to skim the tops of the lorries driving along the A30! It's UL's ICAO c
32 pumaknight: Moot point I suppose, but having stood for many a happy hour at LHR watching the heavies depart, this A340 would have made me stop and gasp...it is de
33 AirGabon: IB and AF use A340-300 from high airports in South America non-stop to MAD and CDG i.e BOG-CDG or BOG-MAD, MEX-MAD, in the past AF MEX-CDG. And don't
34 scbriml: The houses of Mytrle Avenue are a minimum of 150m south of the centre-line of 09R. 27L landings and 09R departures are not that close to those houses
35 GBLKD: Glad someone said it. No houses at all in it's path but it probrably scared the horses in the field behind Myrtle Ave a bit. The truck looks like it'
36 jwhite9185: I was in Staines earlier and i saw a ALK A343 fly over. Seemed a LOT lower than the EK 777 that flew over just before it. Might just be the fact the A
37 alberchico: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiFIONKDRpg&feature=player_embedded#! it seems that many airlines do these extreme takeoffs
38 VV701: According to this site: http://www.lhr-lgw.co.uk/lhr-movemen.../feb12/feblhrmore12/mlhr050212.mht the UL 343 operating into and out of LHR on 5 Febru
39 nicoeddf: Or maybe, that it isn't at all underpowered but a quad relatively to a twin. And to speak of a 6hours flight to DXB vs. a 10+ hours flight to CMB...
40 scbriml: It's amazing it was ever certified. Will this "underpowered" myth never die?
41 airsmiles: Looking at the FR24 replay 4R-ADG passed a point between Hounslow and Richmond at 500ft after take-off, whereas the preceding San Francisco bound Virg
42 SandroZRH: No, it's because the 777 is a twin and the A340 a quad, Zeke explained it very well in his post above.
43 PlymSpotter: I once experienced a very low climb out on an A343 after one of the engines lost power just prior to rotation. It did seem that we skipped the fence a
44 SSTeve: That's because the a343 is underpowered... as a tri-jet.
45 PlymSpotter: Anything operating at 75% availability is under-powered. However in that situation I'd rather have 75% power than 50% power still available on a twin
46 N405MX: I wonder if in those cases the TCAS starts warning.... "lorry ahead; CLIMB NOW !"......
47 DLdiamondboy: I have heard it said that an A340/200/300 cannot climb out of its own wake turbulence! LOL!
48 boysteve: No plan can! The wake terbulance is always behind it so it never needs to!
49 Delta777Jet: May be just a wrong derated take off performance calculations as it was the case with the A 340 almost crashed in Melbourne some time ago. May be in t
50 pumaknight: Re-read my statement and yep, it did sound like I meatn that that the houses were under the flightpath...what I meant is that you held your breath un
51 Eightball: You ain't seen nothing until you've seen this one. EDIT: I just noticed that alberchico posted the same video: [Edited 2012-02-18 15:55:32]
52 fanofjets: I recall watching a DC-9 take off from EWR while driving though a torrential rainstom on the adjacent NJ Turnpike. I suspect some kind of wind shear w
53 AAIL86: I live on the south end of DFW airport(within 1/2 km/1/4 mile of 36L/R) and during the very hot summers I often see some low climb-outs. As I live on
54 AngMoh: The lowest I have seen is a Martinair cargo plane in the early 90's taking of in ADL in the direction of the hills. They just made it over the hills,
55 CX Flyboy: Lots of people here using the word "underpowered" with people arguing both sides. No-one has actually said what their definition of that word is. Does
56 26point2: Clearly written by a young guy living in a Black and White world...not meant for an aviation career unless a job with the very Black-and White FAA or
57 airportugal310: Yup. I mean let's face it, they haven't invented a "sarcasm" font yet...but its blatantly obvious thats its all over this entire thread!!!
58 zeke: Depends on what you are talking about, the A340 will out climb the A330 and 777 one engine out, and will climb to a higher altitude than a 777 or 747
59 Flyingfox27: You know when there is a full Moon and its just rising for example, it looks bigger because its closer to the ground, then when its up high it looks s
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