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Why No A380 For South African Airways - Financials?  
User currently offlineboeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 55
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13934 times:

I was curious as why SA has not purchased the a380? They could benefit from this on routes to Europe and expansion. Also what is their expansion plans? They seem to utilize the a346 well and could pick up some from other carriers wanting to phase the a/c out such as TH & QR. Couldn't they pick up some used a346's and a343's and order (4) a380's? I just wonder why they are waiting so long as I think they are a perfect carrier to fly this a/c.

ORD
IAH
CDG
DXB
SYD
MEL

Didn't they use to fly to some of these destinations?

Thoughts?


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLGWflyer From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2011, 2348 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 13931 times:

I don't really think they need to waste money on an A380 when the 19 A340's and 6 quite new A330's (which they did get not long ago) they have which work well for them already. The A380 I think would be too much of a plane, 330/340's work better.


3 words... I Love Aviation!!!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8091 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 13788 times:
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SAA does NOT need to join the A380 "Club". Its too big for them and they don't even offer First Class any more. SAA needs planes that can fly nonstop to far away places with 200-300 passengers. London is only SAA city an A380 would even make sense for. Having one type for one city, even if you fly there 3 times daily, is not wise fleet polcy.

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 13445 times:

Quoting boeingfever777 (Thread starter):
Didn't they use to fly to some of these destinations?

SA used to serve MEL and SYD but now have an arrangement with QF flying from SYD to JNB, while SA operates flights to/ from PER .

DXB is operated under a code-share agreement with EK metal serving CPT, JNB and DUR .


User currently offlineAmerican 767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3651 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13313 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
London is only SAA city an A380 would even make sense for.

New York also.

But yes I agree that the A380 would be too large for them, based on what they need.



Ben Soriano
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1217 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 13306 times:

Had SA seen better liquidity they would definately be an airline that would buy a handful of A380.
But the airline isnt a profitcentre or maybe it is but has to many hand stealing candy but thats another issue.,

Australia, London and a route to Asia seems like made for the A380 from JBurg.
FRA Im not to sure about and the US nah, not important enough from Saffa.
For us that like airports and the industry an A380 in SA s colourscheme would be like a wet dream...



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6902 posts, RR: 13
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13094 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
SA used to serve MEL and SYD but now have an arrangement with QF flying from SYD to JNB, while SA operates flights to/ from PER .

which is shortly up for negotiation. Given QFs problems anything is possible.

As far as A380 carriers, I still believe there will be more and more coming in the coming years. There are many carriers like SA that can justify A380s seasonally or on certain routes but maybe are not just there yet.


User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Switzerland, joined Dec 2009, 543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13017 times:

If I'm not mistaken I've seen they fly with the A346 to MUC or even FRA!!!!


Next Flt: ZRH-SAW-ALA Rtn on (5-13.April.14)
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12805 times:

having a fleet of ten or so A380s would make sense. Sometimes it seems their entire A340 fleet is sitting at LHR awaiting departure.

If they could fill 3 or 4 daily 744s out of LHR then I'm sure they could use the A380. It's cheaper to operate and better for long haul.


User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24815 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12779 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
If they could fill 3 or 4 daily 744s out of LHR then I'm sure they could use the A380. It's cheaper to operate and better for long haul.

They may have filled them, but theyw ere losing crap loasds of money doing it. Hence why LHR see's A332/A340s now.



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19097 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12772 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 9):


They may have filled them, but theyw ere losing crap loasds of money doing it. Hence why LHR see's A332/A340s now.

Yep.

SA's CEO has explicitly said they have no intention for such capacity aircraft.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12316 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 2):
SAA does NOT need to join the A380 "Club". Its too big for them and they don't even offer First Class any more. SAA needs planes that can fly nonstop to far away places with 200-300 passengers. London is only SAA city an A380 would even make sense for. Having one type for one city, even if you fly there 3 times daily, is not wise fleet polcy.

Good point. I agree with that. Since the A380 was launched, SA has been mentioned on and off as a potential candidate, but yes, it would be too much plane for them, and only potentially good for a couple of routes.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 6):
which is shortly up for negotiation. Given QFs problems anything is possible.

Yes, I read about that. It is interesting. On the one hand, the QF flights from SYD and the SA flights to PER show the market exists. If QF's international operations are the ones that are suffering and this particular partnership is up for review, then I wonder if QF would be tempted to just terminate it considering that it cannot turn a profit, in which case SA would have to decide whether to continue serving Australia without's QF cooperation, or if QF would actually consider strengthening the relationship with SA and potentially ceding a more active role to SA in the S. Africa - Australia flights. Anyway, that is the subject of a different thread.

Back on topic, what are SA's options for the future in terms of large aircraft and long haul destinations? The 747 fleet is on the way out, right? If I am not mistaken, these planes were parked and some of them were briefly returned to active service not too long ago. Anyway, it is safe to say that SA will eventually replace both the 744s and all the A340s with a single family of aircraft, with the ability to serve LHR, FRA, MUC, JFK, IAD and PER (and potentially SYD and other destinations in the U.S.). Has SA placed orders or signed MOUs for A350s? The challenge is to be able to serve JFK and PER nonstop efficiently with twin-engine planes.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineboeingfever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11815 times:

Quoting gkirk (Reply 9):
Hence why LHR see's A332/A340s now.

What did they use to see instead?



What are the chances SA gets some use a340-600s in the near future for expansion? Also are they even looking for expanding their network?



Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12041 posts, RR: 47
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11686 times:
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Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
If they could fill 3 or 4 daily 744s out of LHR then I'm sure they could use the A380.

When was the last time you saw multiple SAA 747s at LHR? Heck, it's not even as though their 3 flights are all A346s - it's a mix of all A342s, A343s, A346s and now A332s.

As much as I'd love to see an SAA A380, I can't see it happening.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11572 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11485 times:

With reasonable management I think there is a good chance of seeing a small fleet of SAA A380s in the long run. But by long run I mean 2020-2030, when the A346s need a replacement.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3432 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 11356 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
The 747 fleet is on the way out, right? If I am not mistaken, these planes were parked and some of them were briefly returned to active service not too long ago.

All of the 747-400's left the South African Airways fleet.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 13):
I can't see it happening.

Agreed. The airline's finances is so precarious they just announced they will need another government bailout. It is a disgrace. IMO SAA should be privatized.



South African Airways (SAA) has warned it would post a loss this financial year and said it was in talks with the government for a recapitalisation of about R4bn-R6bn to fund operational costs, its growth strategy and fleet renewal.


SAA needs extra R6bn from state as costs bite


EDITORIAL: Breathtaking gall of SAA’s request


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 1161 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9675 times:

I think SA really needs the 787. I know hot and high is a factor but some later build 787s with slight improvements and lower weights would really find a good place and usefulness at South African.


Я говорю по-русский. :)
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 7874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 8547 times:

SAA suffers tremendously from the fact that a lot of their long haul routes are North-South, resulting in very poor aircraft utilization, not to mention that just about any significant market requires more than 1 aircraft to operate, and the physical and geographic location of JNB pretty much forces them to operate quads in most of their long haul routes. So what happens when the A340's are no longer viable?

User currently offlinenotaxonrotax From Netherlands, joined Mar 2011, 388 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8377 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 15):
All of the 747-400's left the South African Airways fleet.

Where / Who did they go to?



Als vader voorlicht, kan je merken dat hij achter ligt.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 8358 times:

I think South African Airways should be in talks to buy the A350-1000, provided the A3510 doesn't lose significant range when operating from JNB during the Southern Hemisphere summer. If Airbus can demonstrate the A3510 can fly from JNB to JFK on a near-full load at JNB's "hot and high" conditions, SA would sign off for possibly 14-15 A3510's.

User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 8215 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 19):
I think South African Airways should be in talks to buy the A350-1000

Does anyone have any idea when SA is expected to request proposals for long haul planes from Airbus and Boeing? Seems to me the A350 family might be a good solution for SA, but a combo of 787s and 777NGs (800LRs or whatever they will be called) might also be a good idea.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3432 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8042 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 18):
Where / Who did they go to?

According to http://www.airfleets.net/home/

ZS-SAV on 15/01/2007 to CX as B-HUR
ZS-SAW on 16/03/2006 to CX as B-HUS
ZS-SAX on 20/12/2007 to Transaero as VP-BVR
ZS-SAY on 12/12/2008 to Transaero as VP-BKJ
ZS-SAK on 07/10/2008 to Transaero as VP-BKL
ZS-SBK on 10/06/2010 to Transaero as VQ-BHW
ZS-SBS on 20/12/2010 to Transaero as VQ-BHX
ZS-SAZ on 01/11/2011 due to Transaero as VQ-


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 22 hours ago) and read 7556 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):

SA is making no money on the Codeshare JNB-SYD and is only just breaking even on the JNB-PER run. The International Air Services Commission has told QF and SA that they are more then likely not going to approve the codeshare past this year, but if QF and SA both fly daily on the SYD-JNB-SYD flights and PER-JNB-PER flight that they will approve the codeshare arrangement, but both airlines are saying no deal! So there is no way that these routes could support a A380. Loads on the PER-JNB-PER are usually very mixed on the A343 on SA.



Next Trip: PER-DPS-LOP-CGK-KUL-PVG-LHR, LCY-MAD-VLC, BCN-LYS-TLS-IST-JED-KUL-SGN-CAN-MEL
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7524 posts, RR: 43
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 12 hours ago) and read 7209 times:

Quoting JQflightie (Reply 22):
SA is making no money on the Codeshare... So there is no way that these routes could support a A380. Loads on the PER-JNB-PER are usually very mixed on the A343 on SA.

Thanks a lot for the info JQflightie, it is very interesting. I wonder if they should focus on serving JNB-PER only, daily and use PER as a connecting point where passengers can transfer on QF flights to the rest of the country, or if they should altogether terminate the flights.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlinemetalinyoni From Zimbabwe, joined Oct 2005, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 11 hours ago) and read 7104 times:

I think one of the problems facing SAA is that there are not enough transfer passengers through JNB or CPT to justify an A380 on any of their routes. All the airlines that fly A380's into JNB have good feeder flights from the Americas and / or Asia as well as Europe. Some sub - saharan traffic flows through JNB but not a huge amount and with Emirates now flying to Lusaka and HRE this is going to reduce the number of transfer passengers through JNB even further.


Less is more. Unless you're standing next to the one with more. Then less just looks pathetic.
25 YULWinterSkies : Well, it's a safe assumption that by then, there will be twins that are just as capable, the A350 to just name one. And the A332 has already joined t
26 Lufthansa : From what I've heard it's very tidal at times of the year, and after vigin pulled out I'm pretty sure they won't be Returning anytime soon. SAA is go
27 anstar : They can't even fill a 747 how are they going to fill an A380? They are also being attacked by the gulf carriers. I mean they only send and A330 upto
28 RWA380 : IAH-Yes, ORD-Rumored/planned/not sure if it ever ran, CDG-Yes, They have flown to SYD before with PER stop, never knew about MEL being an SA city, DX
29 motorhussy : Think we'd find that if QF pulled out of SYD-JNB, SA's staralliance partner NZ would be pretty fast out of the blocks with a 77W or even 744 flying A
30 Lufthansa : All three could sell it, but it would of course impact on SA's PER flights. actually I never understood why NZ didn't try MEL-JNB or BNE-JNB. Does an
31 Post contains images RyanairGuru : As JQFlightie has said, the Australian government (ACCC I think) has indicated that if flight levels remain as they are now, then they will not re-ap
32 Burkhard : I believe in growth of aviation, especially in South Africa. Johannesburgh has proven to support A380s - if LH or AF would not make more money there o
33 jfk777 : The only scenario where SAA might get an A380 is if it becomes part of a larger airline group. This has not happened in Africa yet as it is in Latin A
34 SA7700 : Don’t hold your breath. The government is constantly bitching about bailing out South African Airways, but at the same time they won’t let go of
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