avi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 495 posts, RR: 0 Posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10867 times:
About 4 years ago, I remember flying MIA-MCO on a Delta Connection (or express, I truly can't rember). When the plane parked at the gate, I rememer seeing numerous ERJ's, maybe like 17 of them. Now I did a little research and found out that Delta had a regional hub there. Now, why did the pull put? Did DL also have significant mainline presence other than connecting to its hubs?
jetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7336 posts, RR: 52 Reply 3, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 10757 times:
We have significantly reduced the RJ flying in the last 2-3 years, due in large part to merger and cost cuts. I think you mean Delta Connection, Delta Express was a high-frequency operation using 737s. Either those small jets were moved to another airline or were moved to SLC, since OO operates a bulk our west coast destinations out of there.
apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3640 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10695 times:
DL was the biggest airline in MCO for a long time, with many widebody flights to big cities. I remember when they ran BOS-MCO with L-1011's. A number of things have happened in recent years that have led to DL reducing their presence significantly.
1. The LCC boom. Currently the two biggest carriers at MCO I believe are B6 and WN. Back in the late 90's, WN was just starting the MCO operation and B6 had barely launched. Because those carriers attract the type of travelers that go to MCO, they have been able to boost their presence. FL was also a part of that for a long time, and even had their dispatch office in Orlando (What are the plans for this building down the road anyways? I know B6 wants to keep HQ in NYC, but a dispatch office in Orlando would make it much easier to attract talent than in NYC)
2. Because of LCC pressure, when DL tried the airline within an airline to compete (First with DL Express, then with Song) it didn't work and they had to backpedal. MCO was a key focus city for this operation.
3. The Comair strike. MCO was the second biggest hub for Comair when this happened (CVG was the biggest). This eventually led the regional path we know now (which is too many RJ operators at each hub, rather than to have it be simple at 1 or 2 per hub). Eventually Freedom became the biggest carrier in MCO, but after their demise in the Mesa bankruptcy, the flying was not replaced.
4. Airside 2. This gave Southwest mega gate space to expand in MCO, and also other carriers. The UA/CO merger also freed up gate space that B6 took advantage of.
5. 9-11...Along with most of the legacy carriers, this led to the model of only putting capacity on routes with high yielding traffic. While MCO is a huge O and D market, it is a leisure market primarily which means the yields are not high.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 10569 times:
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 1): MCO is a large market for us, always has been. I'm not sure what time of day you came in, but for many years, MCO was served with large aircraft. You're line of questioning is kind of vague
Currently, I see DL serving MCO from all of their hubs - ATL, MEM, LGA, JFK, DTW, CVG, MSP, SLC, and LAX, which is expected.
Then the only other destinations from there are BOS, RDU, and MIA.
So a total of twelve destinations from what it appears. And I suppose this can be considered a lot.
So they may have a lot of flights from all of these, but other than their nine hubs, and the three others here, there's not much after that from what I can see. Did they once have more destinations? Were a lot of flights cut down from other destinations that weren't hubs, and replaced with increases from hubs?
It shows what the OP is talking about.
At happened? Well it just did not work out. Bad economy, plus sucessful LCC's. MCO is not the best market for a legacy carrier to set up a hub. Besides for that even when they did have their mini regional hub in MCO, MCO provided few connections opportunities since all of the destinations served from MCO had flights to ATL anyway.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
DLX737200 From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1850 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 10156 times:
Quoting avi8 (Thread starter): When the plane parked at the gate, I rememer seeing numerous ERJ's, maybe like 17 of them.
Correct, until the summer of 2007, DL Connection had a large ERJ operation operated primarily by Freedom and Chautauqua. Before that, it was primarily Comair and ASA CRJ-200s. DL Connection had a large regional presence in MCO from 1990-ish until 2007. The peak though was from 2003-2006, after DL Express and then Song were phased out.
I worked on the DL Connection ramp (gate 60 A-Q) from early 2006 until I transferred out in the summer of 2007, just before the pulldown. At one point, I remember working flights to:
MIA, FLL, EYW, TLH, ALB, BHM, BUF, CVG, CAE, CMH, GSO, GSP, BDL, HSV, SDF, BNA, NAS, MSY, PFN, PNS, VPS, RDU, RIC, ROC, TYS, TRI, BTR, OKC, TUL, MCI, BMI, MLI, LEX, and CAK. I probably even missed one or two.
Mainline was also flying to ATL, CVG, SLC, JFK, LGA, LAX, LAS, and SJU. They started MEX just after I left.
Several of the DL Connection cities in 2006 were served by DL Express in the late 90's. When Express was cut, they were transferred to Connection. The former Song routes were either transferred to mainline or cut after Song was shut down in 2004 (or 2005?)
As an aside... Because so many mainline flights (before and after DL Express) were downgraded to Connection flights, there was a lot of tension between the mainline and connection ramp agents in MCO. Mainly from the mainline agents. They felt we were taking their mainline jobs since so many mainline flights went to connection, even though it was their company that decided to downsize these routes. Most of us did all we could to befriend the mainline workers but for some of them, we'd never be good enough to be considered equals on the ramp. If we had a bag to transfer to them (for a pax going from Connection to a mainline flight), it'd be our fault if we didn't get it to them ontime. If they had a bag to give to us, it'd be our fault if we didn't come pick it up from them ontime. They could never get bags from us or brings bags to us. In the end, our operation was cut and ~80 hard working Comair employees were let go. I'm sure the mainline workers were glad to have the ramp all to themselves afterwards.
Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 3): We have significantly reduced the RJ flying in the last 2-3 years, due in large part to merger and cost cuts.
The MCO RJ flying was cut before the NW merger was announced.
They do the ramp for Virgin. I think Swissport does the above wing work?
Overall, DL cut the RJ flying because, as many on here have said, MCO is a low yield market. Cheap airfares on high CASM RJs is just not a lucrative market to be in. DL was doing all they could to compete with Southwest, JetBlue and AirTran, all of which had lower CASM aircraft at the same fares that DL was charging for their high CASM RJs. DL cut back a lot of MCO flying but after the merger with NW, they have more mainline in MCO than they have in a long time and it's a nice sight to see ~20 overnighting mainline aircraft these days.
[Edited 2012-02-19 16:52:39]
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HVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 405 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 9610 times:
For part of the 90s, MCO was a full-fledged DL hub. It was somewhat of a reliever hub for ATL, and also had a heavy O/D focus. DL had mainline widebody flights almost hourly to ATL, and plenty of mainline linking MCO to all of the other hubs, plus LGA/LAX/LAS/SJU. DL Express used the 732 to serve large and mid-sized cities up and down the east coast and extending into the midwest. Additionally, OH had an extensive prop operation linking other Florida and southeastern cities (such as SRQ, MIA, TLH, MSY, etc.) to MCO and facilitating onward connections. During the days of the FRA hub, DL had a flight from MCO to there as well. DL even announced service to a few Latin-American cities as part of the plan to build MCO and turn it into an international gateway. I don't remember which cities they were, but I believe there were three of them. Tickets were sold but service never actually launched. This was all during the days of DL being the official airline of Disney World as well. It was quite an operation at its peak.
ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 583 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9366 times:
Did DL ever do TATL from MCO, also not meaning to hijack the thread but I have heard DL and the former NW had a pretty big prescience at ord pre 90s even NW doing NRT runs and DL offering a lot more domestic routes, is that true. Some of my earliest flying memories is taking DL to MCO out of ORD.
xjramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2345 posts, RR: 52 Reply 16, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8324 times:
I remember the days when DL had gates 60-99. In the picture posted above the gates started in the 60s with the RJ gates and worked counter clockwise 90-99 (where FL lives now), 80-89 (FIS/CBP still live there, but not for any DL flights) and DL still uses those gates, but they are now primarily in 70-79. There used to be a BE lounge on the same level as the current SC, but the entrance was the mirror image (kind of) of where the SC entrance is now.
I remember a lot of people bitching and moaning when DL pulled a lot of the non-stop routes from MCO and downguaged all aircraft to ATL.
IMO regional flying should be done away with unless its a two cabin aircraft and DL cannot support flights to the aforementioned cities they used to serve with the OH and F8 flying and still capture better markets. Also, I viewed the MCO hub as DL trying to mirror the MIA AA hub and failing miserably.
b727fa From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 547 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8256 times:
At MCO Comair developed the "push-back" for regional a/c...until then, all flights were "turn outs" on the regional side. After OH was pulled out of MCO (yes, the second largest, and the "only other" hub for OH at the time) CHQ went in to the MCO operation. Mesa/Freedom was a long after second thought at MCO.
My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
pit From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 158 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 8194 times:
I remember flying PIT-ATL on a MD-88 and takeing a 777 from ATL-MCO and I believe this was summer of 04. I also remember going to the wrong gate 2 times because two 767 departed about 15-30min prior from each other before my flight left.
I was walking through there terminal in MCO just this past summer, It seems as if they still have a decent opperatoin in MCO. I was flying non-rev to ny and they had a LGA and JFK flight leaving at the same time. I was trying to go to JFK but it was oversold so I ended up on the LGA flight but everything is mainline there now from what I could tell. Does anyone know if Delta still operates teh ramp tower in that concourse too?
From waht I can tell is that DL servers these markets non-stop all mainline from MCO today.
LAX ATL LGA BOS DTW MEM MSP CVG SLC JFK
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 5 Reply 19, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7742 times:
"I was walking through there terminal in MCO just this past summer, It seems as if they still have a decent opperatoin in MCO. I was flying non-rev to ny and they had a LGA and JFK flight leaving at the same time. I was trying to go to JFK but it was oversold so I ended up on the LGA flight but everything is mainline there now from what I could tell. Does anyone know if Delta still operates teh ramp tower in that concourse too?"
They always had JFK and LGA flights at the same time...so cool. I remember being voluntarily bumped off a LGA flight and being put in F to JFK 30 mins later with a limo to LGA. I was 8 or 9 at most and the meal in F was Corned Beef. Think it was a 72S. It was right after the takeover of the Pan Am operation at JFK because when we landed there were plenty of A310s with the blue globe whited out and the word "DELTA" hastily written on the tail. Still didn't have the DL paintjob.
Last I heard FL was suppose to move into the ramp tower for their operations in gates 90-99 but then WN acquired them and now I'm pretty sure they're all over in airside 2 now, with the exception of occasional international flights. I might be wrong, I haven't been in that terminal in over a year now.
The public: They always know better, even though they often know nothing
5MillionMiler From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 88 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (1 year 3 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6650 times:
In the late 90s I used to fly in/out of MCO at least once per week on DL from DFW or ATL. Was almost always a 763 (sometimes a 757) from DFW and 763, 764, 777 or L1011 from ATL. Even flew the 777 from JFK to MCO. DL had a great operation at MCO. I believe they used the MD-11 for a while too.
I flew on the first revenue flight on a DL 777 into ATL. It was on a Saturday morning from MCO in May of 99. Arrived at international terminal and lots of staff were taking photos. Loved the 777 on ATL-MCO! Was a rocket up to 41,000 feet every time.
laca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3749 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4992 times:
DL used to operate LAX-MCO-LAX with L10s, 763s, 762s 2-3X daily. For several years now, these flights have been flown with the 738/73Hs and occasional PMNW A320s. Remarkable downgauge in a/c for DL in this market but they have right sized it with UA, AA, and VX flying it nonstop as well.
TLHFLA From United States of America, joined May 2003, 584 posts, RR: 1 Reply 25, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5085 times:
Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 15): I think I have a mug with MCO-Paris nonstop somewhere and they also did MCO-LGW I believe?
They started MCO-ORY in the early 90's but it only lasted a few months. They also operated MCO-DTW-LGW, I think with an L1011-500. The DTW-LGW flight I believe was a carry over from Pan Am, which Delta operated until around 1995 or so...
slclaxkixkhh From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 74 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5090 times:
Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 11): DL even announced service to a few Latin-American cities as part of the plan to build MCO and turn it into an international gateway. I don't remember which cities they were, but I believe there were three of them.
They announced GUA, SJO, and CCS, but I don't know if they ever started service.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4739 times:
Quoting mcogator (Reply 23): DL serves LAS from MCO. Also, CUN is seasonal and IND and CMH look like they have a short duration for spring break.
Thanks for that, but on the DL Skyteam Travel Desk, I do not see an MCO-LAS n/s flight listed, and I believe that at present, only WN serves MCO-LAS n/s. As for the others, well...... if so, okay. I can stand corrected.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16260 posts, RR: 52 Reply 34, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4648 times:
Sometime either in '93 or '94 DL had listed several new Latin America routes from MCO in their timetable that they never launched, it was listed in their schedules an on their route map. I have that timetable somewhere in my parents attic. I remember I picked it up at the Disney Contemporary resort, when DL was their "Official airline" you could find their timetables displayed all over the Disney resorts.
Some of the flights that were displayed but never launched were:
mcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 36, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4279 times:
Quoting point2point (Reply 33): Thanks for that, but on the DL Skyteam Travel Desk, I do not see an MCO-LAS n/s flight listed, and I believe that at present, only WN serves MCO-LAS n/s. As for the others, well...... if so, okay. I can stand corrected.
I guess its not daily anymore, and only runs Thursday-Sunday.
Thu,Fri,Sun 10:40p Las Vegas (LAS) 1 6:06a+1 Orlando (MCO)
DL 2299 Non-stop Airbus A320 (320) 4:26
Thu,Fri,Sun 7:55p Orlando (MCO) 9:32p Las Vegas (LAS) 1
DL 2299 Non-stop Boeing 737-800 (73H) 4:37
Okay, it seems to be seasonal then, along with the others?
And even as such, I guess that it's still a big draw down here of MCO by DL, which at one time had many, more flights and destinations here, to a shadow of what it was and now only with service to the hubs, then BOS, RDU, and MIA, and then to LAS, IND, CMH, and CUN for a short (spring break?) duration. I think that we can agree on that?
YULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2109 posts, RR: 6 Reply 38, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3981 times:
Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 15):
I think I have a mug with MCO-Paris nonstop somewhere and they also did MCO-LGW I believe?
There currently is a CDG-MCO, operated by AF on a high-density 77W. But it's not going to last beyond the winter season afaik. Wasn't there an MCO-AMS run by KL recently as well?
Out of curiosity, can one connect in MCO from another DL flight to hop on the CDG flight? Nothing I see desirable in doing so, as one can just go through ATL or any other hub instead, but if one is really desperate to fly a sardine-can 77W....
mcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (1 year 3 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3304 times:
Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 38): Out of curiosity, can one connect in MCO from another DL flight to hop on the CDG flight? Nothing I see desirable in doing so, as one can just go through ATL or any other hub instead, but if one is really desperate to fly a sardine-can 77W....
I don't think there are really any possibilities as the vast majority of DL flights into Orlando are from hubs with their own direct flights to CDG. MIA has their own AF flight, so the only two possibilities would be LAS and RDU.
I've flown the 77W on the CDG-MCO leg last year in Y and it wasn't too bad even though it looked to be 100% full. Of course I was in 55L which is the first row of 8 abreast. I could put my legs to the right and sleep on my right side just fine.