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KLM To Replace 747-300s, MD-11s And B-767  
User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 4290 times:

Hi this might be interesting to some of us. Lately there have been many discussions about KLM's widebody fleet but now we have a fact.

Today on the morning news in the Netherlands, it was said that KLM has asked Boeing and Airbus for tenders on their B-777 and A-330 aircraft. KLM wants a tender for 34 planes and all are going to be replacements. The first 12 are going to replace the B-747-300 and the other 22 are going to replace their MD-11 and B-767 fleet.

I hope they are going to take the 777.

BTW, I do not see the logic in replacing a 767 by a 777



47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 11095 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 3944 times:

An I don´t see the logic in replacing 747-300s with 777s unless your business is declining permanently.

User currently offlineLuxair From Netherlands, joined Jan 2001, 858 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 3920 times:

Yeaphhh Tripple7, I saw it also in the News this morning. Very interesting but I hope or wish
that they will make a mix between Boeing and Airbus A/C  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Too bad for the MD11 that they will
go because I like them very much.

Mario Luigi Alvaro
User currently offlineYOERI1970 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2001, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

On which channel did you get this news ?

Regarding the replacing itself......
The 777-300 to replace the 747-300 and some 777-200's to replace the MD-11's.

User currently offlineDLL10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Well, KLMs busines will decline, as they are not going to be together with NW for long and hardly anybody would voluntarily book a flight on a high-cost low-service airline like KLM. Anyway, I don`t see the logic in replacing 767 by 777 either. Still better than the 330 (that`s what LTU is doing- replacing 763 by 332), but in both cases they should rather stick with their 767s.

User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2738 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (13 years 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

I wonder if Airbus is even going to respond on this request for tenders!

Airbus recently announced they do not want to be used anymore by airlines who are just using the Airbus tender as a way of forcing Boeing to offer a them better deal.

It looks to me like this is certainly the case here.
We al know KLM is the odd man out in Europe when it comes to fleet management, and they will most likely never order the A330. Don't forget KLM is the only major carrier in Europe (apart from SAS) who preferred the B737NG! (SAS has the A321 as well by the way).

It's going to be very interesting to see what happens over the next weeks. Who knows, maybe Airbus will give them such good tenders that KLM simply can not refuse them after all.

User currently offlineOO-VEG From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 1165 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (13 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 3858 times:

Replacing the 747 for the smaller 777 is not that strange. It is not declining business. Remember most 747-400 are combi's. So it is not that strange KLM preffers a smaller aircraft.

Now that Northwest has chosen the A330 KLM might do the same thing. However, as KLM is Europe's one and only REAL Boeing customer I hope and think they will choose the B777.

Maybe KLM also decides about buying the B757-300 as a replacement for the 767. After all are those aircraft less expensive to fly with that the 767.

DLL10: Why do you think NW and KLM will split-up? Is this just something you hope for or do you have some good reasons to say that?

User currently offlineLBA From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

Will BA be part of the decision, considering the news this weekend that BA want a stake in KLM of up to 25%?

User currently offline*Niels* From Netherlands, joined Aug 2001, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (13 years 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 3823 times:

I think that KLM wouldn't even consider buying the 757-300 because that gives to many problems with the baggage handling.
Second of all I hope that KLM will choose the airbus, and not just to breakthrough the boeing-monopoly (if it still exists).
In my opinion the A340-500/600 are the best aircrafts to replace the 747-306 and the 767-306ER. And perhaps you could consider to buy 11 A330's to replace the MD-11's. But however KLM takes the final decission and lets hope it will be a wise one.


User currently offlineTWA@FRA From China, joined Nov 2000, 164 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (13 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Bad news to hear that they will replace B743 by B777, so lot of Maindeck cargo space will be lost, because some/or all are combi`s.
Does anybody know if KL want to covert al his B743 into freighters


User currently offlineDLL10 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (13 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 3799 times:

Well, the break up was in the news a while ago and I am not sure if something changed or not. Fact is that KLM has lost a lot of shuttles between AMS and the rest of Europe due to bad cooperation strategies and thus AMS as hub and KL as partner become less attractive for NW. More and more flight to the middle and far east are already operated by NW aircraft although they almost totally relied on KL for those routes in the past. So I guess that if they find any way to get fifth freedom rights out of the Netherlands, they will split up with KL, as those rights seem to be the only good thing that NW gets out of the partnership. That anyways is what the article like 3 month ago said. Don`t know if there`s anything newer.

User currently offlineTripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

I think the Boeing777 is a perfect replacement for the 747-300. A lot of those 747-300s are combis. KLM seems to prefer aircraft that can carry a lot of cargo. The fact is that 777 combis can carry quite a lot of cargo, and if I am not mistaken it can even carry more cargo than a 747-400 combi. Not sure about this, but I thaught I read it somewhere around this forum a while ago.

Anyway is there anyone who can explain the logic behind replacing a 767-300ER with an 777 (if KLM chooses the 777). There is quite a big difference in capacity between these two planes.


User currently offlineYOERI1970 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2001, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (13 years 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

I am getting a bit irrirated about those airbus addepts, trying to explain why "their" aircraft should benefit KLM.
Has everyone forgotten about what a fiasco the A310's in the 80's and early 90's were ?

KLM wants standardization in their fleet, therefor they will most likely choose 777's.
The only question is, will they also order the 200 or 300 versions. Likely a mix.

User currently offline*Niels* From Netherlands, joined Aug 2001, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (13 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 3770 times:

Beste Juninho,

I'll try to make some things clear, first of all I'm surely not an Airbus adept as you suggest. And airbus is certainly not my aircraft, but my opinion is based on articles I read in the Piloot en Vliegtuig (a dutch magazine you probably know about).
I didn't forgot the problems with the 310 a couple of years ago, but I really think that the A340 is a better choice, perhaps not in the view of standardization but it just feels good.
Anyway as I said before it isn't our choice which plane will replace the 747, 767 and the MD-11, but I think that we are free to discus about it. I'm sorry for your irritations, and in the future I'll mind my words.


User currently offlineBoeing in pdx From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (13 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 3761 times:

it makes perfect logic. they will likley order more 777's than there are 743. so more flights means more money

and klm will not care about NWA. what do they have to do with it. and also klm is on Boeing's supply network

User currently offlineLON-CHI From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (13 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

link to article:


User currently offlineYOERI1970 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2001, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (13 years 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 3759 times:

It wasn't personal *niels*, so no worries. But there are a lot of real airbus addepts that would like to see the whole world flying airbusses.
I can't deny that airbusses have their advantages, but for KLM, they will probably not do, they don't feel good to me.. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But if KLM might choose airbus after all, I am sure it's a decision made with a lot of common sense by people who get richly paid.... Smile/happy/getting dizzy
We'll just have to wait and see.

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (13 years 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 3725 times:

Replacing 743s with 773 and 763 with 332 sounds pretty natural to me - no that large differences in capacity.

User currently offline456 From Netherlands, joined Feb 2001, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (13 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3697 times:

Why dont i see a 1 to 1 replacement, so a 747-3combi for a new 747-4combi?

What will happen with the old planes?
It is a really BIG replacement: Almost EVERY plane will be replaced in the near future, except the 747-4 and the 737NG

User currently offlineSm92 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (13 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3692 times:


User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (13 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3686 times:

Hopefully a mix of both types from both manufacturers?

User currently offlineTeej13 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (13 years 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 3667 times:

A couple of thoughts:

- If they're looking to replace the 763s, and have made it clear that they're simply not going to go for more 767s, that says something right there.

- They still have a large fleet of 744s, although some are combis, they're not going anywhere soon.

- Fleet commonailty isn't as vital as some people may argue when discussing aircraft acquisition of this magnitude. Look at United - they've got a pretty diverse fleet of both Airbus and Boeing planes, and they're pretty adept at doing maint. on other Star Alliance jets. Besides, with all of the A330s coming to NW, they'll need to know how to maintain those planes too.

- My guess is that they're goign to go with an Airbus-Boeing mix. I don't think loyalties playa role here - while they've been pretty strong about Boeing of late, they are also a cornerstone of the EU.

My call is some A332s and some B773s

User currently offlineEFG From Netherlands, joined Feb 2001, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (13 years 11 months ago) and read 3662 times:

They can replace the 763' s for 764's.
And replace the 743's for 773's and MD-11's for 772's.
And order some 737NG later to replace old 737' s.
I guess they will go for an all Boeing fleet.

BTW, on which channel was the news?
Because I watched NOS this morning, but I saw nothing.

User currently offlineFlyTriStar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (13 years 11 months ago) and read 3649 times:

KLM was one of few airlines that had been saying that they would retain the MD-11, but I guess they have changed their mind. Anyway, a plan was called around 1996 to sell all of them to Northwest, which never acquired them.

The Boeing 777-200ER would be a good replacement for the Boeing 747-300/-200SUD combis, as the pax capacity is not so different. However, that would raise the need for a cargo aircraft...so, the 777-300 would probably be the ideal replacement. However, the 777-200 will be an ideal replacement for the MD-11s. The Boeing 767s KLM operate are still very new (less than 10 years), so I don't know why there is the need to replace them, but knowing that all of these are leased from ILFC, maybe KLM doesn't want to renew the lease contracts...like other airlines that are considering replacing the 767s, I think KLM would eventually select the Airbus A330-200 for this.


User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6749 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (13 years 11 months ago) and read 3649 times:


What article are you talking about. Nothing could be farther from the truth. NW is very happy with the alliance with KLM.
You said " more and more flights are operated by to the middle and far east are already operated by Northwest aircraft although they they have almost totally relied on KL for these routes in flights out of Amsterdam."

The only non-US flights that Northwest flies out of Amsterdam go to Bombay and Delhi. These were started at the request of KLM several years ago to get additional slots in India for the alliance. There are no other flights flown by Northwest out of Amsterdam, to anywhere in Europe, the "middle east" or the far east.

Are you sure it was an article, or was it a message on one of the message boards? Those are two different things

25 AKelley728 : From the Yahoo article: A KLM spokesman said the airline's freight division was reviewing its strategy. ``There is a separate KLM cargo study going on
26 King767 : You are correct, the article is talking about the 747-200s, sent back to Boeing for conversion into 747-200SUD, which to an observer, looks exactly li
27 Na : I just ask myself, why only A330 and 777? Why not the A340? Too much range? Why not more 744 Combis? Bad business? Sure KLM isn´t doing very good at
28 Lj : In addition KLM also asked GE, P&W and Rolls Royce to make an offer for KLM for the powerplants under the new aircraft. Furthermore, KLM also invited
29 Red Panda : KLM should go for A346 for 744 and 743, 332 for 767, and 343 for MD-11. maybe some 333 and 345 too. brgds // r panda
30 Notar520AC : I hope not!
31 OO-VEG : DLL10. You are quite confident about what you are saying. So give us some sources where you got this from. And I mean real sources not the journal I s
32 Post contains images Klaus : OO-VEG: I don't see Boeing offering discounts. If the airframe business is anything like any other business, a substantial order will in most cases be
33 Boeing in pdx : Boeing always gives discounts. but not as much as airbus so boeing has a better reputation.
34 OO-VEG : Klaus: What I actually meant were mega discounts like Airbus sometimes does, I have heard they sold some aircraft for just half the price. I have neve
35 Jwenting : Most likely new aircraft are 777s (one mod only) and more 737-900s. 777s to replace the 747-200 and 300 series (KLM makes no distinction themselves, a
36 Petertenthije : When KLM replaces their 767s and MD-11s, will the planes off Martinair be replaced as well then? Other option I once read on another forum, put KLM's
37 Dutchjet : This order has been rumoured and talked about for many years and delayed many times; but I think that KLM is serious now since it feels that it can ma
38 Dutchjet : One final comment to a posting above, the 739 on middle east routes may be a little short on range at full capacity; the 739 does not have the range t
39 Post contains images Juul : Boeing in pdx wrote: "Boeing always gives discounts. but not as much as airbus so boeing has a better reputation" Huh????? Can you please provide me w
40 Red Panda : your probably forgot about the latest 345 and 346. If you count them in, Airbus might win. brgds // r panda
41 Mr.BA : When is the decision going to be made? Sometime soon? I do hope to see B777s with KLM! alvin
42 QantasA3XX : I hope KLM considers the A330 and A340-500/600 to replace their current fleet . Boeing 777 will do too . Hmm i feel that Boeing 777 is the favourites
43 SAS a340 : I don't see the a 340-600 as a replacer for the 747-200/300 fleet, the 600 has a capacity of 380 seats while the capacity of the 747-200/300's lays a
44 Post contains links OO-VEG : For Juul and all the other who need some reliable sources: http://www.smh.com.au/news/0103/05/business/business9.html "Qantas has secured walk-away cl
45 Post contains images Juul : As for the first article: Huge discounts are always given to launch customers. The second: let me just quote: "Both manufacturers made nonsense of lis
46 Dutchjet : Concerning discounts, its common for both Airbus and Boeing to give big discounts to secure orders, and to cut their prices even more if special facto
47 CX747 : I personally see the 777-200ER winning this battle as it will be better suited to replace the747-300s and MD-11s capacity and cargo wise. It will also
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