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AC Mechanics, Baggage Handlers Reject Contract  
User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 314 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 10 months 2 hours ago) and read 7518 times:

Air Canada mechanics, baggage handlers reject labor

Another union at Air Canada has rejected a tentative contract. The article says they have a mandate to strike, but probably won't.

Recent history has shown that a Strike threat from the union invokes a swift response from the government ala Lisa Raitt.


Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
103 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 7248 times:

Not me...I voted in favor of the TA. I thought, as did many of my co-workers here in YYT that it was about as good as it was going to get.
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.
Well, it should be interesting to see what the company and union negotiate now...chances are it will end up being less than what was offered in this first agreement.
Let the bashing begin...AGAIN!!



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7193 times:

Hopefully Lisa Raitt will stay out of this, and let a strike happen.

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4638 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7151 times:

I've heard support for the contract was strong out west and it was primarily YYZ and YUL that sank it.


Word
User currently offlineBoeingorbust From Canada, joined Oct 2011, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

I hope all the AC employees the best with their contracts. It's been tough to see the trouble that AC has been going through lately with unions and finances. Hopefully they can sort these things out and get organized and start making some $$ again! I feel for u guys!

Lol yyz717, we need to direct that guy from the other post to this forum as a little evidence. Yep AC competes so well!


User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6897 times:

Quoting Boeingorbust (Reply 4):
Lol yyz717, we need to direct that guy from the other post to this forum as a little evidence. Yep AC competes so well!

Amen!

I'm a little perplexed by this seemingly repeating pattern of union heads reaching a tentative agreement, and having it voted down by the general membership.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

It would be really hard to base a fair assessment of the contract on a couple of stated facts. Maybe there were other concessions in the contract. Maybe there was an attrition/out sourcing clause? More money per person, less people?

Based on the fact that the contract got rejected, there probably are. What are these concessions? Only the people that voted on the contract know that.

I think it is unfair to assume the 'compentency of HQ' based on the limited knowledge of a news article and one line from a worker.

Edited to fix some grammar.

[Edited 2012-02-23 08:49:23]


Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlinerobsaw From Canada, joined Dec 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 6746 times:

Problem is the still prevailing we're a "public service/crown corporation" (but they really aren't) attitude amongst the many old-time workers at AC. They think they must have a good raise every year regardless of general economics or specific profitability of their employer.

User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):

How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

Pay increases that barely cover the rate of inflation? At a time when increases in company revenue are outpacing said inflation? There are a host of structural problems at AC, but modest pay increases do not count among them.


Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):

I think it is unfair to assume the 'compentency of HQ' based on the limited knowledge of a news article and one line from a worker.

It is very easy to sit behind an anonymous computer and take potshots at a situation about which one knows very little, all the while offering no suggestions.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1932 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6293 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
How can a money-losing business offer pay increases like this? Is anyone competent running HQ?

What's your address? I'm going to mail you my management textbooks. Anyone with a management bone in their body knows that happy employees are productive employees. I'm pretty sure even Kevin O'Leary knows that.

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
I'm a little perplexed by this seemingly repeating pattern of union heads reaching a tentative agreement, and having it voted down by the general membership.

This just adds to my suspicion of union heads. I have always maintained that union heads have ulterior agendas (as minor as they may be) and don't always convey the appropriate message to the people they are paid to represent in good faith.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
Pay increases that barely cover the rate of inflation? At a time when increases in company revenue are outpacing said inflation? There are a host of structural problems at AC, but modest pay increases do not count among them.

  



Flying refined.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6165 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 8):
What's your address? I'm going to mail you my management textbooks.

Suggest you keep your textbooks, and look up how revenue needs to be greater than expenses for sustainable businesses. It should be on page 1, chapter 1. You'll get to it when you open the cover. It's not hard.

Quoting threepoint (Reply 7):
It is very easy to sit behind an anonymous computer and take potshots at a situation about which one knows very little, all the while offering no suggestions.

Then why do it?

The fact remains that AC is not a going concern with its current business model and performance. Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5155 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5941 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

This certainly does appear generous ... why then was it voted down?

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.

The increase offered was certainly generous, the salaries are not. My nephew recently was hired as a Station Attendant at AC, at minimum wage, and part-time as most are ... his salary was about $1400 a month! He eventually quit and is working for Swissport now. Same job, higher pay. I am guessing AC is raising wages in an effort to stop employees from leaving.

Yes, employees salaries have to be covered. As do landing fees ($12,000 to land a Triple at YYZ), fuel costs, operating costs, catering costs, etc etc etc .... I just hope there is an attempt to reduce costs everywhere in the airline, not just the employees.

No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

With over $10B of revenue a year, AC is this huge money-moving machine. Paying Billions in government and quasi government fees and taxes, keeping employees and ancillary employees working. Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

Funny how they say that yet they seem to have no issue with AC attempting to move jobs to a an off shore company. I wonder how that'll affect the Canadian economy?

I hope that this will open the governments eyes to the real problem at AC. The company, not the employees!!!!
This is the fourth major union that has turned down the TA and taken a strike vote after months and months of negotiations and feet dragging by the company. The employees are obviously not happy!


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 5866 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 1):
I expected to see a 7-9% raise over 4 years with very little else, but we were offered an 11.7% increase over 4 years plus an extra weeks vacation that we lost 7 years ago.

This certainly does appear generous ... why then was it voted down?

More fundamentally, why did AC mgmt even offer such generous increases?

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 11):
I hope that this will open the governments eyes to the real problem at AC. The company, not the employees!!!!

It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
No, Air Canada will not fold. If anything the last couple years events have shown us is that if anyone even farts twice, the Government has back to work legislation pending, citing how essential AC is to Canada's economy. (Their words, not mine).

With over $10B of revenue a year, AC is this huge money-moving machine. Paying Billions in government and quasi government fees and taxes, keeping employees and ancillary employees working. Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.

As a for-profit private sector carrier, AC can and could fold unless it gets its act together.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 5825 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 11):
Funny how they say that yet they seem to have no issue with AC attempting to move jobs to a an off shore company. I wonder how that'll affect the Canadian economy?

The government's point that AC is essential to the Canadian economy has little to do with the few thousand AC employees but rather the fact that transportation in a country of our size is essential to the economy. While this is no doubt true to an extent, the fact is that a labour disruption would disrupt the travel plans, business or pleasure, of far more Canadians than AC employees - it's a simple electoral numbers game. Government's take political heat when these things happen, just look at Australia during the Qantas strikes.

Specifically to the question of moving jobs off-shore, if that means moving more Canadians at lower prices it will more than make up for the lost government revenue associated with sending jobs to another jurisdiction. The point is that AC job numbers have nearly no affect on the Canadian economy, but rather it is the transportation service provided that does.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5155 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid

Yes, but remember what I said on an earlier post. Using the 4th quarter and year end results of both airlines ...

The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other. And during that time, each AC employee produced more RPMs than each WS employee, and a 23% more revenue. Yet ... you keep incorrectly saying AC employees are unproductive and overpaid.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinecanadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5501 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
It's both. The ongoing losses show that AC management is not up to the job of running AC. The high unit costs of the airlines (25% higher than WS) show that AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

That is is unfair comparison. CASM is a reflection of the entire cost of operation of the airline, not just the employee wages.

Air Canada and Westjet are different airlines... Air Canada has regional feeder server and international long-haul operations. These two types of service invariably cost more to operate, but potentially produce more revenue.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other. And during that time, each AC employee produced more RPMs than each WS employee, and a 23% more revenue. Yet ... you keep incorrectly saying AC employees are unproductive and overpaid.

Exactly.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 9):
The fact remains that AC is not a going concern with its current business model and performance. Revenue HAS to exceed expenses on a sustainable basis, or the business will fold eventually. AC cannot cover these employees' current salaries, let alone these overly-generous increases.

Revenue > Expenses. Of course. But if you are trying to increase staff retention(hiring & training is very expensive) and increase morale (productivity), cutting salaries is not a good way to do it. Air Canada MAY have discovered that it is exactly cheaper to pay a bit more for it's existing staff than it is to rehire 10% (for example) of it's staff every year.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
Face it, AC is not set up to make a profit, is not making a profit, and will not make a profit ... but, is generating huge amounts of money for everyone ... except Air Canada.

   May be the most accurate assessment of Air Canada I've read in a long time.



Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5351 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 10):
The increase offered was certainly generous, the salaries are not. My nephew recently was hired as a Station Attendant at AC, at minimum wage, and part-time as most are ... his salary was about $1400 a month! He eventually quit and is working for Swissport now. Same job, higher pay. I am guessing AC is raising wages in an effort to stop employees from leaving.

That is the reality of starting a new job, you are the lowest paid employee there. However, I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport. The only thing is, there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year, that they have to pay new hires so little.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
The average cost per equivalent full time employee, INCLUDING pension and benefits at both AC and WS are within 2 %, of each other

While 2% might seem like a trivial amount, it certainly adds up when you take into account the # of employees AC has. I don't think AC will ever be able to lower their unit cost to near WS. I think WS will have a rising cost of their own, as the company gets older, and so do their employees.


User currently offlineAC_B777 From Canada, joined Aug 2000, 809 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5302 times:

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport. The only thing is, there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year, that they have to pay new hires so little.

Actually, new hires do not get any travel benefits for the first six months of their employment. And by then, their seniority is so low, that in most cases, it is hard for them to get on flights. Also, starting in March, we are only getting three "free" passes a year and after that we have to pay all the surcharges and fees, which, when said and done will hardly be worth using...better off buying a good seat sale.
As for the 65-80K per year, I can assure you that our salary is nowhere near that! I am at the top of our wage scale and my gross salary is in the mid 40k (and that is working some modest OT). Take off all our deductions, and my net salary is in the mid 30k per year, so where you get 65-80k is a mystery. That might be possible if you live at the airport and work OT night and day!
Actually, our current salary is sitting at mid 1990 levels!



In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5155 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
While 2% might seem like a trivial amount, it certainly adds up when you take into account the # of employees AC has.

For that extra 2%, AC employees are generating 23% more revenue per employee .... seems like a pretty good deal to me, from an efficient employee group.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
However, I'd say the travel benefits more then make up for that difference in pay between AC and Swissport.

As noted above, it is hardly a "benefit". And, making $1400 a month, how much traveling do you think they are doing??? Its probably all they can do to pay the rent!

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 16):
there are so many old rampee's making 65-80k a year

I love these urban legends. People swear that their neighbours son's girlfriend's sister's father makes that as an AC Station Attendant and he only works 4 days a month. But, when it comes to fact, it is barely half your estimate. And trust me I have heard them all.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinethreepoint From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 2185 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5214 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Would you please be so kind as to explain exactly which employee groups are, in your opinion, grossly overpaid? Please take care to include comparisons to equivalent employees of other airlines (Canadian or otherwise), or even to rofessions within other industries with comparable duties, staff, responsibilities, etc. Also note that among your readers will be members of the very employee groups you compare, so will be able to support your assessments.

Or not.



The nice thing about a mistake is the pleasure it gives others.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting threepoint (Reply 19):
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 12):
AC employees are, on average, grossly overpaid.

Would you please be so kind as to explain exactly which employee groups are, in your opinion, grossly overpaid?

Most likely, all. Based on 2 key statistics reported ad nauseum by AC and airline analysts:
1. AC's horrendous financials. This means very simply that expenses are exceeding revenue which is not sustainable. That salaries/wages form a huge component of AC costs.......they are going to have to fall across the board if AC is to become financially sustainable,
2. Several airline analysts reguarly quote that AC unit costs are 25% higher than WS (the standard bearer of an efficient, profitable, sustainable airline in Canada). This means productivity must rise by 25% or pay must drop by 25% or a mix of the 2 to reach levels of WS efficiency WS. Yes yes I know ppl keep saying that AC has widebodies and long haul routes....but these actually serve to increase efficiency (the opposite excuse that AC apologists want).

Airline analysts crunch the numbers and do their analysis WITHOUT any emotional bond to Montreal, or employee entitlements. So they have no bias for or against AC......but they do consistently report 25% higher unit costs than WS. Any AC employee can be expected to react emotionally to this (thinking they already work hard or are paid little blah blah blah) but their counterparts' efficiency at others carriers belies their whining.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3410 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5063 times:

Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 15):

Revenue > Expenses. Of course. But if you are trying to increase staff retention(hiring & training is very expensive) and increase morale (productivity), cutting salaries is not a good way to do it. Air Canada MAY have discovered that it is exactly cheaper to pay a bit more for it's existing staff than it is to rehire 10% (for example) of it's staff every year.

  
Most people forget thaat employees cost much more than they are paid initally and for an airline its more than just training, security clearance and backlground checks can't be cheap.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4972 times:

Quoting AC_B777 (Reply 17):
Also, starting in March, we are only getting three "free" passes a year and after that we have to pay all the surcharges and fees, which, when said and done will hardly be worth using...better off buying a good seat sale.
As for the 65-80K per year, I can assure you that our salary is nowhere near that! I am at the top of our wage scale and my gross salary is in the mid 40k (and that is working some modest OT). Take off all our deductions, and my net salary is in the mid 30k per year, so where you get 65-80k is a mystery. That might be possible if you live at the airport and work OT night and day!

Even with all the surcharges and fees you might have to pay, I guarantee you are still saving a substantial amount of money. Go on to your Aeronet and check the employee travel rates for a YVR-SYD return trip, and then compare the rates you can find online. Also, the fact you get 3 "free" passes a year baffles me. I'd love to hear you explain why you think AC should pay all the taxes and fees for you to travel? That salary is easily attainable by the senior guys (I'm talking 20+ years), and is often exceeded. Without saying too much, I've seen the numbers myself, and there ARE guys making that much. I will agree most of the newest hires (under 10 years seniority) won't come close to that.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
For that extra 2%, AC employees are generating 23% more revenue per employee .... seems like a pretty good deal to me, from an efficient employee group.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
As noted above, it is hardly a "benefit". And, making $1400 a month, how much traveling do you think they are doing??? Its probably all they can do to pay the rent!

Making $1400 before tax or after? You say working part-time, how many hours is that? Of course he can't afford to travel if he's only working part-time, why doesn't he work full time then? I'm not sure I see your point here, even $1400 a month on 20 hours a week is nothing to sneer at.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
love these urban legends. People swear that their neighbours son's girlfriend's sister's father makes that as an AC Station Attendant and he only works 4 days a month. But, when it comes to fact, it is barely half your estimate. And trust me I have heard them all.

You claim it's an urban legend, but have you seen all the employee payroll numbers? My understanding is that you're a pilot, not a financial guy working out of HQ, so I'm not sure how you can qualify your statement that it's only half that. I'm sure the majority of rampee's are less then the 65-80k a year range, but the fact remains there ARE numerous guys making that much a year. This I guarantee you. I'm sure you'll ask for proof, but understand that I'm not in a position to put an individual's, or a companie's financial information online for all to see.


User currently onlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 837 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4960 times:

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 22):
Even with all the surcharges and fees you might have to pay, I guarantee you are still saving a substantial amount of money. Go on to your Aeronet and check the employee travel rates for a YVR-SYD return trip, and then compare the rates you can find online. Also, the fact you get 3 "free" passes a year baffles me. I'd love to hear you explain why you think AC should pay all the taxes and fees for you to travel? That salary is easily attainable by the senior guys (I'm talking 20+ years), and is often exceeded. Without saying too much, I've seen the numbers myself, and there ARE guys making that much. I will agree most of the newest hires (under 10 years seniority) won't come close to that.

Anything overseas you do save but if you look at YYC to YVR or to YWG the savings aren't alot. Most short haul seat sales are pretty comparable. As for the 3 free, they are not free. You don't pay the services charges but you do pay the taxes. If your quoting aeronet then you should know that!

When it comes to the pay there are very few that could make that much money. Employees are limited to 104 hrs of OT per quarter. Pretty much makes it impossible to get to that amount. You don't need to work there 20+ years to make top rate. After 6 months you can become a lead and after another year you'll be at Lead 2 pay. That's more than top rate Station Attendants after just a year and half.

The most I ever made as a lead was in 2000 & 2001 after the takeover of CP. I think the most I made was 54k! After that my pay went down continually till I left.


User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4944 times:

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 23):

I'm sure short-haul domestic isn't that great, but the savings are still there, which was my original point. To say the flight benefits are worth nothing is selling it short IMHO. If I was 18, that would be a great way to see the world, even if you are on a budget. Just because you don't make much, doesn't mean you can't travel. I wasn't quoting Aeronet, and I guess I should have been more clear. Those three free passes a year could add up to significant value if they were used on long haul segments, so I was trying to point out the fact that even if some service charges have to be paid, they are still a good deal to the employee.

As for the pay, 104 hours of OT is a significant amount, even if it were only time and a half. Easily could add $10,000 or more a year to your earnings. All it takes to crack the 50k/yr mark is around $26/hr, of which I'm sure there are several making that. Add in some OT and the potential is there to make above 60k. Is it limited to a small percentage of employees? Sure, but it certainly does exist. I'm sure some of the guys who do the towing, deicing etc earn extra on their salary.


25 AC_B777 : Yes, it is still a savings, but not free. I am in Florida right now and my pass cost $215 for my family of 4. That was taxes, AIF's and some other fe
26 threepoint : I sniff a whiff of make-believe here. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but if you're at the top end of your stated age in your profile, you are fresh out
27 Skywatcher : Very lucidly stated. The government and employees are the primary beneficiaries of the AC business model. Customers generally do well by it. Investor
28 VonRichtofen : Rampers making 65-85k? Yeah if they're a top rate lead doing 20 hours of OT per week for the entire year. Not a chance.
29 ANM604 : From your post it seemed you were unhappy that you only got three "free" passes a year so I simply read between the lines. If that's not what you mea
30 whiteguy : @ANM604 For a station attendant making $23 per hour, thats $44,200 per year. If he/she worked 104 hrs of OT all 4 quarters per year that would be sala
31 ANM604 : I have acknowledged several times that it is not a common occurrence, I completely agree with you on that. All I said/meant is that there are people
32 whiteguy : Maybe the employees are sick of being called on to sacrifice? The CEO has made a 1500% increase in wage since 2002, the CFO has made a 385% raise, an
33 ANM604 : While I was alluding to the seemingly disconnected union bargaining committee, yes there is a disparity between the top executive pay and what is exp
34 longhauler : This is before tax ... and at 30 hours a week. Don't forget all new hires make around minimum wage. $300 x 52 weeks divided by 12. They would love to
35 threepoint : When one advances arguments on a public web forum that indicate that they have access to sensitive private company information that pertains to a cur
36 longhauler : And continually reducing employee wages wont solve the problem either. If AC employees generate more RPMs, and revenue per employee than WS, yet cost
37 ANM604 : So beyond employee costs, and the obvious fuel costs, where are the losses coming from? It's got to be somewhere. In my opinion, the capacity purchas
38 longhauler : Let me give you an example: I came from Canadian Airlines, and in 1996 Canadian was in financial trouble. I went to a presentation in the hangar on C
39 WestJet747 : Great story longhauler. I've heard dozens of examples just like this in my management classes. Even my most callous of professors preaches the import
40 whiteguy : It wasn't about the wage increases. It was about certain work rules, shifts, and pension. This was a 4 year contract but 1 year was already gone beca
41 longhauler : The capacity purchase agreement with Jazz was signed by the previous management during CCAA. This was the first successful effort to extract cash fro
42 canadianpylon : Great story Longhauler. Anybody who has taken a Communications course will tell you that is the PERFECT way to deliver bad news and still maintain a
43 connies4ever : As WS are starting to discover even with their 'baby' 736s. Te new regional carrier is in part a response to this. Agree entirely. It will be Air Geo
44 yyz717 : RM came across as crass and vulgar even when talking to the press. I'm not surprised he was worse in front of employee groups. Regardless, all AC emp
45 yyz717 : Corporate culture is not something you can put your finger on. It is usually driven by one thing and one thing only...profits. Profits will keep the
46 ANM604 : I completely agree, I believe AC management is too disconnected from their employees. But the question remains, what should they do about it? Fire Ca
47 connies4ever : The 321 is essentially a 320. There should be basically no mx issues and the a/c has a common type rating with the 320 and 319. As for the 330, I'd b
48 Post contains images YVRLTN : Honestly, for the size of Canada and type of markets served, I think the fleet is the lessor of the worries. Apart from the 330's, there are four dist
49 ANM604 : What about 767-400's? I'm sure they could have gotten some if they really wanted. I think that would have been a great looking plane in AC's colours!
50 Post contains images multimark : Right, 'cause QK is the root of all AC's problems, not, say, their own indifferent customer service or abysmal labour relations. Chorus seems pretty
51 YVRLTN : Im not sure it would either bottom line, it just reduces the pilots at AC and transfers the costs elsewhere. Its an interesting discussion though, be
52 whiteguy : Between Milton, Brewer and Rovinescu there aren't many $ bills left in HQ!!! Again 321s do not cost anymore to operate. They are operate right beside
53 yyz717 : That may seem logical from a fleet simplification strategy but AC unions would have to be onside to any more outsourcing of mainline capacity to Jazz
54 connies4ever : Don't forget that Boeing agreed to take at least some of AC's 340s as part of the T7 deal. Perhaps, but the 764 was tailored to requirements of CO an
55 longhauler : A very good friend of mine flies for WS and we recently discussed this. They recently signed an agreement with respect to the 40 turboprops, with hug
56 threepoint : With only a beker's dozen of these aircraft in the fleet, surely most of the shuffling of pilots could be accomplished through natural attrition? As
57 Skywatcher : I have to admit that I don't understand the mechanics of how this was achieved. I have owned AC stock (as well as CP and TS) in the past and got hamm
58 copper1 : Its just a game that has been played forever and will always be played....the players change, the rules are tweaked and onward we go.
59 Post contains links multimark : Is that the line down at the union hall? Doesn't seem to agree with this: "Randell told analysts he could not get into details of the contract disput
60 longhauler : I am not quite sure what you are getting at, but that is exactly what I am saying. Namely the CPA can not be cancelled without some sort of CCAA type
61 yyz717 : Realistically, they won't mess with a winning formula. What if AC is bought by a hard-as-nails investment company who decides to play tough with the
62 Viscount724 : I think the A321 suits AC best. it's lighter and more fuel-efficient. The 752 was also too close in capacity to AC's 762s and with CP operating wideb
63 longhauler : I an ideal world yes, but it is not. Investment firms, or raider barons whatever you want to call them, are only interested in short term gain .. the
64 CYLW : Not sure I follow. How exactly does a Captain of any airline generate revenue?
65 longhauler : You're kidding, right? Each employee of Air Canada generates 23% more revenue than each employee of Westjet.
66 Viscount724 : Shouldn't it be an easy number to calculate? AC doesn't have that many unions and it seems to me that whenever AC announces the results of union rati
67 longhauler : You know... I can do a single engine NDB circling approach, but that one never occurred to me. Good one, I am on it!
68 Post contains links Viscount724 : AC includes the average full-time equivalent employee count (AC only, excluding Jazz etc.) in the Highlights table on the first page of their latest
69 longhauler : Yes, that sounds like the number I was using earlier, with regard to RMP/employee and Revenue/employee. However, as elegant as your solution is, it w
70 CYLW : What specifically are you doing that generates more revenue than a WestJet captain? While AC may have 23% more revenue per employee, that doesn't mea
71 longhauler : Absolutely nothing, which is why the reverse is also true. If I am paid to safety and efficiently fly an aircraft from A to B, then the revenue manag
72 yyz717 : A meaningless statistic really, since AC is losing money and WS is making money. Clearly, the equivalent cost/employee for AC must be MUCH higher to
73 ANM604 : Agreed. What I'm saying, is there could potential be some cost savings in a simplified fleet. A bit? I would say substantial might be a better word.
74 longhauler : That is what I keep saying ... it is NOT much higher. If the cost per employee is 2% higher at AC than WS, including pensions and benefits, yet each
75 ANM604 : Influence? No. Minimize? Yes. Blaming pilot salaries for having higher fares isn't completely correct, there are many other expenses that are more si
76 whiteguy : I would think any extra cost associated with the A330s in the fleet is covered with any penalties being paid to AC by Boeing. The 330s were only kept
77 ANM604 : I don't think so, as I don't think Boeing would be paying that much in compensation. Keep in mind, they have already given AC some compensation publi
78 sebring : Air Canada's baggage handlers and mechanics union has served a strike notice for Monday, the beginning of March Break week in Canada. I can only surmi
79 multimark : I realize you were part of CP in the 90s and CRA was just one more money-losing part of that money-losing operation, but I can assure you Air BC was
80 yyz717 : I agree with you that the CEO of any money losing corporation should not be making that much money. And why he gets any bonus at all is beyond me. I'
81 Post contains links and images canadianpylon : I'm sure she realizes that she has removed the option of a lockout by the company by preventing strikes by the union. Minister urges Air Canada, unio
82 longhauler : My mistake, it is actually just over 3%, I was looking at another figure. But, to your question. I only use numbers in the public domain, as there is
83 Kaiarahi : Not true. There's also freight.
84 Skywatcher : I've been flying AC 3 or 4 times per year for decades. I am done with them for good once I cash in my aeroplan points. It seems every time I book with
85 Kaiarahi : Really? You must be incredibly unlucky. I've been flying AC 40+ times a year for over 30 years and only once been affected by a work stoppage.
86 ANM604 : I, for one, am sick of this constant back and forth. The union needs to figure it's stuff out just as much as management does. They say that employee
87 yyz717 : Ya I know, but you know what I mean. Some union members (not necessarily any on here) seem to think that management pays salaries & wages, but th
88 Boeingorbust : Actually heard a stat this week that AC's cost structure is about 30% higher than WS's. The hardcore's and WS haters on here are going to hate that I
89 9252fly : That's interesting,I heard a story years ago that's a bit different from the one you tell.
90 longhauler : That sounds in the ball park. But then AC's yield is quite a bit higher than WS too. But, it is the difference that is more important, and WS has the
91 Post contains links YXD172 : I'm not too sure how you got those numbers, so likely I'm just understanding the report differently. However, going by the fourth quarter results in
92 Fiedman : Quick question I am flying out of YYC with Air Canada Jazz on monday if there is a strike will Jazz flights be effected?
93 A346Dude : I'm assuming if AC is grounded, so is Jazz. Ground handling of Jazz flights at hubs is generally handled by AC mainline.
94 multimark : Is there anything stopping Jazz from contracting it out to a third party? This is what AC employees just don't get. This is what, the third time with
95 Kaiarahi : That actually makes it hearsay - I heard it, I have no evidence, but it's a fact because I say it's a fact. Nothing to do with hating WS - just eleme
96 Kaiarahi : That's one model, but by no means the only one - there are other highly successful models, some of them mixed. Absolutes are never helpful to underst
97 kiramakora : I find it hilarious that every week there is more drama at AC, another threat of a strike, an A.Net forum debate, and then the same crowd of AC employ
98 Boeingorbust : I'm sure WS's CEO isn't makeing $5.0M bonuses. Maybe that has something to do with it. AC I think has reduced cost structure over previous years but
99 ANM604 : You'd be foolish to think that Greg isn't making an absolute fortune off WS stock, even though I'm sure WS would never reveal what his compensation i
100 yyz717 : Well said. On all points. I hope Greg is making a fortune. He is running a growing, profitable carrier.
101 sebring : They are a publicly traded company. You can go look at what his compensation is at SEDAR.com
102 Post contains images multimark : And add to that he steered the creation of a regional carrier successfully through a vote of current WS "mainline" employees, whereas AC pilots still
103 Viscount724 : Detailed compensation information of the 5 most highly-paid employees of all publicly-traded companies must be included in the proxy statement issued
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