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Why Don't DL Fly LHR To SLC?  
User currently offline757ops From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 318 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 8978 times:

Hi

As a regular DL traveller from LHR I am still surprised that they don't start a LHR to SLC service on the 764

Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

What are your thoughts?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8913 times:

LHR is on SLC's wish list, but keep in mind that DL's SLC-CDG service, which has hub connectivity on both ends is less-than-daily during the weather.

I'm sure DL has looked at serving the market, but ultimately feels that its limited LHR slots are of better use to their hubs and larger O&D markets in the eastern part of the country.

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

Yes, but so does MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK. There are ample connecting opportunities from all but the smallest markets (that are only connected to SLC, but their contribution to LHR is minimal) in the west coast / mountain west over other DL hubs.


User currently offlineplanesailing From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 816 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8833 times:

Technically it is under the composite DL6 from LHR thru to SLC.

User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8684 times:

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

All of the main metropolitan areas in the Western U.S. already have N/S to LHR via BA (LAS, PHX, SAN, LAX, SFO, SEA, DEN) or a domestic U.S. based carrier.

Therefore, DL would need to heavily rely on SLC's O&D (which is small) or traffic from other smaller Western U.S. cities. In addition, I think this would cannibalize, to some extent, traffic on the SLC-CDG route.


User currently offlinerocbufden From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8653 times:

Also, there are not a lot of Sky Team connections to be made in LHR either as compared to CDG with AF.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8497 times:

Back before DL flew into LHR, we were in a competition for a SLC-London route. There were to be two routes awarded, from two gateways. An airline could only be awarded one route......AA submitted RDU-London and BNA-London, hoping to get one of them (or so we thought). We thought we had the SLC route, in the bag. That's when the politicians in Nashville and Tennessee stepped in and made the same application. The two routes awarded were RDU-London to AA and BNA-London to this group, who promptly had AA "operate" the route for them, avoiding the 1 airline rule.

We were so sure we had it, that we were already formulating plans in cargo as to how we were going to handle it.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinejkudall From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 615 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8465 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 3):
Therefore, DL would need to heavily rely on SLC's O&D (which is small) or traffic from other smaller Western U.S. cities. In addition, I think this would cannibalize, to some extent, traffic on the SLC-CDG route.

SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA which all have n/s flights to London. Now in the case of IAD and MIA, a lot of their O&D spreads among other nearby airports so they don't really count.

London is SLC's highest overseas O&D destination. With connecting possibilities from places all out west, they could easily operate this route.

I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

SLC pushed DL to start London service back in the 1990's, an appliation was filed with the DOT but they awarded it to AA to start service from BNA which didn't last long.

I think SLC-London is a high possibility. Granted SLC-CDG benefits from downline connections at both CDG and SLC, but there is significantly more SLC travelers flying to London than CDG and points beyond.

I think we'll see the route someday. The city will probably subsidize it at first like they did with CDG (DL has since taken on all financial liability on the route and stayed with the route because it has been very successful.)


User currently onlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2986 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8279 times:

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):

I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

I have gotten that impression from other postings too, that the route does very very well.

I recall when DL applied for SLC-LGW right around the same time that AA was going to start SJC-LGW just before 9/11. I don't recall what happened to that. I think it was later than the time AA was awarded BNA-LGW.

Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

Is SLC-NRT done for good?


User currently offlinecipango From Ireland, joined Jul 2009, 585 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8244 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

AMS will probably happen first. LHR is slot restricted lets not forget and SLC wouldn't have the highest yields to justify bidding gold dust for a slot.



Next Flights: DUB-KEF-DUB, DUB-DXB-MEL-DXB-DUB, DUB-MAN-DME-MAN-DUB, DUB-CDG-KUL-CAN-HKG-KUL-CDG-DUB
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8198 times:

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA which all have n/s flights to London. Now in the case of IAD and MIA, a lot of their O&D spreads among other nearby airports so they don't really count.

Right, but the traffic going into all of these cities is arguably much higher-yielding than SLC. In Charlotte, you have strong banking and finance ties, which is actually why US has successfully grown CLT as a TATL gateway over the years.

RDU, although only served with a single daily flight on AA to LHR, has a corporate contract thanks to the Research Triangle in N.C.

IAD is the nation's Capital, and Miami attracts a lot of premium traffic.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
I will point out that SLC-CDG and CDG-SLC legs consistently have higher load factors than most or all of Delta's routes to or from CDG.

Even if the LF's into SLC, it doesn't mean much in terms of how high-yielding it is.

Delta seemed to have mixed results on their LHR-BOS/MIA experimentation, so for some reason I don't see them giving SLC a try.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4123 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8126 times:

All of the above arguments are valid. What you must remember is that DL is really set for Europe using AMS and CDG as connector hubs. Going to LHR with its slot restrictions, just doesn't make sense from a network point of view. They don't have to connections with other Skyteam members except to their respective hubs and DL really doesn't need another US city pair to LHR. Also when you talk about the slots, were they not from AF and not new slots awarded to DL?


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 10):
Also when you talk about the slots, were they not from AF and not new slots awarded to DL?

Or AZ.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Is SLC-NRT done for good?

Yes.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8043 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):

I recall when DL applied for SLC-LGW right around the same time that AA was going to start SJC-LGW just before 9/11. I don't recall what happened to that. I think it was later than the time AA was awarded BNA-LGW.

As I stated before, SLC-LGW was applied for at the same time as RDU-London and BNA-London, in the '90s. AA was awarded the RDU route and the business/political group in BNA was awarded the London route, which was given to AA to operate, thereby circumventing the rules so AA could have both routes.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7997 times:

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC airport has higher O&D totals than CLT,RDU,IAD,MIA


IAD & MIA cover metro areas that have multiple airports so, as you mentioned, the O&D numbers are diluted.

However, we all know CLT is all about connecting service and RDU has a corporate contract supporting the AA RDU-LHR flight. and this is the only European N/S route from RDU. Also, both CLT & RDU have shorter stage lengths than SLC which will help on profitability, especially as oil prices continue to increase.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
London is SLC's highest overseas O&D destination. With connecting possibilities from places all out west, they could easily operate this route.


I don't doubt this, but just because London is the highest overseas O&D destination does not mean that it can support a N/S flight profitably, especially considering SLC already has a N/S European flight.

I have no doubts that they can fill the plane, but I think they would have to offer lower fares to attract passengers due to the number of more convenient to LHR from other western U.S. cities. The competing CDG flight, the long stage length, lower fares, and high oil prices are substantial obstacles to overcome.

Quoting jkudall (Reply 6):
SLC pushed DL to start London service back in the 1990's, an application was filed with the DOT but they awarded it to AA to start service from BNA which didn't last long.


I believe this was before SLC had their CDG flight.


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7985 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 7):
Which will happen first: SLC-LHR or SLC-AMS?

Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

With the AA/BA joint venture and hopefully the BD slots coming IAG's way might we see LHR-SLC on BA metal ?

Don't know anything about SLC or its market to Europe so would be interested to find out.

[Edited 2012-02-23 09:36:01]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7912 times:

Quoting 757ops (Thread starter):
Wouldn't SLC have great connection opportunities to West Coast/LAS/PHX etc....

As previously noted, all of the major western markets already have nonstop service to LHR, or they can just as easily connect to LHR through AMS/MSP/ATL/JFK. Think of some of the bigger markets in the west without nonstop service - PDX, SJC, ABQ - all of these markets can connect elsewhere just as easily as SLC. SLC itself has an easy one-stop option through MSP/DTW.

Also with the heavy slot restrictions at LHR, I am sure DL would rather build frequency at JFK/ATL and perhaps DTW/MSP before adding flights to additional hubs.

I agree with others that AMS is probably more likely than LHR.


User currently offlineBD338 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 702 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7798 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

In one from or another (mainline or regional) DL has around 75% of the market share in SLC. Around 15M or so passengers a year (O&D and connecting)

Personally, I hope for SLC-AMS before SLC-LHR. Better connections into Europe but this may bleed off competing traffic into CDG which DL probably wouldn't want to do. I would much rather connect in AMS than CDG.


User currently offlineredzeppelin From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 552 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7655 times:

I flew the CDG-SLC segment last summer, and can attest that it was completely full for that one particular day. I would estimate that the passengers were about 60% Americans and 40% Europeans. I spoke to a few of the Americans who were returning to their homes in places like Fresno, Sacramento and Tuscon. I spoke to or overheard Europeans who were going to places like Las Vegas, Yellowstone, or various parts of California. There were also plenty of SLC O/D passengers. An SLC airport employee indicated that this was a fairly typical scenario. The fact that there were so many Europeans on board suggests to me that the success of the flight does depend on capturing AF/SkyTeam customers, which may or may not mean anything for a potential London route. Of course, my experience in booking that flight and researching other flights to onward destinations in Europe is that Delta is able to charge a premium for it. From my home base in BZN, it always seems to cost quite a bit more than equivalent itineraries that connect through MSP.


Happiness is rediscovering a forgotten L-1011 in your flight log.
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7507 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Is SLC strictly DL turf ? Do they have a large presence there ?

It is a pretty sizable hub, and I'd definitely consider it a success story given that it's held its ground during the merger and also hasn't lost a lot of market share to the LCCs that have come through. Definitely smart of Delta to pour their investments into keeping the SLC hub over DFW when making that difficult decision back in 2004.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
With the AA/BA joint venture and hopefully the BD slots coming IAG's way might we see LHR-SLC on BA metal ?

I don't see it. There is lower-hanging fruit for AA/BA out there right now, and especially with aircraft utilization capabilities, they can go into markets further east (such as BDL, DTW, PIT, CVG, etc) using a smaller fleet that fits within range.



next flights: msp-phx-slc, msp-mdw, ord-sju, sju-dfw-ord, msp-dfw, dfw-phl, phl-msp, jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3002 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7195 times:

Didn't United try to operate London to Denver a few years back and this got dropped after a while, due to low demand?

Im not all that familiar with this region of the US, but they look in a similar region. Would SLC face the same issues as Denver did?


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6407 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

Did WA ever fly Salt Lake City-London???


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6879 times:
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Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 20):
Did WA ever fly Salt Lake City-London???

No Western only served Denver - Gatwick with a DC10-30 and Honolulu- Anchorage- Gatwick with a DC10-10 !


User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3077 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6844 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 19):
Im not all that familiar with this region of the US, but they look in a similar region. Would SLC face the same issues as Denver did?

Probably even more issues - a smaller hub, smaller city, and less of a business base. Also, a bit less centrally-located.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6673 times:

Salt Lake City while gorgeous and growing is the 50th largest US metropolitan area, just behind Birmingham Alabama. There are many larger Metro areas in the US that probably have higher O&D potential for flights to London than Salt Lake City;

18 St.Louis
22 Pittsburgh
23 Portland OR
28 Cleveland
29 Kansas City
31 San Jose
32 Columbus
34 Indianapolis
37 Providence
38 Nashville
39 Milwaukee
45 Hartford
46 New Orleans



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6346 times:

Quoting redzeppelin (Reply 17):
I flew the CDG-SLC segment last summer, and can attest that it was completely full for that one particular day.

Most trans-atlantic flights in the summer are full most of the time. That really doesn't say much.



When in doubt, one B pump off
25 SLCUT2777 : You need to include the Ogden and Provo metro-areas in a combined Wasatch Front MSA before any of those cities are above SLC.
26 SLCUT2777 : VS has actaully approached SLC airport management about an LGW or LHR flight over the past decade, and if anyone else than DL tried SLC-London it woul
27 BoeingGuy : STL, BNA, CLE, PIT and MSY has had London service. SJC almost got it to the point where the flight times were created. PDX is the only city on your l
28 drerx7 : [ While SLC is not a city that I would say I have had a blast in, its a decent town. I can't see any of the above routes coming to fruition except Lon
29 flyguy89 : Yes, but as pointed out earlier, all of those cities are either well-connected to, close to, or are cities that have frequent and diverse non-stops t
30 dia77 : It wasn't due to lack of demand - there definitely is demand between DEN and LHR (as shown by BA and DOT traffic numbers). The flight was dropped bec
31 redzeppelin : Just checked--it was actually on September 22, so pretty well after the Summer season.
32 PSU.DTW.SCE : That is still generally under the summer schedule. Demand really doesn't fall off until October. Full flights mean absoletely nothing about the econo
33 slcdeltarumd11 : AS others said the real problem is that SLC has so many Delta hubs on the way to connect people thru. Theres MSP, JFK, and DTW literally on the way an
34 usdcaguy : Which is correct. I believe SLC-LHR could pull too many people off MSP-LHR, which relies heavily on feed from other cities. MSP has retained service
35 Post contains images ual777uk : With the so called build up that DL have been trying at LAX for sometime i would have thought that LHR-LAX would be more prudent before SLC. It would
36 RWA380 : SLC doesn't need to capture O/D traffic with a non-stop flight, most people who travel in and out of SLC, ARE loyal DL fliers, they will connect throu
37 slcdeltarumd11 : I dont think it would have been much different. The flight was sold on delta.com and showed up on every search engine and was listed as a delta fligh
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