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Will UAL Upgrade EWR-LHR?  
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 8 months 2 days ago) and read 11796 times:

UAL currently flies many 757-200's to LHR. Is this really the best use for valuable slots at LHR and a congested airport like EWR?


Are there any plans to upgrade these flights to 787 once UAL has acquired a decent amount?

Does UAL plan to grow EWR traffic by upgrading aircraft size?

100 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewashingtonian From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11712 times:

Quoting aquablue (Thread starter):
Does UAL plan to grow EWR traffic by upgrading aircraft size?

Over the long-term, this is the only possible solution. But an airline like United has tremendous flexibility. They have MANY regional flights to move around, so it's going to be a while before they are forced to upguage for capacity reasons alone. They could operate multiple daily EWR-LHR on 757s for quite a while if they so desired.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11642 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 1):
Over the long-term, this is the only possible solution. But an airline like United has tremendous flexibility. They have MANY regional flights to move around, so it's going to be a while before they are forced to upguage for capacity reasons alone. They could operate multiple daily EWR-LHR on 757s for quite a while if they so desired.

I'm guessing the OP is talking about switching to 3-class planes.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 11556 times:

Quoting aquablue (Thread starter):
UAL currently flies many 757-200's to LHR.

4 757s and 1 777.

Quoting aquablue (Thread starter):
Are there any plans to upgrade these flights to 787 once UAL has acquired a decent amount?

Yes, was mentioned in the Wall Street Journal interview with CO's Chief 787 pilot.

Quoting aquablue (Thread starter):
Does UAL plan to grow EWR traffic by upgrading aircraft size?

Already doing that, replacing 50 seat ERjs with 70 seat Q400s, CR7s and ERJ-170s.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11426 times:

Quoting washingtonian (Reply 1):

Is there not enough demand to offer 767 flights to LHR rather than 757?

Many people don't like the 757 long distance because they find them cramped. Is this really the best strategy to compete with BA and VS? who are using wide bodies?

[Edited 2012-02-24 13:28:22]

[Edited 2012-02-24 13:33:15]

User currently offlinestaralliance85 From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11401 times:

EWR-LHR is one of the most popular routes from the NYC area. If UA wants to have it the way it is as 4 757s and 1 777 that should be fine. I think UA should use a 3 class 777 config rather than a 2 class 777 config. In addition to the 3 class 777, they might cut one of the 757s and use a 3 class 767. There are many people who will pay for First Class to LHR.


brad Fitzpatrick
User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11375 times:

Quoting staralliance85 (Reply 5):

How can they compete with BA and VS with a 757 though. Many people loath narrow body planes transatlantic. Why can't they fly 4 flights with a 777 and 3 767/787?

Will we see a 787 on this route?

[Edited 2012-02-24 13:35:47]

[Edited 2012-02-24 13:36:44]

[Edited 2012-02-24 13:46:38]

User currently offlineTermbewr From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11253 times:

Quoting aquablue (Reply 6):

Frequency, service and loyalty programs are what appeal to the business traveler, not neccessarily aircraft size. I've flown Business First and coach many times on CO 777s and 757s transatlantic. Once you sit down in your seat, the ride is exactly the same.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6663 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11239 times:

Apparently once the 787 are in full swing EWR-LHR is supposed to get one.

Otherwise I'm surprised they haven't at the least put a 3 class 763 on the route yet. But I guess high yield destinations such as BRU, ZRH, EZE and IST take precedent from EWR.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11224 times:

Most people couldn't tell the difference between a 757, 767, and 777. On the inside they're basically the same. The 757 on EWR-LHR isn't a issue to 99% of customers.

User currently offlinethreeifbyair From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11185 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 8):
But I guess high yield destinations such as BRU, ZRH, EZE and IST take precedent from EWR.

That, and the fact that a 752 lacks the range for EZE, IST, etc. from EWR.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11174 times:

Quoting Termbewr (Reply 7):
Frequency, service and loyalty programs are what appeal to the business traveler, not neccessarily aircraft size. I've flown Business First and coach many times on CO 777s and 757s transatlantic. Once you sit down in your seat, the ride is exactly the same.

BA has First class.
BA has more flights.
BA has all widebody while UA/CO is mostly 757s.
BA definitely has better service.

Which leaves only the loyalty program where UA/CO might even be able to compete. They need to do better.


User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11127 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has First class.

Truth.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has more flights.

Yep.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has all widebody while UA/CO is mostly 757s.

Truth but if UA/CO is making money with their 757's why stop flying the '57's out there

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA definitely has better service.

Never flown BA so I can't comment.


User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 11110 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):

I agree.

They should really upgrade the aircraft to a 767.


User currently offlineaquablue From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11072 times:

Quoting CO787EWR (Reply 12):

Why can't UA make money on a larger plane and BA can?


User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7309 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11078 times:
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It's funny CO has the 787 chief pilot talking out of this butt. He doesn't make the decisions to fly that frame. It'll be years before you see that from Newark to Heathrow. However, this summer with the Olympics the frames will upgauge to LHR from EWR. You'll see the 777 more than 1x daily.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has First class.
BA has more flights.
BA has all widebody while UA/CO is mostly 757s.
BA definitely has better service.

No, no, no and no.

I go to the UK at least once a month for work and there is little difference on a 6 hr flight to LHR. BA is a lot of fluff. They lost a lot of the glamor in the last 4-5 years with the economy. CO in their stupid named hybrid biz/first is just as good. Let me know when you've flown both on a regular basis and can make a legit comment on the matter. I have flown both and do regularly.



I miss the old Anet.
User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6663 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 10888 times:

Quoting threeifbyair (Reply 10):

None of those destinations would be appropriate for the 757 even if it had the range. They lack premium seating.

Quoting fxramper (Reply 15):

Seems that UA Bizfirst, BA's F, AA's J, and DL BizElite are practically on the same level anyway. Pick your poison, as they say.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlinePVG From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2004, 727 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10768 times:

BA service is not better than UA anymore. I fly them several times a year, there is no validity to that claim.

User currently offlineTermbewr From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 57 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 10655 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):

BA does have First Class and CO does not. However, with regard to major corporate contracts, many companies prohibit First Class travel but permit Business Class on flights over 6 hours, which CO offers. I agree though that CO in-flight service, particulaly in coach, can use some polish.


User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1843 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10630 times:
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Folks, if BA was killing UA on the EWR to LHR run due to larger a/c and/or "posh" biz/first class service, UA would've upgauged their service/aircraft to compete. These decisions are scrutinized by bean counters up one side and down the other. They now have the a/c to move three class a/c to EWR if they felt the need.

Basically, its you lot that are upset about the 757's. They have the range, they offer nose to tail avod and do everything that a 747 does on that route with one less aisle (and ofc a few less lavs   )


User currently offlineORDJOE From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10481 times:

Quoting PVG (Reply 17):
BA service is not better than UA anymor

It definitly has slipped at F J and Y over the years, but I do think it is a tad nicer than any US carrier

Quoting Termbewr (Reply 18):
many companies prohibit First Class travel but permit Business Class

There are a lot more business travels that can book international F than you would think. If you are on the upper end of middle management or better at the big banks or bulge bracket consulting firms, then there is a good chance they allow them to buy F. First class is often to reward the elites that are buying J tickets as on AA and UA they can use a system wide upgrade to move into first.

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 16):
Seems that UA Bizfirst, BA's F, AA's J, and DL BizElite are practically on the same level anyway. Pick your poison, as they say.

BA's F is far far better than AA, UA, and DL's J product. I will agree BA's F product is not what it is like 5 years ago or more, but BA has far better food and booze than any of those and the seat is much bigger. Also I would say BA's concorde room at LHR for F pax is possibly the best airline lounge in the world (SQ has that Private dining room that might be better I have only seen a few pictures of it)


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2099 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10452 times:

Quoting aquablue (Thread starter):
UAL currently flies many 757-200's to LHR. Is this really the best use for valuable slots at LHR and a congested airport like EWR?

Are there any plans to upgrade these flights to 787 once UAL has acquired a decent amount?

LHR is far more congested than EWR. AA and BA dominate NYC-LON and UA cannot upguage to 772s or even 763s without crashing yield. At the same time, they need to offer frequencies and squat on LHR slots so the 757s will stay for a while. In the long term however, I cannot see how they will be competitive with AA if they do not offer 3-class service on EWR-LHR. Most of the connecting traffic to LHR is routed through IAD and they may shift some seats from IAD-LHR to EWR-LHR.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5736 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10440 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 19):
if BA was killing UA on the EWR to LHR run due to larger a/c and/or "posh" biz/first class service

Let's not forget they're based at different ends of the route: BA has corporate contracts in London and UACO in NYC. Admittedly there may be some cross-over, but they're probably not stepping on each others toes too much at the pointy end...



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 10434 times:

Quoting fxramper (Reply 15):

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has First class.
BA has more flights.
BA has all widebody while UA/CO is mostly 757s.
BA definitely has better service.

No, no, no and no.

I go to the UK at least once a month for work and there is little difference on a 6 hr flight to LHR. BA is a lot of fluff. They lost a lot of the glamor in the last 4-5 years with the economy. CO in their stupid named hybrid biz/first is just as good. Let me know when you've flown both on a regular basis and can make a legit comment on the matter. I have flown both and do regularly.

I've flown CO's BF a few times, including CO's longest flight, and it's a nice seat but the service is nothing to brag about (i.e. just par for the course).

I'm saying those things as a CO gold tier - I want UA/CO to excel, but I'm realistic about their weaknesses too. I'm not proposing to go all 777s for the sake of it, but at least bring some flights to 3-class level and bring others to 767 level. I'd pay good money to avoid the 757 (up to 8 hours on the westbound).


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 10320 times:
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Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 11):
BA has First class.

Do people actually pay for first class on a short hop like NYC-LHR or is it all people using miles to upgrade from J.

I know that it the route links two of the most important business centres on the planet, but it seems an awfully short route for first class to make sense.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 mogandoCI : Apparently big enough for BA alone to offer close to 100 F seats each way, every day. Apparently big enough that it's one of the only 2 routes that s
26 ORDJOE : Plenty, think of all the people that make over million dollar salaries, a 15K ticket to them is not all that much. I have a couple friends in investm
27 kiwiandrew : I suppose so, I just find it odd in these days of shrinking budgets that companies would still be prepared to pay for F over J on a route that seems
28 slcdeltarumd11 : I agree. I would say 99.99+% of people at least. The 757s have nice businessfirst seats and in coach who cares. Its not like the widebodies give you
29 nethkt : Single aisle transatlantic won't be a big deal until it's a big deal. It's time for an airlines to promote something like ; '2 aisles across the atlan
30 klwright69 : EWR is a capacity controlled airport, and so is LHR. It is only a matter of time until UA upgrades EWRLHR flights. I mean we have to look at this long
31 jfk777 : The reason they fly 4 757 is the fleet mix Continental has. They need the longer range 767 & 777 for other routes, since the 757 can fly from New
32 staralliance85 : BA service is not better than UA anymore. I fly them several times a year, there is no validity to that claim. Totally Agree. BA had a 4-5 Star airli
33 flylku : Goodness, I always thought the 777 I saw over there at T4 was from EWR. I always forget about IAH. When does UA move CO ops to Terminal 1? Earlier thi
34 slcdeltarumd11 : Yeah also as said LHR is close enough to the Northeast that this route is pretty reliable so a good place to put the 757. This is not a route where th
35 jfk777 : Continental's fleet today its use of 757 is a consequence of new routes and post 9/11 planning. Back in 2001 no one knew LHR was going to open up and
36 SonomaFlyer : CO was the first airline based in the U.S. to order the 787. Had Boeing delivered as originally promised, CO would have somewhere between 15 and 20 7
37 Post contains links STT757 : CO began flying 757s on Trans-Atlantic routes back in 1995, I specifically can recall an interview with Gordon Bethune in the late '90s when they lau
38 nycdave : Not to bring up all this again, but BA from JFK and UA from EWR are NOT competing for all the same market. EWR and JFK cover different areas, with the
39 JAAlbert : This is true IMHO. A narrowbody with a decent business class product isn't a bad ride. I've flown CO's international business class B/F product on th
40 PVG : I think that the BA C class product is dated. The IFE is poor, and the staff can often be rude depending on the day. It is simply not true that they
41 aquablue : Is it not possible for UA aircraft to be used from EWR yet? If so, couldn't they transfer some 767's from UA's network to EWR ?
42 STT757 : PMUA aircraft are flying EWR-BRU (777), EWR-ZRH (763) and soon EWR-EZE. They also have a PMUA 763 operating IAH-LIM. Also EWR-IST launches this Summe
43 VC10er : I fly to LHR from NYC all the time!!! For years! At least 6 times if not 10 times a year. Most times I am in full fare business. I actually enjoy the
44 flylku : What is the limiting factor?
45 CO787EWR : I believe the taxiways are to close together.
46 iainbhx : BA F is way above the J products mentioned, it's also better in soft product than AA F. However, I have no objection to my annual trip on UA/CO BF on
47 RogerCamel : Personally, I quite like the 757 over the Atlantic - fewer PAX - shorter waiting times in the airports (the same reason why I would choose a 773 over
48 N62NA : Correct. JFK siphons off most of the Manhattan traffic. Yeah.... except that the 757 is much narrower and only has 1 aisle. Other than that, they're
49 fun2fly : I wonder what type of upgauge we'll see in August for the Olympics. Surely, at least all 767's on the LHR runs, if not larger? The capacity and pricin
50 STT757 : I can't believe VS still has their two daily EWR flights, and BA their 3 daily EWR flights. The nerve to inconvenience their Manhattan passengers so
51 jfk777 : I am well aware of CO's use of the 777 to Israel, India and Asia. While 757 have always been " the plan", that "plan" was before LHR existed at CO. 7
52 STT757 : Help me out, what does CO's CH-11 fillings in 1982 and 1991 have to do with them flying 757s to LHR in 2012?
53 Post contains images kgaiflyer : It's the seat pitch -- not the type of aircraft -- that dictates roominess. With the appropriate seat pitch, a CR7 can be made roomy and a 747 can be
54 N62NA : This is a fact. This has nothing to do with the fact I stated above.
55 STT757 : Shouldn't it be the other way around?
56 N62NA : I think it should be much closer to 50-50 than it is now, but the fact is, people in Manhattan prefer JFK/LGA over EWR.
57 STT757 : But of the 18 million people in the NYC/Newark statistical area only 1.5 million reside in Manhattan.
58 N62NA : We've been down this road before. I (or someone else) points out that most people east of the Hudson river use JFK/LGA and then you start bringing up
59 CONTACREW : I live in manhattan, and I prefer EWR over JFK/LGA...Its a matter of conveinece for me, since EWR also happens to be where Im based out of.
60 TIA : Yes they can. I have flown 757s a gazillion of times in the past but only on shorter hops. Flew on one transatlantic for the first time on LHR-EWR-LH
61 Termbewr : I also live in Manhattan (Upper East Side) and use EWR and LGA, not JFK. Sitting in dead-stop traffic on the LIE and Van Wyck isn't my idea of fun...
62 aquablue : If united made a nicer terminal at EWR (i mean brand new), I think the situation would be more even and more NYers would fly out of Newark. Also, chan
63 kgaiflyer : Meaning no disrespect to Newark and northern New Jersey, users of Baltimore-Washington International and Dallas-Fort Worth International would agree
64 jfk777 : CO dealt with all the crazy workrules and pension issues during BK.
65 N62NA : But that's the whole point - it feels more claustrophobic / cramped because it is smaller. A fact that is lost on all those UA/CO 757 TATL supporters
66 CODC10 : We can argue it all we want, but it won't change anything. It also does not change the fact that 757s are going out full to Europe every day, despite
67 STT757 : Why does it seem that everyone who complains about CO's trans-Atlantic 757 flights have never actually flown one. And those who have complimentary thi
68 aquablue : Hmm... I doubt it. If 1 seat ride access was there from midtown direct to the terminals, I'm not so sure that would hold up.
69 N62NA : All you need to do is fly East Coast to West Coast during one of those 6+ hour flights and you get the same "experience."
70 TOMMY767 : As said, I think it's a matter of time before we see a UA 763 or 777 step onto EWR-LHR. It needs 3 class. The 757s aren't enough. UA flies 763s on EWR
71 captainstefan : The key here is frequency, y'all. UA could definitely offer 3 763s instead of 4 752s, but having an additional frequency is a key tool in catering to
72 Post contains images boilerla : Well, considering UA's PS service for SFO/LAX-JFK is considered to be one of the most widely profitable routes in the domestic network, I'd say peopl
73 STT757 : The improvements CO made about 10 years ago to Terminal C, the C-3 concourse and FIS etc, are much nicer than most other facilities in the area (I kn
74 CHRISBA777ER : I'm booked to do LHR-EWR-LHR on UACO in Feb 2013. Any chance of a 767 or even better, a 788?
75 TOMMY767 : This got approved? I thought it was rejected several years back. "Too expensive" the Port said. Terminal C is functional but it's certainly not a loo
76 LOWS : Coming from IAH's latest terminal (E?) and expecting EWR C to be a renovated "Global Gateway" back in December 2011, I was, to say the least, deflate
77 Post contains links STT757 : Here's the latest from the Port Authority: http://www.panynj.gov/press-room/press-item.cfm?headLine_id=1539
78 daviation : I don't think I can add much to this discussion except puzzlement at some of the posters' intractable positions. I flew CO EWR-LHR-EWR last summer on
79 mogandoCI : You're confusing correlation with causation here. 757s are full because of a variety of reasons, including potentially bottom tier pricing, people lo
80 Post contains images COEWR787 : Do you really think EWR needs help to get people to use it? As it is it can hardly handle all those that already want to use it irrespective of its c
81 STT757 : Keep in mind, up until a month or so ago besides CO's own five daily EWR-LHR (4 757, 1 777) CO also codeshared with VS on their two daily EWR-LHR and
82 TOMMY767 : Exactly. This isn't EWR-LAX where they can run 5x 757s and call it day -- Heathrow is a premium market and it needs a premium 3 class bird. If IAD ca
83 COEWR787 : I think the issue with choice of aircraft for EWR - LHR for UA has mainly to do with where best to deploy their assets. LHR admittedly is a huge O/D m
84 N62NA : You can't compare a UA p.s. 757 to what UA/CO flies TATL out of EWR. But.... ... with an emphasis on "no alternative choice" for those living west of
85 klwright69 : Yes. But it's only a matter of time until they upgrade the aircraft I am certain. They needed the slots to be competitive with the aircraft they have
86 Post contains links STT757 : How much does it have to do with EWR consistently having the highest fares in the Nation? JFK not having a dominant hub carrier and a sizable LCC (B6
87 Post contains links STT757 : You think perhaps the 25% difference might be a driving force behind where travelers fly to/from Manhattan? http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...rp
88 avek00 : If BA wants to fight an ad war on space, it should go right ahead...and get clowned as United's (Continental's) seat configurations offers MORE room
89 N62NA : I'm convinced it's psychology. You are "leaving the state" when you go to EWR, whereas with JFK you are just going out to Queens.
90 STT757 : Queens is probably more foreign to Manhattan residents than New Jersey.
91 mogandoCI : You're confusing correlation with causation here. 3 airlines hub in JFK. 1 in EWR. Assuming every airline has equal customer preference, JFK would ha
92 CODC10 : I'm not sure about that, I would say there are other reasons why EWR does not attract as much NYC-originating traffic as JFK/LGA. I live in Manhattan
93 N62NA : Except that, for example, UA p.s. and AA "Transcon Flagship Service" (or whatever they call it) only runs from JFK.
94 mogandoCI : The old UA served JFK extensively (compared to a handful of flights to EWR), so naturally their p.s. service would descend from their old 762 transon
95 CODC10 : Absolutely, but that does not mean JFK-LAX/SFO is the only valuable corporate market in NYC. For instance, CO makes a fortune on many of its short-ha
96 FlyPNS1 : But all else will NEVER be equal, so your study is kind of moot. And I've got even worse news for you, coach is generally cramped and uncomfortable f
97 mogandoCI : That was my original point - "if" all else is equal, 757 is already at a disadvantage to 777 ... now pair it with the rest of the issues, and CO's 75
98 SeatMap246 : I definitely think they should put a mix of 767-300 and 777 3 cabin aircraft on this route. They will steal share just by giving travelers the opportu
99 boilerla : Not sure what you mean here. The US ps birds nowadays are run of the mill (back in the day they were pretty nice). They're still not bad--better than
100 Post contains links nycdave : Jeez guys, see, THIS is why I was afraid to even bring it up. Anyhow, anyone can go here: http://www.panynj.gov/airports/pdf-traffic/ATR2010.pdf and l
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