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WP (Island Air) Leasing ATR72s  
User currently offlineBeachBoy From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 53 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4092 times:

Island Air in Hawaii has signed a LOI to lease 3 ATR 72s in 2012 and 3 more in 2013. I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs. Didn't realize there was that much demand for the routes they serve. Also, with HA creating their OGG hub don't know if there is much more "connecting the dots" left. In addition, as we all know people in Hawaii (myself included) prefer jets.

My only thought is that maybe they have an agreement in place to become a feeder service for AS, DL, UA, AA, etc. who might be unhappy with HA. Speaking to other Hawaii travelers, we kind of feel HA's customer service, while still very good, has gone downhill (they're becoming somewhat arrogant) since they essentially have a monopoly on interisland travel. If the way HA treats their customers is any indication of how they treat their codeshare partners, I'm sure carriers like UA (who was closer to AQ to begin with) would be happy to have an alternative. In addition, tourists probably aren't as discriminating with the type of aircraft they fly.

It'll be interesting to see what WP has planned . . .

http://www.islandair.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/2012-02-23.pdf

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLimaFoxTango From Antigua and Barbuda, joined Jun 2004, 807 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn...


You are said to be a good pilot when your take-off's equal your landings.
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1041 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3946 times:

Can the ATRs fly into Kapalua?


xx
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3810 times:

It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA. Go failed miserably in exploiting the vacuum created when AQ went under, which is why HA has a near-monopoly on interisland flights now.

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs

Frankly it's a bit silly that they didn't go to the ATR before, especially when they made their ill-fated purchase of Q400s a few years back. Their flights are so short the extra speed of the Dash 8 is basically meaningless and flying a Dash 8 instead of a ATR, or for that matter a 50 or 70 seat jet instead of a turboprop, is more or less throwing money away.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offline817Dreamliiner From Montserrat, joined Jul 2008, 2598 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3624 times:

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn...

Well, if they dont make a replacement, this will continue to happen and they will only have themselves to blame



Reality be Rent. Synapse, break! Vanishment, This World!
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3464 times:

Quoting LimaFoxTango (Reply 1):
Another Dash 8 operator gone ATR. When will Bombardier learn..

A blow for DHC given that Island Air had decided in favor of the Q400 in the past:


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User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2776 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Good move by Island Air. Many island operators around the world operate ATRs quite succesfully, and now they are also joining the club. And yet another loss for Bombardier...

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
I'm surprised by the almost doubling of capacity on their planes from 37 seats in their Dash 8s to 60+ in the ATRs.

They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

Quoting BeachBoy (Thread starter):
as we all know people in Hawaii (myself included) prefer jets.

In terms of time there should be no difference to jets. In terms of comfort, it's a pity that they are getting older -212s, the -500 is quite improved and IMO equal or superior in comfort to RJ's.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1910 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3235 times:

Quoting usxguy (Reply 2):

Can the ATRs fly into Kapalua?

Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500....

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

Yes, very true, and they will carry 70 paxs, ATR fuel burn and maintenance is excellent.

Are these planes coming from American Eagle??


User currently offlineUnited_fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7542 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?


'Empathy was yesterday...Today, you're wasting my Mother-F'ing time' - Heat.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3686 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 3):
It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA.

WP and HA are FFP partners.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinerojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2482 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

"Island Air today announced details of a Letter of Intent signed with a Lessor for the introduction of three (3) ATR 72-212 aircraft into their fleet before the end of 2012"

I wonder if these frames will come from American Eagle OW ?
AA just announced the return of most of its ATR72's (210's and 212's) to the lessor...


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500....

Well, I remember that EW ordered ATR72-212s in the early 1990s to operate from DTM, which had then, IIRC, a 1050m runway. The original ATR72 could not operate from such a runway, but the "hot & high" -212 could (which is nowadays the standard model). Given the relativetively short distances to HNL and OGG, it will probably not be a major problem. AE operates its ATR72-212s into some Caribbean airports with shortish runways.

[Edited 2012-02-27 15:56:17]

User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1910 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 12):
Well, I remember that EW ordered ATR72-212s in the early 1990s to operate from DTM, which had then, IIRC, a 1050m runway. The original ATR72 could not operate from such a runway, but the "hot & high" -212 could (which is nowadays the standard model). Given the relativetively short distances to HNL and OGG, it will probably not be a major problem. AE operates its ATR72-212s into some Caribbean airports with shortish runways.

They will never operate an ATR72 in such a short runways, it´s only 900m, the Dash 8-100, can do it easily but not the ATR, even with very few fuel on board. Even with the 42-500 they will struggle to take off with a nice load.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 9):
How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?

Not by ship, that for sure, the ATR can fly almost around 8:20 mins with 5000kgs of fuel, but even that it´s a bit short maybe, however I have never heard of Any ATR using extra tanks, but maybe this time they have to do....
Actually it will be interesting to see how they do, I hope they make an article or something about it....
Anyone can explain how did did they bring the Dash 8´s???


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 8):
Forget about that.... Very short... to do a more or less safe operation at least 1.200-1.400m.... landing is possible... but taking off with such a short runway it will be with a very very big limitation, even if they order some ATR42-500

They could do what I've done on Island Air in the past and fly JHM-OGG, then catch HA to HNL, I bet they can use the ATR or they keep a Dash 8 or two to fly JHM, It's been full everytime I've flown into JHM from HNL. It will be nice to see LNY and MKK get an upgauge. I miss Princeville airways, flying into Princeville from HNL.

Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 3):
It'd be nice if WP is able to hack a bigger niche against HA.

Yeah doesn't WP fly HA's LNY and MKK passengers?



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineHNLPointShoot From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting United_fan (Reply 9):
How do they get them to Hawaii? Ferry tanks or on a ship?
Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
Anyone can explain how did did they bring the Dash 8´s???

The ATRs will most likely fly in with ferry tanks, the same way HA uses to get their 717s to and from the mainland.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 10):
WP and HA are FFP partners.

True, but that's most likely because WP flies to JHM, MKK, and LNY, airports HA haven't served in years. If WP can put in a few extra flights to other places like OGG and LIH, it'd at least mean there's a meaningful alternative to HA and Go! (and HA would therefore have to put some effort into winning over passengers).


User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
They will never operate an ATR72 in such a short runways, it´s only 900m,

OK. Did not read your previous post carefully and thought the runway was 1.200 to 1.400m. 900m is indeed to short for the ATR42/72 as 1.050m is already critical. Another example that niche markets will be facing problems in the future because of a gap in the aircraft market between 20 and 50 seats.


User currently offlinebrains From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2694 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 7):
They can probably operate those ATRs for the same cost, if not less, than their old Dash 8s (100/200 series), which means they get those extra seats "for free".

It should be an improvement but dont forget they'll need an extra FA because of the extra seats. Employee overhead is going to increase. I think you're right though, should be a definite improvement.



Brains
User currently offlineSurfandSnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2908 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

This move makes sense to me. Island Air appears to be by far the second-strongest carrier in the interisland market, having maintained a strong niche well behind HA (with its nearly 20 strong fleet of 717s dedicated to the high frequency trunk routes between Hawaii's five major airports) but seemingly well ahead of the flagging go!/Mokulele operation that appears to be on its last legs. It seems that HA, with the recent acquisition of several additional [second-hand] 717s, and now WP, with the acquisition of a fleet type approximately twice as large as their existing Dash 8s, are preparing (or perhaps facilitating) the collapse of the YV CRJ operation.

The ATR 72s should give Island Air a better opportunity to compete on the major routes to/from/between its hubs at HNL and OGG and the competitive major outstations of KOA and LIH. Perhaps this will even afford them an opportunity to return to ITO.

Then there are the smaller interisland markets of MKK, LNY, and JHM. WP is the leading and/or only carrier to these markets. It sounds like WP ultimately intends to replace the entire Dash 8 fleet with the larger ATRs, although they are somewhat elusive about the exact type coming in 2013. Perhaps they will keep a few Dash 8s for these popular/established routes, given the limited demand and/or operational constraints to and from these tiny airports. Or, perhaps they will go for the smaller ATR-42, which is a relatively small increase in capacity and size/weight from the current 37 seat type they currently use. Obviously MKK and LNY will have no issue operationally handling any ATR types, as both airports used to accommodate the HA 717. However, HA pulled out of both airports in 2004 due to extremely low load factors. Given the relatively limited tourist accommodations and small local populations on both islands, the economic case for the ~70 seat ATR-72 may simply not be there. As for JHM, I have no idea what aircraft types can get off that incredibly short 3,000 foot runway. Obviously the close proximity of several major West Maui resorts means filling larger planes can be easily accomplished, but I have to believe the 37-seat Dash 8 may well be the biggest plane that can get in and out of there without massive operating restrictions...

In any case, I hope all goes well with these ambitious growth plan. We saw the prominent early/mid-2000s growth plans of WP (Q400), MW (E-170), and YV (90 seat RJs) all derailed by excessive interisland competition, which resulted in the withdrawal of the larger aircraft types by WP and MW, the collapse of AQ, and the indefinite delay of the larger birds for YV - not to mention the recent retrenchment of their entire operation. That said, Hawaii supported two major HA and AQ interisland operations for decades and there is probably room for a strong second player to break what has almost become an HA monopoly on the major trunk routes.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinevfw614 From Germany, joined Dec 2001, 4062 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

Given that JHM is "just" a secondary airport on Maui, my gut feeling feeling is that nothing really depends on continuing services from there other than the comfort of some (high end) tourists. It is 30 mile from OGG, pretty much like LIH and Princeville in the past. Nice to have the option for a short-cut, but not overly dramatic if the airport is no longer served by larger aircraft - or am I missing something here? The only relason for WP to keep a sub-fleet just for that airport would be spectacular yields on flights from JMH that easily off-set any costs associated with operating an odd-ball aircraft type.

User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1041 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2465 times:

I'm still amazed how many travelers to Lahaina/Kaanapali/West Maui actually PREFER the drive

> _



xx
User currently offlineAV8AJET From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1361 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting usxguy (Reply 20):
I'm still amazed how many travelers to Lahaina/Kaanapali/West Maui actually PREFER the drive

I Love the drive! The scenery is spectacular and I always love honking the horn thru the tunnels!!! We don't even notice the time it take to gets to Kaanapali, it's Hawaii after all and we are never in a hurry when there.



"To fly or not to fly there is no question!"
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting SurfandSnow (Reply 18):
with the acquisition of a fleet type approximately twice as large as their existing Dash 8s, are preparing (or perhaps facilitating) the collapse of the YV CRJ operation.

This would be a lovely piece of irony. The entry of Go! was the final push that sent Aloha into oblivion. Now Island Air (a former subsidiary of Aloha) may provide the final push that sends Go! packing back to the mainland. I wonder who Jonathan Ornstein will point his finger at this time when assigning blame for Go!'s departure?  
Quoting vfw614 (Reply 19):
Given that JHM is "just" a secondary airport on Maui, my gut feeling feeling is that nothing really depends on continuing services from there other than the comfort of some (high end) tourists. It is 30 mile from OGG, pretty much like LIH and Princeville in the past. Nice to have the option for a short-cut, but not overly dramatic if the airport is no longer served by larger aircraft - or am I missing something here?

Yes, some people like the drive around McGregor point from OGG to Lahaina. But during rush hour, it can take 2+ hours to drive that route, especially if your hotel is well past Lahaina, say Napili or Kapalua. I think there will continue to be a small but steady demand for flights to JHM. Hopefully Island Air, or even one of the Caravan operators will continue to offer that service.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
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