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Cockpit Video Of Windshear Landing DC-9-30  
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 27
Posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23898 times:

Hello everyone,

Just came across this video of a DC-9-30 landing in CCS under what seems to be some severe wind conditions. It's said to be windshear.

Looking at the control inputs from the Captain, I would think a go-around would've been required.

At certain points of the approach, I would qualify it as a non-stabilized final approach, which back in aviation school would have required an immediate go-around...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZJbr9KNmTs&t=1m50s

Any thoughts?

797


Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23863 times:

It certainly looks blustery. They obviously felt that they could safely land in those weather conditions.
On a side note, they should clear the rubber off that runway! There must be 20 tires worth of rubber on that thing!
Good video.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6597 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23775 times:

Looks like a bit of mechanical turbulence off the high hill to the left, and quite a bit of overcontrolling by the pilot. If you look, for every big left control input he is making (Presumably to counter a perceived right roll), he almost immediately puts in a near-equal amount of right aileron, presumably to counter the left roll he has just created himself.

User currently offlineVARIG MD-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 23773 times:

Great video, thanks for the link

"any thoughts?"

perdona, but when I watch this I can't help thinking he was doing a "demo" of how he is a macho for the one filming...that's how us latino do stupid things sometimes  



AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE
User currently offline797 From Venezuela, joined Aug 2005, 1894 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 23671 times:

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 3):
perdona, but when I watch this I can't help thinking he was doing a "demo" of how he is a macho for the one filming...that's how us latino do stupid things sometimes  

This is why I love a.net. Someone always writes the stuff I really want to say!   I have a big bias against Venezuelan pilots... at one point, instead of flying all they do is show off. You're absolutely right.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):
quite a bit of overcontrolling by the pilot.

That's just what I thought. Completely unnecessary. I would've failed a bunch of check rides if I had done such thing.

797



Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
User currently offlineVARIG MD-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1594 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 23604 times:

Gracias for the comments, my pleasure!

Quoting 797 (Reply 4):
at one point, instead of flying all they do is show off
Quoting 797 (Reply 4):
That's just what I thought. Completely unnecessary


If you look at the brutality of his gestures and the way he handles the controls, everything say "gorilla".
He reminds me the bad boys back at school who fake macho gestures just to prove they have b....
 



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User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 23156 times:

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):
and quite a bit of overcontrolling by the pilot.

I wouldn't say severe wind conditions, but certainly a blustery day. He perhaps was overcontrolling a little bit, but I would disagree with "quite a bit." Remember that the DC-9 family of airplanes have control tabs instead of hydraulic actuated ailerons so they tend to be quite spongy and slow to react at slow speeds as compared to other aircraft types. On a blustery day with gusty winds the DC-9 can be a hand full to keep aligned with a runway unless you take agressive control of the situation. In this video I agree he may be over doing it a little, but if you watch his attitude indicator it really isn't moving much when he does it which means he is in fact countering a gust induced drop of the wing. Additionally watch the throttles. He cobbs the power a few times to counter the loss of airspeed. It looks mostly to be a normal gusty approach in a DC-9 to me who has 2,000 hours flying different types of DC-9's.


727forever



727forever
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 22924 times:

There was no windshear as there would have been an aural warning.

The approach was never unstable. Do you know the criteria?

This airplane is probably 50 years old. Ever drive a car with no power steering?

Pssh, the bank angle was never more than 5 degrees the entire approach.

Keep to your flight sims.



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1552 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22551 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 7):
There was no windshear as there would have been an aural warning.

The approach was never unstable. Do you know the criteria?

This airplane is probably 50 years old. Ever drive a car with no power steering?

Pssh, the bank angle was never more than 5 degrees the entire approach.

Keep to your flight sims.

   Can't agree more! Nothing about that approach looked remotely unstable! Certain situations require you to be proactive with the flight controls, rather then reactive, and that is exactly what the Captain was doing!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinemd80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2660 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22472 times:

The artificial horizon stays nicely still .... I think the relative motion of the cameraperson on the jumpseat, plus the focus on the yoke roll movement might be leading one to presume a highly unstable approach.

User currently offlineChimborazo From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 22420 times:

It does look a bit like he's driving a car in an old film where the "outside" is being projected onto a screen and the driver moves the wheel back and forth constantly to simulate driving  

However, as others have said: it looks quite stable.


User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 21187 times:

If you ignore the control inputs and look outside the windows you'll see that the plane is mostly stable. All that we have here are some excessive control inputs by the captain.


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19820 times:

Quoting md80fanatic (Reply 9):
I think the relative motion of the cameraperson on the jumpseat,

This is indeed the main effect. If you look closely the camera wobbles a lot more than the plane, all plane movements are increased threefold in the video due to the camera. As far as I can see it, there is only one bit, just before landing, where the plane is making a sudden movement, but nothing really serious. After all, his speed, altitude and touchdown point seem to be spot on. Afterwards the plane (or the camera   ) seems to be banking left to right wildly as well, with all wheels on the ground.

I will refrain from commenting on the way the pilot flies, as I don't know the ins and outs of a DC-9.


User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 19124 times:

Exactly what part of the aircraft does the steering column/yolk control? Based on how the captain was yanking that thing hard left and then hard right makes me wonder what that actually controls because the plane never made any sudden movements. Does anyone know what happens to the plane when you move the yolk?


every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlineChimborazo From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17784 times:

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 13):
Exactly what part of the aircraft does the steering column/yolk control? Based on how the captain was yanking that thing hard left and then hard right makes me wonder what that actually controls because the plane never made any sudden movements. Does anyone know what happens to the plane when you move the yolk?

Seriously?!  

The left to right turning of the yolk controls the ailerons and therefore roll. I know slightly more than nothing about the DC-9 except it has servo tab controls. The flight ccvontrol surfaces produce less of an effect at lower flying speeds so need bigger inputs on any plane. On the DC-9 I believe it's mechanically linked so to get a bigger deflection (required at low speeds) you have a big yoke input.


User currently offlinecuban8 From Kiribati, joined Sep 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 17430 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 7):
There was no wind shear as there would have been an aural warning.

A wind shear is not defined by an aural warning. It is defined by a severe wind shift and usually you'll get an aural warning. I do agree with you that this case is not even close to a windshear though.

Quoting 0NEWAIR0 (Reply 11):
If you ignore the control inputs and look outside the windows you'll see that the plane is mostly stable. All that we have here are some excessive control inputs by the captain.

correct   


User currently offlinetb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1586 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15364 times:

Looks pretty normal to me. You would be surprised at what your hands are doing on the yoke. I have some video of me landing the 72' and after I watched it I couldn't believe how much movement your hands are doing on a fairly breezy approach. My Captain purposely tried on the next leg to not move his hands as much and the plane was all over the place and he had to go back to what looked "abnormal" if that's all you focused on was the yoke movements.

It takes what it takes to control the airplane. Stop to stop is pretty normal in really windy conditions. My favorite conditions for landing! I love a good challenge.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineJHCRJ700 From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 14098 times:

I was expecting something a lot more intense. It almost looks like the pilot is just playing around with the controls a little bit.


RUSH
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 13454 times:

It was the pilot who was overcontrolling, nothing more. I've seen a small number of pilots who habitually overcontrol on final, and I have no idea why they do that, other than it may be an instinctive reaction to light turbulence. It's usually the more 'nervous' pilots that do it too. The fact that the -9 had mechanical ailerons has nothing to do with it. I jumpseated many times in the HA DC-9's years ago, and even landing in strong gusty conditions in OGG, nobody ever had to overcontrol like the Captain in the video did.

Take a close look at the horizon in the video while he's steering - he's the one moving the plane around, not the wind.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineoutbackair From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 32 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 7):
Keep to your flight sims.

Best comment I've seen in ages. Thank you!

Why do flight simmers seem to think they are pilots? I'm not one, so wouldn't pretend to know. Just like you wouldn't pretend to be a doctor, vet or nuclear scientist.


User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12800 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting flaps30 (Reply 13):
yolk?
Quoting Chimborazo (Reply 14):
yolk

"Yolk"? That's part of an egg!

I believe "Yoke" is what you're after.

Sorry, couldn't resist!!!



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4981 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12627 times:

If you over control the wing oscillations like that all you do is end up "chasing" them making them even worse. Correction movements should be smaller than that. Been there, done that.

But then again we weren't there were we?

[Edited 2012-02-27 16:26:25]


Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1573 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12231 times:

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 7):
Keep to your flight sims.

Ouch, harsh! Somebody missed a dose of his happy pills this morning. Since when does a person posting on A-net haveta be correct?

Quoting VARIG MD-11 (Reply 5):
If you look at the brutality of his gestures

Brutality - interesting descriptor! I don't know if I'd like my pilot being brutal.

Quoting HAL (Reply 18):
Take a close look at the horizon in the video while he's steering - he's the one moving the plane around, not the wind.

I always stand with HAL. He's so rational - and he works for my favorite airline!

I could give my opinion as to what I believe is going on in that cockpit - but I'd just get yelled at.

Okay . . . heading back to my flight sim now . . .


User currently offlinesoon7x7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 12055 times:

Seemed like an atmosphere full of convection rather than wind shear. Did not notice pitch corrections at all and if their were they were minimal. At slow speed strong convection requires much roll input, sometimes immediate converse directions. Nothing strange here...

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11274 times:

I did not see one bit of windshear at all in the whole video, but I saw a little bit of mechanical turbulence followed by a whole lot of "pilot induced turbulence"

I have a student that does this exact thing. He is the jerkiest, twitchiest, most uncomfortable pilot I've ever come across and it is extremely aggravating. One time we were shooting and approach and we were all over the freaking place. He claimed it was really windy and bumpy. It was barely breezy. I told him "you wanna bet?, Let go of the controls" As soon as he let go, I just trimmed the airplane for a nice 500fpm decent and we followed the ILS needles almost perfectly centered all the way to minima, without me making any further corrections. My student was amazed. I always teach them to let the plane do the work, to never fight it (unless death is imminent) and fly with their fingers, not their fists while making the "death grip". Most grasp this concept well and they become immensely smoother pilots afterwards.Yet to this date that one kid still can't get over his freaking twitchiness.   

Some people have very poor motor skills. It's a fact of life.

(and no I'm not saying I'm god's gift to aviation and that this is the definitive explanation of what happened, it's just my educated opinion, so chill out)

Quoting 797 (Thread starter):
Looking at the control inputs from the Captain, I would think a go-around would've been required.
Quoting 797 (Thread starter):

At certain points of the approach, I would qualify it as a non-stabilized final approach, which back in aviation school would have required an immediate go-around...

No, not even remotely close. May want to read up on stabilized approach criteria again.

Quoting CX Flyboy (Reply 2):
Looks like a bit of mechanical turbulence off the high hill to the left, and quite a bit of overcontrolling by the pilot. If you look, for every big left control input he is making (Presumably to counter a perceived right roll), he almost immediately puts in a near-equal amount of right aileron, presumably to counter the left roll he has just created himself.

Looks like textbook PIO to me.

Quoting seven3seven (Reply 7):
There was no windshear as there would have been an aural warning.

The approach was never unstable. Do you know the criteria?

This airplane is probably 50 years old. Ever drive a car with no power steering?

Pssh, the bank angle was never more than 5 degrees the entire approach.

Keep to your flight sims.

Amen!

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 22):
Since when does a person posting on A-net haveta be correct?

Since never. But those of us in the know are getting tired of having to correct and deal with the overreactions of the armchair pilots on here over and over again which seem to as of lately taken over the site.

[Edited 2012-02-27 17:41:09]

25 TheRedBaron : I was expecting to see, real danger here.... I have seen a lot worse from the jumpseat... I love the Dc-9, its like and old porsche.... even the lever
26 Max Q : Definitely overcontrolling.
27 qf744fan : While I'm sure the original comment wasn't intended as an insult, but rather just gentle mocking, I have to agree with this comment. Forums are forum
28 F9Animal : I enjoyed the video! He landed the bird, and it looked way cool. Maybe the yoke imputs were a bit dramatic, but I won't dismiss that they were not nec
29 tdscanuck : Nor would you expect it to. Sudden movements of the yoke cause sudden movements *of the control surfaces*. In order to get the plane to actually move
30 GoBoeing : That's nothing. I have a video of a Northwest DC-9 landing in the midwest taken a few years ago with 35-40 knot gusts all the way down and at a 40-60
31 727forever : HAL, generally I agree with you and respect your opinions. This time, you are wrong. Comparing your "experience" on the jumpseat in paradise to actua
32 MATURRO727 : Well in my humble opinion i have to say: I´ve shoot that same approach to CCS several times -though not on a DC-9- and let me tell you, it gets bumpy
33 Max Q : I flew the MD80 for four years, it is basically a stretched DC9-50 with bigger engines and wing, the flight controls are similarly unpowered, control
34 797 : "Keep to your flight sims" - Smooth! Would be nice of you to check on profiles before assuming stuff my friend. And this should be also gained with e
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