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UA To Start SFO-DCA-SFO Route  
User currently onlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15420 times:

With the new beyond perimeter slots becoming available at DCA, UA has filed to swap one ORD roundtrip for one SFO roundtrip. The first flight is planned for May 14th. They intend to use a 73G or "other suitable single-aisle non-wodebody aircraft." The proposed schedule is tentative as follows:

DCA 0800 arrive SFO 1110

SFO 1230 arrive DCA 2045


John@SFO
143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1553 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15414 times:

I saw the 73G mentioned in the other thread as well, along with mention of a possible upgauge to a 738. I always figured this would be a 757 route, since they'd probably want to have as much capacity as possible - is SFO too much for a 757 out of DCA? I would think that an AS 738 to LAX probably takes at least as much runway as a 757 would to SFO.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15414 times:

FYI, this is already being discussed as part of the overall DCA beyond-perimeter proceedings here:

Eight More DCA Beyond-Perimeter Slots - Pt 2 (by SANFan Feb 27 2012 in Civil Aviation)

bb


User currently offlineredrooster3 From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 229 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15400 times:

This is huge news, even for us in SAN. Did the bill already get passed?! Could we now see trans-con DCA routes?


The only thing you should change about a woman is her last name.
User currently onlinelegacyins From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15337 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):

Sorry missed that one...



John@SFO
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15294 times:

Quoting legacyins (Reply 4):
Sorry missed that one...

No prob, just wanted to let you know. (The UA decision was revealed on that thread yesterday even though the news was only posted on the DOT docket this morning.)

  

bb


User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15189 times:

Quoting legacyins (Thread starter):
DCA 0800 arrive SFO 1110

SFO 1230 arrive DCA 2045

Flight times are terrible for business travelers. 8am DCA departure? This should be a 6am...getting in early enough to do business for the day. The other direction, leaving at 1230? That wastes the entire day. It should be an overnight flight or at worst, first thing 6am flight that allows you to do business on a Weekday than return home first thing the next morning.

I just forwarded this schedule to a friend of mine that travels this route every week that at first he was very excited about the prospects of a DCA-SFO nonstop on UA and now that I've shown him the schedule...his quote was "these times are completely worthless for me and everybody else in my company" By the way, he works for Deloitte.


User currently onlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3092 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 15076 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
Flight times are terrible for business travelers. 8am DCA departure? This should be a 6am...getting in early enough to do business for the day. The other direction, leaving at 1230? That wastes the entire day. It should be an overnight flight or at worst, first thing 6am flight that allows you to do business on a Weekday than return home first thing the next morning.

They're convenient for business travelers based in the DC area. The timings allow a morning, and allow a morning of work before going to the airport. These west coast to NY/DC flights can't leave much later than this and arrive at a reasonable time in DC.

That said, it looks more like these are timed to SFO's Asian departure bank. They also allow easy connections to other destinations on the west coast.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14975 times:

BTW, I thought I'd point out that the title of this thread is somewhat misleading. UA did not apply for anything; UA selected, and will fly, SFO-DCA. The process in these proceedings is for UA and the other Big 4 cx to select their new DCA-route, and begin flying it. Very simple. (See the other threads for details and further discussions.)

bb


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1364 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14878 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
Flight times are terrible for business travelers.

Times are meant to feed and connect to UA's Pacific bank of flights.

Check out UA's other low frequency service at SFO, and they are mostly built around the noon'ish peak.

Good choice UA   


User currently offlinewedgetail737 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5893 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14778 times:
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Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
Flight times are terrible for business travelers. 8am DCA departure? This should be a 6am...getting in early enough to do business for the day. The other direction, leaving at 1230? That wastes the entire day. It should be an overnight flight or at worst, first thing 6am flight that allows you to do business on a Weekday than return home first thing the next morning.

This departure time is good for Asia travelers out of SFO and good enough for those connecting through SFO from up and down the west coast.


User currently offlinejoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14756 times:

Quoting rwsea (Reply 7):
They're convenient for business travelers based in the DC area. The timings allow a morning, and allow a morning of work before going to the airport. These west coast to NY/DC flights can't leave much later than this and arrive at a reasonable time in DC.

That said, it looks more like these are timed to SFO's Asian departure bank. They also allow easy connections to other destinations on the west coast.

Not true..he lives in DC and goes to SFO every week...leaves Monday am first thing and back Thursday night or first thing friday morning after work. This schedule doesn't work for him at all and I suspect many others that do the same thing as him.

SFO-DCA needs to leave at 6am or at 1130pm for the business traveler and DCA-SFO needs to leave at 6am to get you in early enough to get work done that Monday.


User currently onlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1634 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14708 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
SFO-DCA needs to leave at 6am or at 1130pm for the business traveler and DCA-SFO needs to leave at 6am to get you in early enough to get work done that Monday.

In the case of DCA-SFO, what business is UA leaving on the table, though? Passengers currently would be departing DCA as early as possible on Monday morning, which is probably around 5:30 AM at the earliest, and getting to SFO maybe an hour sooner than the UA non-stop by the time they make a connection somewhere. Given the choice between a 5:30-10:00 itinerary and an 8:00-11:10 itinerary, a lot of folks will pick the non-stop, get a few extra hours of sleep before they leave, and still end up with the afternoon to work in the Bay Area.


User currently offlineTOMMY767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14710 times:

8am leaving DCA is OK but out of SFO the time is ridiculous.

I also think this should be an easy 757 route for UA. Either PMCO 757 or PMUA 757.

If this route ever gains momentum I'd love to see DCA-SFO under the PS brand.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5049 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14671 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):


SFO-DCA needs to leave at 6am or at 1130pm for the business traveler and DCA-SFO needs to leave at 6am to get you in early enough to get work done that Monday.

One nonstop flight in each direction can't possibly serve all the needs of every pax. Plenty of one-stop connecting possibilities plus nonstops to IAD. The DCA nonstop to/from SFO is timed to maximize Asian connections it appears, until the perimeter rule goes away and airlines can utilize their slots as they see fit, this schedule is as good enough for now.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineSouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14617 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
Not true..he lives in DC and goes to SFO every week...leaves Monday am first thing and back Thursday night or first thing friday morning after work. This schedule doesn't work for him at all and I suspect many others that do the same thing as him.

SFO-DCA needs to leave at 6am or at 1130pm for the business traveler and DCA-SFO needs to leave at 6am to get you in early enough to get work done that Monday.

Thing is UA has exactly one slot to play with here, so they probably crunched some numbers and figured these times were optimal for the way this flight is going to be used by most customers. I'm sure if they could they'd love to have another flight timed perfectly for your friend and other business travelers (though honestly, I would think lots of business travelers might be willing to adjust their schedules for the sake of having a non-stop instead of a connection, plus unless somebody up and puts a Concorde on this route it's just going to take awhile to get from DCA-SFO and back so there's always going to be some time sacrificed).



What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14569 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
Flight times are terrible for business travelers.
Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
"these times are completely worthless for me and everybody else in my company"
Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
8am leaving DCA is OK but out of SFO the time is ridiculous.

Wow. How times have changed the last 100 years. Let's be happy he doesn't have to go on horse and buggy.
I think in general some of these statements are overly dramatic. You'd have less sleep from the DC end if you leave on a 1 stop connection with a negligible earlier arrival time. Geez.

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 15):
I would think lots of business travelers might be willing to adjust their schedules for the sake of having a non-stop instead of a connection
Quoting steex (Reply 12):
In the case of DCA-SFO, what business is UA leaving on the table, though? Passengers currently would be departing DCA as early as possible on Monday morning, which is probably around 5:30 AM at the earliest, and getting to SFO maybe an hour sooner than the UA non-stop by the time they make a connection somewhere. Given the choice between a 5:30-10:00 itinerary and an 8:00-11:10 itinerary, a lot of folks will pick the non-stop, get a few extra hours of sleep before they leave, and still end up with the afternoon to work in the Bay Area.

Exactly.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1438 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14466 times:

Quoting TOMMY767 (Reply 13):
out of SFO the time is ridiculous.

Well, UA must have done a simple costs/utilization/benefit analysis. Also, take into consideration there would be no other nonstop alternative (competition), aside from Pelosi's military charter, I'd say UA makes a good proposal.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2405 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14447 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):

There are so many business travelers between SFO and Washington that I'm sure the flight will time out ideally for many of them. In the meantime, your friend can continue using IAD for the superior schedule despite the longer transit time to the airport.

At any rate, the earliest DCA-ORD-SFO for tomorrow leaves at 6:00am, transits ORD with a 49m connection, and arrives SFO at 10:48am... exactly 22 minutes sooner than the proposed nonstop with an 8:00am departure.

The 6am IAD-SFO is still available, as is a 7:40am flight, but you have to factor in travel time to get out to IAD (which really isn't bad at that hour) plus time processing at the airport. DCA is such a convenient airport for Washington that I'm sure travelers will be motivated to take the DCA flight simply because they are trying to avoid IAD.

This doesn't even take into account the possibility of easy transpacific connections at SFO around the arrival time of the new flight. There's a reason why the two early IAD-SFO flights are usually A319/320 and the 8:23am flight is a 777... if the 8am departure time was such an absolute nightmare for business travelers, I think we would see the 777 on an earlier flight, no?

As for the return, the time difference makes conducting business on the East Coast the day of arrival problematic. This schedule allows for an early morning in SFO or a transpacific arrival to connect to the DCA flight. IMO, it's a well-timed trip, and if you don't like it, there's still a full schedule to IAD.


User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2088 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 14039 times:

UA's chances are probably fairly low. The routes are more likely to go to LCCs like B6 or VX.

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1553 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13999 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 19):

UA's chances are probably fairly low. The routes are more likely to go to LCCs like B6 or VX.

Sorry to be a troll, but this is only a matter of UA (and the other 3 legacies) declaring their plans, and the within perimeter major hub slot that will get cut to "trade" for the beyond-perimeter slot. These 4 were specifically reserved for the 4 legacy carriers at DCA.


User currently onlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3092 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13962 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 11):
SFO-DCA needs to leave at 6am or at 1130pm for the business traveler and DCA-SFO needs to leave at 6am to get you in early enough to get work done that Monday.

For your typical consultant who travels cross country (and I am one of them), these timings are fine. It's perfectly acceptable to arrive around lunch time on Monday, and depart after lunch... especially when transcons (and another 5 hours of productive time on the plane) are involved.

With only one possibly frequency, UA can't serve everyone. The timings will do well with connections and to feed the Asian flights.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 13832 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
Flight times are terrible for business travelers. 8am DCA departure? This should be a 6am...getting in early enough to do business for the day.

Maybe I'm weak... but if I had to catch a 6am flight, by the time I arrived at SFO the only thing I would be ready for would be a bed.


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13671 times:

Quoting joeljack (Reply 6):
It should be an overnight flight or at worst, first thing 6am flight that allows you to do business on a Weekday than return home first thing the next morning.

Every time the subject of daytime transcons comes up, someone says something like this... and yet the redeyes are always the poorest performing flights, usually by a very wide margin.

I think that's because if you take redeyes or 6 a.m. transcons and then go directly to work, then you show up looking like a body found in a dumpster. Most people who are not insane workaholics would rather a) get there a bit later or b) spend the extra night. The group of business travelers who won't sacrifice even one hour of business for sleep or sanity is smaller than you think, although Big Four accounting firms and BigLaw firms are good places to find them.

[Edited 2012-02-28 13:06:34]

User currently offlineAirCalSNA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 334 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13451 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 23):
Every time the subject of daytime transcons comes up, someone says something like this... and yet the redeyes are always the poorest performing flights, usually by a very wide margin.

I think that's because if you take redeyes or 6 a.m. transcons and then go directly to work, then you show up looking like a body found in a dumpster. Most people who are not insane workaholics would rather a) get there a bit later or b) spend the extra night. The group of business travelers who won't sacrifice even one hour of business for sleep or sanity is smaller than you think, although Big Four accounting firms and BigLaw firms are good places to find them.

Even a 6 a.m.transcon departure from SFO arrives too late for any meaningful work to be completed that day.


25 kgaiflyer : I believe this is a control-capacity thing. The fewer seats -- the more valuable each seat-- the more charged per seat -- the higher the yields.
26 kgaiflyer : I guess it depends on the profession. I do a 6am fly-out every 14 days, and I'm never alone on the plane. My observations are, though, that the CO 73
27 BobLoblaw : No, a redeye is not a good idea. Youre right the timings are poor. More like SFO 0800 DCA 1615 DCA 1730 SFO 2045 would be ideal for the local market.
28 CODC10 : Bingo. UA wants to protect yields on IAD-SFO too. If UA floods the DCA-SFO market with seats (not that they really could), they'd probably only be hu
29 steex : Again, UA does not need to make a case. The legacy carriers are simply transferring a slot of their choosing from an in-perimeter large hub destinati
30 BobLoblaw : Ok there is certainly truth to that point, but then UA should downguage an IAD flight to 738 or A320.
31 CODC10 : You're missing the point. They already HAVE the slots, it's just a matter of UA filing for where it plans to use its allocation. There's no competiti
32 BobLoblaw : ok, now I understand. But their timings and choice of aircraft are still poor.
33 September11 : I think this is really good for DCA and SFO
34 CODC10 : Again, both choices are deliberate. I think we can rest assured that their decision took into account all the variables, including possible connectio
35 kgaiflyer : Why?? UA flies out of IAD -- all day long and every day of the week -- with everything from 319s to 777s to SFO. Out of IAD they don't really need to
36 laca773 : This is a good choice to start. If they find a need to upgauge to a 738, they have the a/c to do so. On some days, I bet the 73G will work best and o
37 FlyPIJets : seems like to me that p.s. service from DCA to SFO would be very profitable for UA. especially if these flights are timed to the UA/SFO TRANSPAC. want
38 CODC10 : It will be more profitable with pax paying the same high prices (no competition) for a standard domestic product that is much cheaper to deliver than
39 FlyPIJets : ok, but, DCA - SFO timed to Asia should go pretty premium and a p.s. 757 has, what 38 premium seats vs. what 12-16 for a 73G, 319,320. There are othe
40 olddominion727 : What an awful aircraft to have on such a LONG route. I flew IAHSFO 3 nights ago, all seats full (as I presume this flight will be very popular too--be
41 washingtonian : I understand both sides of this argument, not sure how I come down though. I bet that United wants to be super careful at first to ensure that IAD-SF
42 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Just as well. I was on a mid-lav 739 a couple weeks ago EWR-SAN. The mid-lav was so tiny that I had trouble even turning sideways to close the door.
43 kgaiflyer : By the time this route is consummated, the 700 series 737s will no doubt have Y+ . I do feel your pain as I've done EWR-SNA in the 700 series. With Y
44 Post contains images FlyPIJets : I see both sides as well. And though I think a p.s. DCA-SFO is a no brainer.... 1. I don't actually run an airline 2. What are the special considerat
45 drerx7 : Which is why they notated they could use comparable narrowbody aircraft. My guess is 319/320/73G/738. I con't think the 753 can get out of DCA with a
46 gigneil : These times are perfect. They couldn't hgave done anything differently and I'm thrilled with the selection. NS
47 CODC10 : There are, via IAD. This isn't meant to be a high-volume route, but rather a one-off, niche service that drives a yield premium. There is no direct c
48 gigneil : Either Virgin, or US, or both will fly DCA-SFO. NS
49 washingtonian : You think AA/UA would put mainline 2-class aircraft on these routes if there wasn't as much competition? None of us know, but it would be very intere
50 flylku : If approved I'll take it outbound but return to IAD.
51 CODC10 : That's the point. AA is the competition. Since they offer a premium product, UA will too, and vice versa. If one went to a purely domestic configurat
52 solarflyer22 : Oh tragedy! The Deloitte consultants won't make their morning lattes on the west coast projects billing $200hr for PPTs. You have to factor in noise
53 HPRamper : Are the seat pitches and legroom that different across the domestic Y fleet? From my experience seat width differs a bit from plane to plane but pitc
54 laca773 : This is a flight of convenience for frequent, high paying folks who do a lot of business in DC. UA is not going to suffer with their IAD-SFO flights.
55 DualQual : I don't believe a 753 OR 739ER could operate the DCA-SFO leg without restrictions. I think the 738 or 752 is the tops you'll see.
56 ual777uk : I think this will be a great addition and I see the sense in the schedule. Ine flight is never going to make everyone happy, lets be honest. I for one
57 JasonCRH : It's approved. AA/UA/DL and US were all given a beyond perimeter exemption to use however they wish. this application wasnt really an application - it
58 drerx7 : I doubt this would ever be a P.S. route, as mentioned before, P.S. is for a competitive segment, there is no need to differentiate the product to DCA
59 kgaiflyer : The largest plane to ever land on DCA's 6860 ft main runway is a UA DC10-10 which came down short of fuel during a hail storm in the 90s. But in orde
60 Post contains images kgaiflyer : You're a smart guy, Neil. You know that VX doesn't even have a station at DCA. Okay, so what is it that you know that the rest of us don't know ?
61 TOMMY767 : the 737-700 is truly a horrible aircraft to fly transcon. I did it from EWR-LAX in 2005 and barely had enough room to open a laptop on my traytable.
62 kgaiflyer : But . . . 700s have the same number of restrooms as other planes, yes? Also, Y+ should be added to the 700 series by the time SFO service starts.
63 TOMMY767 : The 73G is shorter so the lines for the lavs back up into the isles. It's a pain in the rear with the F/A traffic and the carts going back and fourth
64 CODC10 : Dramatic much? Again, with E+, it will be a different story at the front of the plane. As for the dimensions of the seat, if the 73G is such a 'truly
65 FlyPIJets : competing for what? UA offers nothing at JFK, nothing. Why compete .... but for premium traffic. same DCA-SFO. Go for the whales. I guessing that had
66 TOMMY767 : But still if the plane is packed you can and will see the usual lav traffic back up into the isles. It happens on the 738 all the time so it's worse
67 CODC10 : The whales will take the flight because of convenience and time saving, and if they are really serious about a premium seat, they can take the existi
68 CODC10 : How could the 73G be worse? There are fewer pax and a better ratio of passengers to lavs. It's all relative. Only a dozen or so of the 738s have a mi
69 drerx7 : Yea, what he said, lol. In regards to CO 737s, my issue with them is really that the 319/320s have a more comfortable seat cushion. I generally agree
70 TOMMY767 : Knowing how UA plays games with schedule changes, I would not be surprised if the 73G is changed to a 738 or 757 before the service actually starts u
71 drerx7 : I absolutely agree, my guess it will be a mainstay 738/320 run that seasonally goes to a 757. Then again, I haven't flown on a 73G in a while, even t
72 solarflyer22 : Yeah, I think so too. 757 is perfect for this route and its a shame there isn't a true replacement for the aircraft which has been mentioned by mysel
73 drerx7 : Delta used the 763 into DCA for Obama's inauguration from ATL, I don't think it would be able to get up and out transcon though without payload restr
74 md3 : TZ's 757's only had to fuel up to make it to MDW though. The 767 can't be scheduled with any reliability out of DCA. That's why no one does. That bei
75 kgaiflyer : **All** the 737 mid-cabin lavs are being removed in the interest of adding Y+ to the planes .
76 kgaiflyer : Are you absolutely sure about that? I've only seen 738s at gates 6 and 7 (their gates in A concourse).
77 LHCVG : I'd imagine this it - that the 753 CAN make it out of DCA, but only for short to mid-con runs like ATL or ORD, perhaps IAH.
78 TOMMY767 : Yikes i don't even know about that. IAH would be stretching it on the 753 from DCA. I remember flying out of there in 2000 on a UA 727-200 and I feel
79 md3 : Yeah, he's right, at least with 752's. I don't think they were regularly scheduled but they weren't super rare either. I only witnessed one of their
80 CODC10 : Not exactly. Only the mid-cabin lavs on the 737-800s, which amount to about a dozen airplanes in the fleet of 130.
81 RDH3E : I'm not familiar enough with the specifics, but could Airlines have proposed flights to foreign airports with TSA Pre-Clear facilities? Pardon my ign
82 gigneil : Their primary airport is SFO. They have stated that National was their next pick if slots became available. They have. They will apply. The 737-700 i
83 DualQual : Plenty of 700s from IAH to DCA that could turn to SFO. I think one SFO frequency ex IAH is also a 700. Also in the near future there is likely to be
84 steex : I believe the DOT specified the slot conversions and four new slots were all for domestic services. If someone (namely B6) wanted to make a bold play
85 md3 : Canadian carriers are also eligible to apply.
86 washingtonian : If you view it as a competitive product issue alone, then you are right. But I've always thought of it more as an opportunity for revenue premiums ov
87 CODC10 : That's really what it is. JFK-LAX/SFO is a high-yielding market with a great deal of business traffic, but in order to capture that traffic, the comp
88 CODC10 : Perhaps I can be a bit more illustrative with this example: Scenario A: A person is willing to pay $3 for a widget, but the only type of widget that p
89 N62NA : Then why don't they do it at EWR?
90 gigneil : They are, basically. They're opping their current 752s with a premium service, which is about what you will get on a PS 752 after the refurb. Also, th
91 CODC10 : They can generate sustainable yields without it. Not nearly as competitive a market as JFK.
92 gigneil : Not to mention JFK being a primarily O/D market for United... what feed they DO have is from the South Pacific, and that'll be pretty high in yield as
93 kgaiflyer : Except in the DC area, few are completely blocked from one of the three airports by impossible traffic like in NYC. For example, I live exactly 29 mi
94 TOMMY767 : Actually JFK's fares to LAX are pretty dirt cheap from an economy prespective. There's a lot of competition in that market and you can get a pretty c
95 CODC10 : Advance purchase restricted economy fares are really meaningless in this market, the real money is to be made on the unrestricted business and first
96 drerx7 : The real question is whether the increase in CASM on a P.S. bird is alleviated enough to make a business case at DCA. At JFK it is because they need
97 CODC10 : So if it sells out currently, then what is the business case for a higher-cost product? If anything, it's a case for a lower-cost product to improve
98 gigneil : I am 100% sure ATA flew both types to DCA. NS
99 drerx7 : TZ definitely flew the 753 and 752 into DCA. Cosign...
100 FlyPIJets : A race to the bottom isn't required here. DCA-SFO is restricted nicely for UA. Now it could well turn out that DCA-SFO isn't really all that premium.
101 RDH3E : Revenue per Trip - Cost per trip - opportunity cost of passing up another optimal route = Which airplane they will use. They may have no 757 slack in
102 drerx7 : I think they probably due have some they could have slacked, IAH is getting UA 757s, in some cases multiple, to LAS/LGA/IAD/SAN/PDX/PHL and SEA. I thi
103 TOMMY767 : EWR gets the PMUA 757 to BOS/MCO/MIA/SAN/SEA/LAS/DEN/SFO/ORD as well. CLE gets it to TPA/LAX/MCO on and off of course. Perhaps they are tied up for t
104 BOACCunard : It is rare, but it does happen. Next weekend I am flying p.s. JFK-LAX-JFK for $320, and if I chose less desirable flight times it could have been $30
105 kgaiflyer : Or if they are tied up, perhaps the 20-132-configured 738 mentioned above which has five premium rows.
106 CODC10 : Does anyone on here think that, maybe, just maybe, UA considered each of its domestic aircraft capable of operating the route, generated some proforma
107 Post contains images washingtonian : HAHA I pretty much take everything I read on A.net and conclude that the opposite is probably true ...Especially a certain poster who writes about MI
108 BOACCunard : That won't last very long, they're being reconfigured to 16F. If a large number of F seats is required, the 752 is obviously the aircraft of choice.
109 seabosdca : Certainly they were acting on the basis of much more information than we have. But I think it's also possible that they are aware that the risk to IA
110 FlyPIJets : What I find amazing / disappointing is that even though UA has very large operations at both ends of Metro Washington - SFO/OAK metro route , they do
111 gigneil : Does nobody understand yield management? They want to keep demand high and supply low. Basic economics. Believe me, they don't sell 30 premium seats o
112 slcdeltarumd11 : Yes and not even on those. They have upgrades and miles redeemers they ain't selling 30 premium seats.
113 707lvr : I remember our family driving over to SFO to pick my grandmother up from this flight in 1956 (her first.) Wonder what happened to it.
114 drerx7 : You all that are jockying for p.s. On this route are missing the point entirely. UA kno Huh? Wrong thread perhaps?
115 kgaiflyer : Actually -- a 900ER or a 752 Monday to Friday, and a 700 or 800 Saturday and Sunday sounds very realistic.
116 TOMMY767 : Sounds like a Jeff Smisek bean counter move to me.
117 FlyPIJets : [ Yield management has its place in airline management just like barometric pressure has its place is meteorology. Yield management was developed so a
118 drerx7 : Thus making the stronger case for a non p.s. 757 bird. You can definitely make more money on a larger capacity 757 than a P.S. bird with a good mix o
119 Post contains images CODC10 : It's interesting to see how the tone of the thread has changed over the last few days... in the beginning, the narrative was: "What a horribly-timed f
120 Post contains images TOMMY767 : He is though.... DCA-SFO will end up being one of the most premium routes within the domestic United States. UA should offer an aircraft which can de
121 seabosdca : I can pretty much promise you a PMUA 757 would make more money. You need more F seats, not fewer but nicer F seats.
122 CODC10 : That's the point I have an issue with: how do people know it's not the optimal airplane for the route? There's a difference here: United's route plan
123 FlyPIJets : seems like a normal progression to me. went from a knee jerk reaction of "this won't work" to "They should be able to make lots of money" It takes ti
124 LHCVG : I have to admit that I've come around to see the light here. I was originally skpetical, coming from the view that a 757 was the obvious and optimal
125 mogandoCI : 1 flight won't make a *dent* in their IAD-SFO survivability. They can just right-size the aircraft size or schedule a bit, but nothing drastic. SFO-&
126 drerx7 : The more I look at this thread the more I believe the 73G is probably the best bird for the job. With DCA bookended by transcons all up and down the w
127 IADLHR : Over the years I have met a number of people who were flying UA SFO-ORD-DCA. They were staying in Crystal City and DCA, despite the ORD layover, was
128 CODC10 : To clarify, my position is not that there is insufficient demand in the market, but rather that it is hard to argue against the logic of putting a sma
129 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Well, there are 14 IAD-SFO nonstops (Virgin America X 4 and United X 10). As someone suggested earlier on -- if UA moved just one of those 10 frequen
130 BOACCunard : Presumably if they did, they wouldn't be reconfiguring p.s. with 26F seats. Jets and IAD. Didn't we establish that the 739ER won't work for this rout
131 kgaiflyer : What we establised was that the folks on Wacker drive planning this route know what they're doing. However, we -- the armchair CEOs -- will continue
132 BOACCunard : I didn't mean from a commercial standpoint, I meant from an operational standpoint, i.e., being able to take off from DCA with enough fuel to get to
133 RWA380 : If US takes a slot and uses it to SFO as well, and flies 5pm from DCA to SFO and either a red-eye late out of SFO 11pm for a 7am arrival or 7am to DCA
134 gigneil : A 739 would hit the ground. Hard. Right. Make money. That's his job. So its a captive market and they can do what they want. NS
135 kgaiflyer : I'm aware of the popular culture surrounding the 739. My point is that I've actually flown AS's 739As which used to do IAD-SEA. Yes -- I'm aware IAD-
136 DualQual : The 900ER could land at DCA. It likely could not take off from DCA and get to SFO without restriction. An 800 is the best you'll see unless a 752 is u
137 gigneil : IAD has runways that are twice the length of the runways at DCA. Its physics, not popular culture. NS
138 BOACCunard : We're not talking about the range of the airplane. We're talking about whether or not it can take off from DCA's runways with enough fuel to get to L
139 Post contains images kgaiflyer : I'm not a whiner (usually) but why is the 757 capable and the 739ER not capable? I promise once someone explains the difference (use small words, ple
140 gigneil : Because the larger 757 has a wing designed to lift much more than it needs to on a 2000 mile sector, and engines with significantly more headroom tha
141 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Now I get it (that wasn't hard was it ) Thanks Neil.
142 CO787EWR : The 757 is basically a Porsche/Lamborghini/Ferrari of the skies. It has a pretty high thrust to weight ratio for an airliner. So it outperforms the 7
143 Post contains images kgaiflyer : That explains dramatic 757 take-off photos like those at Eagle/Vail.
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