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WN/FL SOC-March 1st, 2012  
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Hey All---

For those keeping track, Southwest and Air Tran's SOC will become one March 1st, 2012. I posted a possible rumor about this awhile back but the archive had closed it.

Rumor: SOC For WN/FL To Occur March 2nd, 2012 (by atrude777 Jan 3 2012 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=5347702&searchid=5351138&s=WN%2FFL+SOC+March+2nd#ID5351138

Basically now, is today the last day of Air Tran/Citrus on the ATC Waves and Flight Aware?

The First 737-700 from Air Tran is in the paint shop right now getting converted (N126AT)

So to reiterate my questions...

Will an Air Tran painted bird have to say "operated by Southwest" somewhere on the plane until it is painted into WN Colors?

I am really hoping Code Share will be announced once SOC occurs, there is a rumor that is the next announcement to be made after SOC occurs. (NOT CONFIRMED)

Alex


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4297 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Thread starter):
Basically now, is today the last day of Air Tran/Citrus on the ATC Waves and Flight Aware?

I could be wrong, but I believe they are basically stapling FL's manuals and policies onto WN's certificate so it will almost be as if nothing has changed. FL will continue to operate as they are except they'll legally be on WN's certificate.

Quoting Atrude777 (Thread starter):
I am really hoping Code Share will be announced once SOC occurs, there is a rumor that is the next announcement to be made after SOC occurs. (NOT CONFIRMED)

The longer they wait, the more money they'll lose so hopefully the rumor is true.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 1):
I could be wrong, but I believe they are basically stapling FL's manuals and policies onto WN's certificate so it will almost be as if nothing has changed. FL will continue to operate as they are except they'll legally be on WN's certificate.

Interesting...if that's all they were doing..why not have it happen sooner?! Hahahaha

Quoting FL787 (Reply 1):

The longer they wait, the more money they'll lose so hopefully the rumor is true.

I'd love to make that claim...but WN knows what they are doing, so they must be sure of the numbers, the Pilot Agreement is not obstructing SOC, WN is free to start that anytime they want.

Really crossing my fingers for an Code-Share Announcement soon!!!

Alex

[Edited 2012-02-29 19:12:27]


Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4244 times:

Quoting FL787 (Reply 1):
but I believe they are basically stapling FL's manuals and policies onto WN's certificate so it will almost be as if nothing has changed. FL will continue to operate as they are except they'll legally be on WN's certificate.

Given that FL's certificate has Flag status, EOW and the 712s, why aren't they keeping the FL certificate? A desire to keep it in Dallas?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1047 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4237 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):

I think you mean codeshare in that last post.

I was also wondering if FL will be using the WN call sign starting tomorrow after the SOC is given?



My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
User currently onlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4133 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
Given that FL's certificate has Flag status, EOW and the 712s, why aren't they keeping the FL certificate? A desire to keep it in Dallas?

I guess I'm not really positive which certificate is really the surviving one. I just know that almost nothing changes.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):
I was also wondering if FL will be using the WN call sign starting tomorrow after the SOC is given?

I don't believe so. Still Citrus.

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
Interesting...if that's all they were doing..why not have it happen sooner?! Hahahaha

Good question haha. Lots of paper to push I suppose.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4084 times:

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 4):

I think you mean codeshare in that last post.

I did! Yes, sorry corrected!

Quoting FL787 (Reply 5):
I don't believe so. Still Citrus.

Oh Really? I thought that was the point of SOC? UA/CO's SOC Occurred Nov and the next day all ATC had to become United call sign?

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently onlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4034 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 6):
Oh Really? I thought that was the point of SOC? UA/CO's SOC Occurred Nov and the next day all ATC had to become United call sign?

In the UA/CO case though they actually aligned their operational procedures and policies. In WN/FL's case, there will still be two ways of operating. If that weren't the case, there'd be no reason to send the FL guys to training as planes move across the partition.

If it's not apparent already, this isn't going to be some huge milestone like UA/CO or DL/NW. There's a reason they're not really talking it up and just mentioning it as a side note.



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1749 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 4007 times:

Single SOC is suppose to happen March 1, unless it's quietly changed and slipped a day or two. Whenever it goes through, there will be some provisions including a SOC with more than one entity identified on the certificate under the following conditions:

1. the two entities are committed to a full corporate merger, and control of one entity
has already been assumed by the other entity, typically through a parentsubsidiary
relationship.

2. the combined entity has sufficiently coordinated and executed its merger plan
such that the FAA is satisfied that the combined entity can meet all requirements
of 14 C.F.R. part 119, as well as 14 C.F.R. parts 121 or 135, as applicable;

3. the combined entity can demonstrate that operational control is fully vested and
non-severable among the two entities, as demonstrated by a single set of
management personnel as required by 14 C.F.R. § 119.65; and,

4. the combined entity is reflected on the proper documents issued by the
Department of Transportation regarding economic authority.


When SOC happens, just one a single director of safety, director of operations, chief pilot,
director of maintenance, and chief inspector would be allowed.


User currently offlinetimf From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 970 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3569 times:
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"The Southwest Airlines Air Carrier Operating Certificate will be amended to read 'Southwest Airlines Co. and/or AirTran Airways Inc.'"

This should allow them to continue to operate with existing titles and callsigns without the need for an extra "Operated By" statement.

Source: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/faa-is...erating-certificate-130000906.html


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4303 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):

Given that FL's certificate has Flag status, EOW and the 712s, why aren't they keeping the FL certificate? A desire to keep it in Dallas?

Everything you mention is covered by an airlines ops specs....which is something that can easily be added to any airlines ops specs once the POI and the Chief Pilot agree. Keeping the FL certificate really gains them nothing as you are suggesting.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3286 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
which is something that can easily be added to any airlines ops specs once the POI and the Chief Pilot agree.

Why bother, though? It's just unnecessary paperwork.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinen7371f From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1749 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3237 times:

Essentially what's happening today is no different than what Delta and Northwest did for the first month after their SOC -- Northwest flights continued under the 'Northwest' call-sign and the 'NWA' designator until the cutover to a single reservations system, then Northwest went away.

Based on everything I've read and been told, the 'Citrus' and 'TRS' designators will be around for quite some time..


User currently offlineHmelawyer From United States of America, joined May 2011, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3148 times:

Quoting Atrude777 (Thread starter):
I am really hoping Code Share will be announced once SOC occurs, there is a rumor that is the next announcement to be made after SOC occurs.

It will happen eventually, but I am not holding out hope of anything happening soon. All reports have been that the technology/software just isn't there to do a code-share and each step has been delayed-including the selection of new software.

http://www.thebeat.travel/post/2011/...-SWA-AirTran-Codeshare-Timing.aspx

A more recent post/story indicates that Southwest will just slowly remove Air Tran flights and replace them with Southwest flights to achieve their integration goals until a codeshare solution is found.

http://crankyflier.com/2012/02/14/so...omer-friendly-airtran-merger-plan/


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23203 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting Hmelawyer (Reply 13):
All reports have been that the technology/software just isn't there to do a code-share

Both airlines have codeshared in the past, haven't they?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3078 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):

Both airlines have codeshared in the past, haven't they?

That was explained in the article...

While AirTran previously had what a Southwest spokeswoman in an e-mail called a "partnership" with SkyWest, "It was not a classic 'codeshare,' in the technical sense of the word," she added.

Meanwhile, though Southwest successfully implemented a codeshare scheme with the now-defunct ATA Airlines, Kelly on Thursday explained that "the technology that we used with ATA is not necessarily usable again with AirTran, but in any event, with our current reservations technology and theirs, that has to be built and that construction's underway."


Quoting Hmelawyer (Reply 13):

Thaks for posting that. I understand a lot more what is going on now. I guess for us as the customers and enthusiast, SOC is not the big deal today like it was for the other carriers and mergers. Which is good for the folks who enjoy Air Tran and the name sake.

I guess one has to remember, Southwest has never followed the other carriers in their ways of doing business. SWA is treating this completely different and taking their time in getting things transitioned over. It's frustrating for us as an airline enthusiast but makes perfect business sense.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently onlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2980 posts, RR: 30
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2229 times:

This seems a good place to bring up what appears to be early resutls of Southwest's strategy of gradual-transition of AirTran to Southwest metal without code sharing in place.

At AirTran's MKE hub, Southwest took over the bulk of flights to Las Vegas, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale from AirTran starting January 9. We don't yet know what the loads are in the individual markets because the January T100's won't be out until April. But the Milwaukee airport stats are out for January and things look remarkably weak. Here's how those look compared to last year.

We know that Southwest runs 137-seat planes into Milwaukee. So knowing the operation and passenger counts we can get an idea of average onboard loads for the operation.

Southwest January 2011 in MKE
65,016 passengers on 730 flights
89.1 pax per flight, approximate LF of 65.0%


Southwest January 2012 in MKE
75,213 passengers on 1,018 flights
73.9 pax per flight, approximate LF of 53.9%


Passengers increased nearly 16%, but capacity increased nearly 40%

Now January is a weak month for MKE traffic, of course. To get that 65% average onboard load at MKE last year, Southwest filled around 53% of seats on their non-sun markets (MCI and BWI) and about 81% of their seats to the sun markets they served (Florida, Vegas and Phoenix).

This year, Southwest does have a new non-sun market which was likely weak (STL) but they also added all those flights to Orlando, Vegas and Fort Lauderdale. Those routes usually run north of 80% even in January, and in fact last January AirTran Vegas and Orlando flights ran 85% full. Those very flights were moved over to Southwest starting January 9, and it seems likely they ran perhaps 20 points or more emptier.

For Southwest to only average about 54% full for their entire MKE system, they likely carried fairly tepid loads in the sun markets which usually run 80% or fuller, and rather weak loads elsewhere. Here's a sample scenario to show how weakly individual markets may have performed to come out to a 53.9% total onboard load factor in January at MKE.

62.0% ……. phx
60.0% ……. mco
60.0% ……. tpa
60.0% ……. las
55.0% ……. fll
53.0% ……. den
46.0% ……. bwi
46.0% ……. mci
42.0% ……. stl

Remember that's just an illustration on what sorts of loads come out to an average of 53.9%. But there's no way to come to an average as weak as 53.9% without serious weakness in the routes Southwest took over from AirTran. Last year AirTran ran around 85% full to LAS and MCO, and clearly Southwest flew far emptier on those flights they took over. And why would that be?

--Southwest does not code share with AirTran, and so there's very little connecting feed onto those Southwest flights.
--Southwest flights are not for sale on airtran.com. Customers used to flying AirTran who went to their website did not see anything encouraging them to look for those flights on southwest.com.
--Milwaukee cusomters are not groomed to seek out southwest. If they didn't go directly to sites like airtran.com, they went to Expedia, Kayak, Orbitz, etc. And if they didn't find the AirTran flights they were used to, they flew Delta, USAirways, etc.

Now January is a very weak month. And in MIlwaukee, those LAS and MCO flighs transitioned back over to AirTran in mid February. But I suspect they'll run into similar issues -- perhaps not as severe but still pronounced -- everywhere they gradually phase Southwest in and AirTran out until there's code sharing and FF reciprocity. Some of the frequencies Southwest is currently operating like ATL-MDW may be doing okay because of the hub connections available on the other end...even if they can't serve MDW-(ATL)-CLT, they can serve OMA-(MDW)-ATL. But that will be more dificult in markets like SDF-ATL and SFO-ATL if there are next to zero connecting options at Atlanta.


User currently onlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2461 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2098 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 16):
Southwest does not code share with AirTran, and so there's very little connecting feed onto those Southwest flights.

Even if they had a codeshare in place by now, it still might be a bit of hassle connecting from one airline to the other since they're both in separate concourses. If they haven't consolidated/initiated a codeshare by August (when more FL routes switch to WN), then it might be time to start raising some eyebrows.

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 16):
Milwaukee customers are not groomed to seek out southwest.

The one advantage is that WN started running television ads in the Milwaukee area several years before they even started serving the city. Not sure if this was intended to draw folks to MDW, but at least it made them less of an unknown.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineAtrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5700 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1681 times:

Now that SOC has occurred it appears the website www.lowfaresfarther.com will cease to exist by March 15th, 2012.

ALERT: Beginning March 15, news and information regarding the acquisition and gradual integration of AirTran Airways by Southwest Airlines will be available on Southwest Airlines websites. Once this site is dissolved, a redirect message will be temporarily posted here at LowFaresFarther.com to assist you in your search.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
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