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HK May Cancel Their A380s - Report  
User currently offlineCHRISBA777ER From UK - England, joined Mar 2001, 5964 posts, RR: 61
Posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 24624 times:

Reports on Bloomberg that Hong Kong / Hainan group might be cancelling their A380 order.

Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...gkong-airbus-idUSLNE82000X20120301

Political wrangling or something deeper?

Anyone got any ideas?


What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 696 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24369 times:

I always wondered "what the heck are they going to do with them?", so I can't say I am surprised. Same goes with Transaero, I somehow doubt they will be receiving them. And let's not forget Kingfisher. The A380 is too big for most operators. Of course there might be some political dogfight, but who knows the real reason but the top management at HK Airlines.

User currently offlineZKCIF From Lithuania, joined Oct 2010, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24279 times:

would it have been cheaper not to order at all?
Or they did a deal behind the politicians' backs and got a big fat NO?


User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6642 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24254 times:

There have been a first couple of inklings that all is not well at HKA. This is in stark contrast to the very optimistic press releases by management there including plans to buy into HACTL, the largest cargo facility here in HKG, plans to start their own catering services here and to build a Cathay City-style (Cathay's large HQ complex) HQ.

Will be interesting to see what happens but I have always maintained that they cannot continue at the pace they are going. Their owners have deep pockets but are not stupid. How much money can you keep throwing into a venture that has so far not made money and has far from any guarantees of it. Aviation is not a cheap game to play.


User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24143 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Political wrangling or something deeper?

Anyone got any ideas?

Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political. It’s not the first time China has played such games either; China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12895 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24050 times:
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IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

[Edited 2012-03-01 04:34:37]


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana! #44cHAMpion
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 24010 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political. It’s not the first time China has played such games either; China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.

Not to nitpick, but that's AirChina (CA, out of PEK) who ordered, not ChinaAirlines (CI, out of TPE)


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4978 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 23914 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):

IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

That would be my guess as well. Too bad that the EU decided to go it alone instead of trying to reach a compromise.  .

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

Normally a customer would not cancel in such a short time unless something severe would happen. Political pressure can be something severe I guess.  .


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 23866 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):

Going by how enthusiastically operators have received their A380’s then it has to be political

A380 is fantastic for SQ, EK etc, but it does not necessarily fit everyone. Having said that, HX/HU had plenty of time to assess the impact of A380 so hopefully when they finally signed they knew what they were doing.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
It’s not the first time China has played such games either

Actually it is a rarity if this threat is politically based. Chinese airlines sometimes get their orders signed during state visits, but they have not, as far as I know, cancelled or delayed ordering aircrafts based on political considerations on a regular basis. I recall CA placing a sizable order of A330 not long after the fiasco of Olympic torch relay personnel being assaulted in the UK and France in 2008. The anger then was 10 times what we have now over the EU tax.

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 4):
China Airlines ordered 10 748I’s a while ago which I believe to still be in a state of political limbo and have not been firmed up.

I think you are referring to Air China (CA) not China Airlines (CI), and the order was for 5 748i. I also disagree with the assertion that the delay is politically motivated. The leader-in-waiting of China just paid the US a highly publicised visit and there was not much out of the ordinary in the Sino-US relationship during the year since the MOU was signed.


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 23798 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

I'll go with this as the likely theory also.


User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1624 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23286 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Since Bloomberg is a financial paper, I would think that if the possible cancellation were due to finances, Bloomberg would have picked that up and reported it. Instead, the entire article deals with China's unhappiness over the ETS. So, I'd conclude this is all about the ETS.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 23143 times:

This was in the local SCMP today, pressure to cancel the A380 orders in relation fir the EU carbon tax.


We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineDaysleeper From UK - England, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 22950 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 6):
Not to nitpick, but that's AirChina (CA, out of PEK) who ordered, not ChinaAirlines (CI, out of TPE)
Quoting Cerecl (Reply 8):
I think you are referring to Air China (CA) not China Airlines (CI), and the order was for 5 748i. I also disagree with the assertion that the delay is politically motivated. The leader-in-waiting of China just paid the US a highly publicised visit and there was not much out of the ordinary in the Sino-US relationship during the year since the MOU was signed.

I was going on what I read in this thread, and also this article.

I'm not sure what will prove to be correct, but there was certainly very strong opinion at the time of political involvement.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31431 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 22816 times:
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So if this is political, I guess China thought it would be a stronger message to approve the order so that they could then threaten to cancel it, rather then just threaten to cancel an MoU?

Maybe they'll pull the trigger on their supposed 747-8 MoU and use that as an additional bargaining point?


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 22698 times:

If this is political, it's totally stupid.

Do they think that Airbus is a company administrated by the European Commision.   

And why is China Southern proudly accepting every new A380? The last one was delivered today.


So it's more about HK beeing in trouble.  



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31431 posts, RR: 85
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 22550 times:
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Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
And why is China Southern proudly accepting every new A380?

Well CZ's birds were completed and partially paid for, though the Chinese government could reimburse CZ for the expense of canceling the order. Also, even if China had done so, it's not like Airbus could not have found an immediate home for them with EK, so...

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
So it's more about HK beeing in trouble.

It does sound like a more logical reason.

They have not yet firmed their 747-8 MoU, which could have been used by China as a "slap" at the EU.

If I was HX and I thought I could only afford one of two VLAs I had on order, I'd certainly chose the A380 over the 747-8. So perhaps they quietly cancelled/delayed their 747-8 order, went ahead with the A380 order, and now feel that they shouldn't have ordered it, either.


User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 22390 times:

http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2006/september/tradoc_113366.pdf

As can be seen, China is exporting a lot more to the EU than vice versa. Not the rosiest position to be in, to launch a trade war.

I would assume Hong Kong airlines' A380 was a bit too ambitious, and the cancellation is now being used as a bargaining tool, regardless of its nature (financial woes).

I assume we'll hear a lot more noise from the Chinese and probably from the US as well, but we'll see no action from either side. You can currently book MAD-JFK-MAD on Iberia for €280. Try to find a round trip ticket from the US to Europe and you'll find fares 50-70% higher than those in the other direction. The same holds true for EU-China or China-EU travel.

That strongly suggests that people travel to Europe, because they want to travel to Europe and that Europeans travel to the USA and China because it's one out of many options, ie Californians will still visit Paris if the round trip costs $1500, whereas no European would be willing to spend that much money on an economy seat to Los Angeles.

In mere economical terms, the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US; in legal terms they're in their full right to do so; in political terms they're backed by a majority of the European population; and in ethical and ecological terms they're doing way too little, far too late.

Besides, they're really shooting themselves in the foot here. Hong Kong Airlines is not very well known as a brand. Once all majors fly into HKG (and PEK alike) on A380s, and CX exists in their own right, I would be curious to know what HX will do to win passengers over.

Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21586 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 21928 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Agreed, though it might be a way for them to do this while backing out of a deal they realized was too ambitious for the airline?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 18997 times:

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Political wrangling or something deeper?
Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.
Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
That would be my guess as well. Too bad that the EU decided to go it alone instead of trying to reach a compromise
Quoting clydenairways (Reply 9):

I'll go with this as the likely theory also.
Quoting zeke (Reply 11):
This was in the local SCMP today, pressure to cancel the A380 orders in relation fir the EU carbon tax.

As Zeke said, and it is in the Rruters link in the OP.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Thread starter):
Reuters - http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...20301
Quoting Stitch (Reply 13):
Maybe they'll pull the trigger on their supposed 747-8 MoU and use that as an additional bargaining point?

That could be, it could also be that they will use the (possible) A-380 order cancelation as a bargining chip for the B-747-8I.

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 14):
If this is political, it's totally stupid.

Do they think that Airbus is a company administrated by the European Commision.

No, but two of the heavy hitters in the EU/EC are Germany and France, and they do own part of EADS.


User currently offlinePanAm_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4217 posts, RR: 89
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17752 times:
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COMMUNITY MANAGER

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 19):
That could be, it could also be that they will use the (possible) A-380 order cancelation as a bargining chip for the B-747-8I.

More like they'll use the 787 as a bargaining chip for the reported 747-8i from HNA group, which is the parent, according to a report by Bloomberg.

Bloomberg



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1629 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 17665 times:

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
IMHO, it's just China applying additional pressure on the EU in respect of ETS.

Now, that doesn't mean the order couldn't be cancelled, but given how recently it was placed, I'd be surprised.

The EU will never change position on ETS.   

Therefore, the order will dissolve.   



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2748 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 17263 times:

Quoting something (Reply 16):
As can be seen,

Really? You really think that a hypocrisy (we'll buy your cheap products but we'll admonish you for the pollution they create), guesswork (the legality is in dispute) and a condescension (Europe is oh so "ethical") is a sound argument?

I particularly like this part...

Quoting something (Reply 16):
Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.

Though evidently you don't love the future THAT much (and by future we are talking about your own, self-interests here) because...

Quoting something (Reply 16):
and in ethical and ecological terms they're doing way too little, far too late.

To put it down to a single factor is unlikely. Yes the ETS factors into it (and why not? Why reward those who impose on your welfare?) but undoubtedly economics comes into this as well.

[Edited 2012-03-01 13:19:54]

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12181 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 15888 times:

Well, I see the EC more willing to give up a $3B-$4B sale of airplanes than giving into not collecting taxes from everyone on Earth. Yes, ETS is a tax, it will be spent on social programs and not on the enviornment.

User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 741 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15619 times:

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 12):

I was going on what I read in this thread, and also this article.

These are almost 6 years old! CI has since ordered 14+6 A359s and I believe they said replacing VLA was no longer on the short-term agenda. Also CI is based in Taiwan, even if there were a political order it has nothing to do with HX/HU which is based in Mainland China.

Quoting something (Reply 16):
the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US

  
Are we talking about the same EU whose currecy is lurching from one crisis to another on a weekly basis? The EU wants a trade war with a cashed up China like a hole in the head.

Quoting something (Reply 16):

Sorry Mr Jintao. We love you, but we love our future more.

His surname is Hu.
I understand aviation is a minor contributor to CO2 emission. I really doubt this tax is primarily aimed at saving the environment.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1385 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15684 times:

If its to fight back against the carbon tax I fully back them and hope more companies do these things. All these foney green taxes are getting ridiculous. Easiest way to rip a person off in 2012.

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 24):
Quoting something (Reply 16):
the EU is in a very cozy position to ignore the whinging of China and the US

Having a laugh right, EU is begging for Chinese investment and bailouts. Ludicrous hippy taxes that wont make a tiny bit of difference on a world scale is all this carbon crap is. Only thing it will do is damage the EU.. at a time where the EU is in that famous creek of **** without a paddle.

[Edited 2012-03-01 15:28:15]

25 Post contains links and images BEG2IAH : Yeah, too bad A380 doesn't support the typical level of pollution in China. Just keep it dirty as this poor B735 shows... View Large View MediumPhoto
26 francoflier : Not a fan of the ETS at all, but again, why all the fuss? No one is forcing them to fly those to Europe, and if they do, everybody else will have to p
27 clickhappy : Get real. China and US are the two largest export markets for EU goods (including airplanes). Nobody in Spain has any money. Have you seen some of th
28 gipsy : I bet China needs high tech manufacturing tools, pharmaceuticals and the like more than the EU needs cheap electronics and the like. We can build them
29 flyglobal : It will come down to: will EU give in on the rules, or not. The plane game is to lobby Airbus against the EU to support changing the rule. That may fa
30 sweair : Its sad that Airbus is still more a political adventure than a business venture, its my hope its sold and privatized, all governmental ties cut. And i
31 Post contains images Rara : Well, let's just say if France and Germany wanted ETS done away with, it'd be history. So it does make some (limited) sense to target Airbus. Anyway,
32 CX Flyboy : Its protecting their own economy and businesses. Unfortunately many countries do it with extra taxes on imported cars, planes, meat etc etc... China h
33 gipsy : That's not the point. China demands nobody messing around in their inner politics. So we are all told that the chinese way is the way of mutual respec
34 Rara : No, that's something else altogether. Protecting their own economy is every country's prerogative. Economists currently believe that it's harmful in
35 mham001 : Define "regular". They do have a habit of doing exactly this, recall a small order for 150 737s which was delayed until they got over their anger for
36 sweair : I regret my vote for the EU membership, seeing how EU turns more and more into a Soviet styled empire, with a political elite out of touch with realit
37 dfambro : All this talk about whether the EU needs China more than vice-versa implies that this will balloon into a full scale trade war. That's highly doubtful
38 lewis : What? Source? Really, you gave me a good laugh this morning, thank you!
39 Post contains links Cerecl : A habit? Any examples except the SPECULATED HX delay of A380s? Again, Chinese airlines sometimes horde orders for special occasions like state visits
40 huaiwei : Says alot on just how little you know of cultures outside of your European sphere. I would read your posts with a pinch of salt. The key difference,
41 KC135TopBoom : Great post, but you may not be able to get there if you wanted to fly there aboard a HK A-380.
42 Post contains images gipsy : I'm not defending the aviation tax per se, don't even know if it's worth anything. I wouldn't tax aviation anyway but I'm biased . It's just that Chi
43 KC135TopBoom : Yes, China alone isn't being penalised, the entire world is. That brings up the lagitiment question of what right does the EC, or any country or grou
44 Post contains links gipsy : Where does the arrival and departure tax in the US go to? Or the agricultural inspection fee? I shall not bring an apple with me into the US how very
45 HKG212 : It's really quite a simple story. HX overreached -- latest example is their absurd attempt to start business class-only A330 flights on HKG-LGW, one
46 lewis : Oh I thought the whole of Spain was turning to weed cultivation to diversify their industries... nevermind.
47 Flighty : A country has every right to tax whatever happens within its airports or its airspace. But outside of that... not really.
48 Asiaflyer : Not really among scientist anymore, but lobby organizations tries to keep that debate alive, with less and less luck though. You totally misses the p
49 Post contains links Focker : Funny enough the latest addition in MSN's is assigned to HK. MSN 180 to be HK's first A380. Source: http://www.ch-aviation.ch/aircraft.php
50 KC135TopBoom : That is part of the rediculas-ness of all of this. CO2 is a naturally forming gas, when we humans (and all other mammels) exhale, it is CO2 gas. When
51 Post contains links AustrianZRH : Exactly. But the burning of fossil fuels releases carbon dioxide to the atmosphere which was isolated from the biosphere for millions of years. Will
52 USAF336TFS : Oh boy... I should have known this was going to start the Man-made Global Warming debate again... And just think that many of these same people though
53 sweair : IPCC is a religion here in EU, too bad we all get lashed even if only a few environmental nuts want to fight the world.
54 SeJoWa : Numbers. More!
55 Post contains links clydenairways : Well this pretty much confirms that Airbus is being subjected to retaliation measures because of ETS. China blocks Airbus deals over EU carbon tax, sa
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