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Richard Branson Needs To Calm Down.  
User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2161 times:

In the uK following the annoucement from BA and AA that they want to increase co-operation with regard to heathrow to new york richard branson is planning a massive advertising campaign to fight this development.

Personally i think he needs to calm down.

BA/AA sharing profits will not be the end of virgin altantic.Virgin are well respected in the uk for their flights and i dont see them massively losing ground to BA/AA.

BA will need to give some slots to Virgin and i think this is would be fair move by BA and one although not publicily said will probably be forced by the eU whether BA likes it or not.

what branson has to realise is that consoldation in the aviation industry is still going to continue.
BA/AA can never fully merge, however increasing co-operation is a way to get round of this.

But virgin cant complain too much when they are 49% owned by Singapore airlines, which happens to own around 40% of sri lankan and 25% of air new zealand with SQ wanting to increase its stake as well as buy a stake in air india.

Branson at the moment doesnt own virgin,he morgaged his stake to llyodstsb, a british bank to raise fund for other ventures.

What i think will occur is ba giving up landing slots to virgin or to SQ who is desperate to fly london to new york, though at the moment it could do through the 3rd party laning rights system which allows air india to fly from heathrow to new york.

Bmi(british midland) dont seem to be screaming too mvcuh, this is probably because they are now in the worlds largest alliance and happen to be 25% owned by Lufthansa.

Easyjet and ryanair are beating BA over low fares and this doesnt affect them.in fact i seeonly branson kicking up a storm.

yet is BA/AA deal went through then it would pave the way for more link ups which can only benefit virgin because it could have closer ties with CO and with SQ.

northwest and klm already have a closer relationship than BA/AA and i think the EU after much wrangling will allow it to occur due to politics.The last time BA and AA tried it i believe the airline world wasnt ready but in an age of co-operation i think this is the next step.Also BA was still seen as thatchers airline, something which has drifted away.

The british government will support the plan because it will bosst british tourism which needs help.The british government is much more friendly in europe than before.

BA last time has the dirty tricks fight with virgin still hanging over them, however whilst i dont think BA were angels and i dotn really want this to turn into a BAvs Virgin contest, i feel that the fuss has died down.

its very difficuly for some airlines to merger because of national indentity fears therefore the BA/AA plan can be the blueprint for a new aviation industry.

Branson needs to welcome change and provigdng the deal isnt as cosy as the last(which at the moment it doesnt seem to be) then i think it will pass.

Therefore i would recommend that branson keeps his 6million to invest in some of his failing businesses rather than fight a proposal which could see virgin increase its power through close co-operation with sq and cO.

this time virgins part of a bigger family,its no longer a pluckly david against goliath.

krgds to you all and comments welcomed altough please lte this be an informed discussion and not a BA and Virgin slanging match.
too much time people swoop down and attack British airways.
ps i actually do like virgin!


It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
48 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Singapore airlines, which happens to own around 40% of sri lankan and 25% of air new zealand with SQ wanting to increase its stake as well as buy a stake in air india.

EMIRATES owns 40% of SriLankan and not Singapore Airlines.

The Singapore Airlines bid for Air India is all but dead at this point.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Singapore Airlines and TATA have no comment to make so far about the AI deal, therefore it is not "all but dead at this point".

Anyway, I support Richard Branson, after all, competition is needed and the UK Government (Labour, the best (except in their Air Transport rules)), can't smile much as it has rejected SIA for 13 years to fly from the LHR to the US and bmi for a long time as well.

I look forward to the adverts. Does it have a website? I am throughly interested.




Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7329 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1817 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Isn't it about 9 routes and not just the one. I note that the BHX-ORD, MAN-ORD, MAN-JFK and GLA-ORD routes weren't included in the profit-sharing plan. I wonder why?

Heathrow slots won't be handed out to Virgin or Singapore Airlines; BA and AA will be asked to divest themselves of some and then there will be a queue of airlines wanting to get hands on them, bmi british midland included. It would be interesting to see which BA routes would be affected by this handover.

I would back Richard Branson in his action as the "sheep" alliance (BAAA  Wink/being sarcastic ) would have the lion's share of the LHR-USA market; for Virgin (and bmi) to impact on these routes would take a fair amount of time unless they can find suitable equipment in a short space of time (i.e. perhaps the available MAS 747-400s) to inaugurate new services and increase frequency on others.

The only way for Singapore Airlines to get 5th freedom flights from LHR to the US would be if the Bermuda II treaty is replaced by an "open skies" policy. However, time is short for a British-American deal; I believe that from January, the EU will be negotiating "open skies" agreements instead of the individual countries in the EU. However, I have heard rumours of MAN-USA services by Singapore Airlines next year...no doubt BA will cry foul about that.

Spurious argument about easyJet and Ryanair as they fly from LTN (and to a lesser degree LGW) and STN respectively with them collectively offering no long-haul flights; it is the lack of competition on long-haul flights which is the main thrust of Richard Branson's arguments.

David/MAN 351 and counting


User currently offlineCRJCA From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

Didn't Branson just put in a bid for USAirways? I know about Global, but I believe Branson has made a bid as well. How would THAT change things?

User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1737 times:

THAT wouldn't change thing smuch as it is a rumour. However it would be v. v. v. interesting.

Good for the EU to decide I say. Good old Europe. Overriding the Labour Gov policies on Air Transport. Hoorah for them. Hoorah for SIA! Hoorah for bmi British Midland! Hoorah for me.

However, i'm still looking for an ad...



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1711 times:

I think there is a point here, because the UK market especially lhr is very different to the rest of Europe, where similar alliances exist.

Even if lhr were opened to any UK or US Airline wanting to fly between the two countries, it would still leave BA/AA with a massive advantage, as the two main established carriers. OK, so BA could transfer a few slots over, which could end up in the hands of NW etal (even if terminal access could be solved), fine. However, when it comes to expansion BA has slots to play with, because of the mass of European Ops it flies at great loss, meaning it's pretty unlikely BA/AA would loose any trans atlantic frequency, in other words there would be no balancing affect.

It might be claimed the fact more US CArriers into lhr would be more competitive, but how many of these will simply be flights transfered from Gatwick? Will the people of Detroit rush en mass to nwa.com and book tickets to London just because they can experience flying nw to lhr? No! So, without some huge increase in demand will the airlines lay on loads of extra flights? No! They'llstick to existing frequencies, but move them to lhr.

When you look at flights to Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Zurich (not so much the case now) where alliances have operated, the number of airlines (ie. competition) flying between the US and those countries has reduced as companies have had to withdraw unable to compete against the big alliances.

I accept Branson is a drama queen. I'm undecided as to should the deal go through, but things aren't as clear cut as is sometimes made out by interested parties.

I'm interested by the code share aspect, with very different products on offer (for example there sure ain't more room on BA Coach, or flat beds in AA Business, or World Traveller Plus at all), any ideas how that would work. I wouldn't be happy if I'd bought more room in coach and ended up with Ba's 31inch pitch on a 744? The reason I ask is both AA and BA have placed a lot of emphisis recently on how their particular products are different to everybody elses, especially for BA surely that's a major problem?


User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1703 times:

I think there is a point here, because the UK market especially lhr is very different to the rest of Europe, where similar alliances exist.

Even if lhr were opened to any UK or US Airline wanting to fly between the two countries, it would still leave BA/AA with a massive advantage, as the two main established carriers. OK, so BA could transfer a few slots over, which could end up in the hands of NW etal (even if terminal access could be solved), fine. However, when it comes to expansion BA has slots to play with, because of the mass of European Ops it flies at great loss, meaning it's pretty unlikely BA/AA would loose any trans atlantic frequency, in other words there would be no balancing affect.

It might be claimed the fact more US CArriers into lhr would be more competitive, but how many of these will simply be flights transfered from Gatwick? Will the people of Detroit rush en mass to nwa.com and book tickets to London just because they can experience flying nw to lhr? No! So, without some huge increase in demand will the airlines lay on loads of extra flights? No! They'llstick to existing frequencies, but move them to lhr.

When you look at flights to Frankfurt, Amsterdam and Zurich (not so much the case now) where alliances have operated, the number of airlines (ie. competition) flying between the US and those countries has reduced as companies have had to withdraw unable to compete against the big alliances.

I accept Branson is a drama queen. I'm undecided as to should the deal go through, but things aren't as clear cut as is sometimes made out by interested parties.

I'm interested by the code share aspect, with very different products on offer (for example there sure ain't more room on BA Coach, or flat beds in AA Business, or World Traveller Plus at all), any ideas how that would work. I wouldn't be happy if I'd bought more room in coach and ended up with Ba's 31inch pitch on a 744? The reason I ask is both AA and BA have placed a lot of emphisis recently on how their particular products are different to everybody elses, especially for BA surely that's a major problem?


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

Singapore Airlines and TATA have no comment to make so far about the AI deal, therefore it is not "all but dead at this point".

You don't say? I'll pass that on to the AI management and see what they think about it. They are working on that assumption, but I'll tell them that you know better.


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Thought you were familiar in the chat room. No wonder I had bad tones from you.

You do pass it on for me will you. Could you give me an e-mail address please. How you gonna do it? Please do tell, I am highly intrigued.

Well goodnight.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineCo/ba From United States of America, joined May 2001, 399 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

I don't know all of the dynamics of this proposed alliance however, the last time this was attempted there was talk of AA working BA flts in the U.S. and BA handling AA flts in the U.K. Is this still in the plan? Would this result in loss of BA jobs in the U.S.? If this would result in a loss of BA jobs in the U.S. I would have to oppose this alliance no matter how much I would love to see CO at LHR which still does not guarentee competitive slots into LHR at the moment

User currently offlineAdam84 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

The webpage about this is at
http://www.american-britishairways.com



User currently offlineV Jet From Australia, joined May 1999, 719 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1648 times:

Ryanair,
Codeshare should not present a problem. At the time of booking either the airline itself, or tvl agent if you are using one should inform you that the flt is a codeshare and say for eg this is operated by a BA aircraft. It is up to you whether you then take it or not. The codeshare flts are flagged as such in res systems.


User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1062 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1623 times:

Richard Branson should not calm down nor should any aviation fan when competition is at stake.
Had Sir Richard calmed down in 92 when BA played dirty tricks, or at any other anti-competitive event Virgin Atlantic would have probably been nonexistent by now. Think of Virgin Atlantic and the way it had transformed airtravel. I can't imagine what airtravel would have been like without Virgin Atlantic. And that is why Richard Branson should not calm down - we all benefit from competition and that is why we should not allow anticompetitive deals to occur. BA is losing money because it has backwards thinking, and is looking for some artificial way to stay profitable. No BA/AA deal for them. Unless they reinvent themselves and be competitive, no pity for them.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1609 times:

You do pass it on for me will you. Could you give me an e-mail address please. How you gonna do it? Please do tell, I am highly intrigued.

You can send your email directly to me, and I will have it forwarded to them. In case you didn't know, my dad is Senior Manager - Inflight Services Department at Air India. Thanks.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

The only way Richard Branson could get involved in a bid for U.S. Airways would be in a diminished role, since foreign ownership in U.S. airlines is limited to 25%, and I don' think Richard would want to be pushed to the back of a bid for U.S. Airways. I admire Branson (read several bios and the book on the Virgin business model) and see him as a crusader for the common man. I rank him up there with Herb Kelleher as an icon of the airline industry, mavericks that wouldn't let the big boys push them around.

User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1582 times:

B747-438B: Could I have the e-mail address please? I promise not to send more than one e-mail a month.

Well VS11, I agree. I didn't think of the Dirty Tricks.! That coming from a person who's read the book "Dirty Tricks" twice!

I support this. Does he still have the "No Way BA/AA" on the planes?



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineRyanair From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 654 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1562 times:

VJet: I know all that, but unfortunately most UK Travel Agents don't seem to, unless it's a package holiday to Spain 90% don't have a clue (I seriously doubt many even know what codeshare means, I mean that quite seriously), you're right they 'should' inform you. Believe me I speak as the voice of experience on that score, half of all the times I've flown Codeshare I was told nothing.

My point is, both companies have staked their future strategy for well being on their differentiated products (it's the root of BA's entire strategy) and diluting that on key markets (especially BA) puts all that under question, it sounds petty, which usually it would be, but AA/BA have built up their inflight products importance so high in terms of their business strategy, here I think it's important.

They say they're going to make their livings the following way. BA wants to capture the small but big spending top end high yield crowd, which it won't do with AA's product. AA wants to capture numerious but less big spending full fare economy market, which it can't with World Traveller. To me, that is a problem.


User currently offlineGlenn From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1552 times:

This the same Richard Branson who when moving into Australian Skies sent any and every company with Virgin in hteir name a cease to exist trading under that name or they would sue the pants off them ???



User currently offlineVgnAtl747 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1502 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1549 times:

I support Branson. He's got the guts to go after this, let him.

Go Canada!- C'mon, what is it with you and anti-Virgin posts. You said yourself your aunt works for them.



Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
User currently offlineDeskdriver From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 45 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Virgin are more concerned about the Bermuda II agreement being cancelled. This agreement means that only 2 US carriers & 2 UK carriers can operate between the 2 countries from Heathrow. The airlines involved UA, AA, BA & VS. If BA & AA make a success of their tie up Open skies will not be far behind

User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5078 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

I really think that Branson should calm down.

I support BA/AA propose alliance , as it would help them better compete with rivals like Star.



Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Richard Branson, crusader for a common man? When was that? In some of his balloon adventures? Far cry from it. He is only good marketeer, showman, and "in crowd" man for celebrities. Crusade for common folks is just a nice wrap for the '90s humanists. Check list of Branson's pals, his books are full of their glossy photos in upper decks.

If we can talk about crusaders for common people among airline execs, I'd point to Southwest founder. But should airline execs be crusaders or smart busnessmen/women? Now, I'd point to Continental CEO.


User currently offlineGo Canada! From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 2955 posts, RR: 11
Reply 23, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1481 times:

Singapore can fly heathrow to new york under current agreements, if air india can do it then so can sQ.

Mancester flights arent mentioned because this isnt a full scale merger.

Im sorry about the sri lankan, im so used to SIA owning others that it slipped my minds.

ps im not that anti-branson, im just saying he needs to clam down.

he was justified in the early 90s but now virgin is a big boy and if it cant take the heat it should get out of the kitchen.The worlds moved on from dirty tricks and I dont think Branson is going to whip up support this time.

the uK government is desperate to increase tourism, terminal 5 will go ahead and the bA/AA deal will be oked because virgin isnt a small player any more, its backed by SIA and bmi is 25% owned by lufthansa.
Virgin also has a codeshare partner, cO and KLM/Northwest are very close.

BA/AA have been waiting to ponce and now in the pole position in the consoladation of the aviation industry.BA let bmi expand without fuss, didnt kick up a storm over virgin being owned 49% by SIA.

The British are behind BA once more, the thachter tag is dying and dirty trciks being forgottern.

Virgin wont complain to much if BA help with the fuss over open skies.I dont think virgin want the competition either, although all that would happen is more Heathrow flights and no more gatwick.

Delta etc wont substain both.Open skies is going to be difficult when the government is under pressure not to raise the overall number of flights to heathrow by too much.

they will sideline open skies in order to get terminal five passed.

BA/AA are acting now before the EU gets extra powers and I dont think Branson realises he is no longer the darling he once was.He would have got more support if he didnt sell out to SIA and then morgaged the rest.

BA are well prepared to through the sink at branson.easyjet and ryanair wont get involved, bmi will get canned over lufthansa. AF wont be taken any notice of and will get their delta closeness thrown up them and klm wont start because bA still wants a stake and its got the closest friendship of them all.

any star alliance carrier wont be in a position to complainwhen their alliance is closer than oneworld.

in fact BA are very clever over this and will get what they want, especially if branson keeps expanding throughout the world, tries to merge virgin blue with ansett, takes on AC and tries to buy a stake in a US carrier.

if branson attempts a closer relationship with any other carrier BA will point to it.

I dont see BA doing dirty tricks, just getting what they
want.

and before we start on BA finances prehaps you should look at bransons.




It is amazing what can be accomplised when nobody takes the credit
User currently offlineRIX From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1785 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (12 years 8 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1477 times:

Probably those "No way BA/AA" on his aircraft were too small... Now let him replace the whole airline name to this paranoid logo - then he'll be able to make it so huge! Big grin

25 David_itl : Singapore can fly heathrow to new york under current agreements, if air india can do it then so can sQ They've tried for years to fly LHR-JFK; why on
26 B747-437B : if air india can do it then so can sQ You are obviously extremely clueless about the realities of the airline business. AI was the first Asian carrier
27 Co/ba : First off I don't think the alliance will get approval. The first reason being concerns over competition. Everyone is going to complain about slots.
28 Go Canada! : Unions arent powerful in the UK, ba will run roughshod over them, like it has always done. Its an alliance and profit sharing on the new york-london r
29 Singapore_Air : "whats stopping SIA flying from gatwick" Why do you think! Gatwick! No thank you. LHR. Yes please. The reasons are obvious.
30 B747-437B : whats stopping SIA flying from gatwick, its only closed skies at heathrow. Are you really this clueless or are you giving us your best Desmond Yip imp
31 David_itl : Its an alliance and profit sharing on the new york-london routes, not a full scale merger As I mentioned previosuly, it's not just a single route. Fro
32 Go Canada! : The overall BAA plans for heathrow say that they dont envisage growth at heathrow growing by a massive increase.In order to get terminal five, baa are
33 B747-437B : i repeat singapore can fly from gatwick if it wanted but its desperate for heathrow, ive read Bermuda II.We only have closed skies over heathrow . For
34 Sdate747 : Does anybody recall all the dirty tricks BA pulled to stifle the growth of VA into the 1st rate world class airlines it is today? I think Richard Bran
35 Jetstreamer : Sir Richard is a very calm person and if you had ever met him you would know that. All he is doing is protecting his business. BA/AA are trying to do
36 V1-Rotate : Branson does indeed need to calm it.Basically,HE hates competition.Furious over Air Canadas attempt to play him at his own game(anti-VS ads all over L
37 VS11 : Something that many people have overlooked is that Richard Branson is trying to leverage access to LHR in order to get the US let foreign (British) ca
38 Go Canada! : I havent said that we shouldnt have a virgin atlantic, i have respect for virgin, in fact read my comments, i havent critised the airline. i dont have
39 Go Canada! : I have notice that dear richard hasnt been complaining about competition in austrialia and new zealand and i notice he hasnt complained about singapor
40 VS11 : First, I have no recollection of attacking personally anyone in the forum. If someone feels personally attacked, I appologize - It has not been my int
41 Ryanair : Branson has been complaining abuot competition in Australia, quite a lot actually. He won't have much to say about New Zealand, he doesn't fly there.
42 GDB : Actually BA, or BOAC as it was then, DID pay for it's Concorde's. Well the 5 they originally ordered anyway. The cost per aircraft escapes me, but it
43 Go Canada! : from bbc news online(12.8.2001) BA and AA seek US approval American Airlines and British Airways have formally sought US antitrust immunity for a new
44 VS11 : First, BOAC was a government company then, and was made to buy the Concorde because BOAC did not want to buy them!!! And that is a fact. The British G
45 GDB : State-owned BOAC might have been, but they did want the aircraft, maybe not the number first proposed in the 1960's (8). And they DID have to pay for
46 VS11 : GDB - I cannot say how often Branson flies BA Concordes. But if he chooses to fly BA's Concordes rather than AF's that might be because he is located
47 GDB : Well Branson was always banging on about how he was going to lease an AF Concorde, it was always BS for press consumption, AF would have fleeced him c
48 Post contains images Nycank : For anything substantial to shake out, US-UK have to thrash out a post Bermuda II agreement. Do a search on the parliamentary debates to get the UK pe
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