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Mainland Carriers Doing Hawaii Inter Island Tags  
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

I know back in the day, 70's-80's, Many carriers served both HNL & ITO, not sure why, but ITO was on NW, CO, WA, UA's route maps, often times a one-way or r/t tag from HNL with DC-10's, 747's etc... Then into the 80's - 90's DL, AA, UA, NW operated inter-islands flights, when we lived in HNL it was way cheaper to fly DL, AA or UA to OGG than HA, AQ, Mahalo. Airlines have stopped doing this, as they are all now sending 737's to each of the 4 major Islands from every bigger city on the west coast. What I'm wondering if when G4 and WN start flying to HI, does anyone think they may offer some inter-island tags to cover more than one Island with a single plane? I think G4 would trying to fill a 757 vs WN's 738's with their larger domestic network. I could see WN offering some Inter Island flights, What do ya'll think?


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24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 912 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3351 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
not sure why, but ITO was on NW, CO, WA, UA's route maps,

I only learned it from a topic a few months ago, but KOA, LIH, and OGG did not have a long enough runway at the time for flights from the mainland, which made ITO the best airport on the Big Island for direct flights.


User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2026 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3309 times:

ITO was intentionally chosen in 1965 to be developed as the state's second overseas gateway. At the time, Hilo was the state's second-largest city (still might be, as a matter of fact, but I'm not sure) and there was ample room to expand. The runway was extended to 8800 feet and flights by United and Pan Am began in 1967. Two years later they were joined by Northwest, Continental and Western. Braniff was granted rights to serve Hilo but never started flights, although they did have a ticket office in the old ITO terminal before it closed. At the same time, construction began on the present-day terminal, which finished in 1976, right as traffic began to decline. By the early 1980s only United was still serving Hilo, and it pulled out in 1986 in favor of Kona.

"Tag" flights by mainland carriers began in the early 1980s, along with direct flights. United was the pioneer in this regard - they were even operating some charters from OGG to the mainland back in the 1970s. Scheduled flights began in (I believe) 1983, using DC8s from OGG to HNL, LAX and SFO. Western and American followed in 1985, with DC10s on tag services to Honolulu. Kona flights started around the same time, although for most of the 1980s and early/mid 1990s only United served KOA. Kona extended its runway in 1992 to the present 11,000 feet, making nonstop flights to anywhere on the mainland possible. OGG and LIH are still bickering with locals about their runway extensions, although 757s and 767s have made longer-range flights possible.

I remember flying DFW-HNL-OGG many times as a kid on American. The DFW-HNL flight arrived several hours before the HNL-OGG flight left and my sister and I would play in the garden area at HNL until it was time to catch the plane. On arrival at OGG's old terminal, we would deplane via extra-long airstairs, passing right by the (still turning) turbines on the #1 engine. That was something pretty special for a six-year-old!


User currently onlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1645 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
Airlines have stopped doing this, as they are all now sending 737's to each of the 4 major Islands from every bigger city on the west coast. What I'm wondering if when G4 and WN start flying to HI, does anyone think they may offer some inter-island tags to cover more than one Island with a single plane?
UA did it last summer. The flight went ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD. This way they are able to supplement OGG-ORD traffic on off-days. I'm not entirely sure on all the details of this flight, but I did it over memorial day 2011 as OGG-ORD.

However, this flight is not loaded into the system yet for this summer so who knows if it's coming back.

[Edited 2012-03-07 07:11:18]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25106 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

Before deregulation, if memory correct the major carriers that sometimes served both HNL and ITO on the same flight did not have local traffic rights on the inter-island sectors.

User currently offlineha763 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 3654 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2833 times:
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Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 2):
ITO was intentionally chosen in 1965 to be developed as the state's second overseas gateway.

It meant that U.S. carriers that wanted route authorities to Hawaii were awarded routes to ITO as a condition of getting HNL routes.

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 3):
UA did it last summer. The flight went ORD-OGG-KOA-ORD. This way they are able to supplement OGG-ORD traffic on off-days.

This was done because the runway at OGG cannot handle a 777 loaded to fly OGG-ORD non-stop.


User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12241 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2746 times:
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I flew SEA-OGG-KOA-SEA as recently as 2008 on NW.. It was on a 753.


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User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2696 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
I flew SEA-OGG-KOA-SEA as recently as 2008 on NW.. It was on a 753

I know they operated a 753 SEA-HNL-OGG-SEA as well, not sure the time frame.

Does anyone think G4 or WN will do any inter-island tags when they first start, or maybe down the line. WN could operate a few 737s inter-island everyday, just to keep it honest over there. 



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User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3046 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 2):
Braniff was granted rights to serve Hilo but never started flights,

Are you sure about that? I've seen old timetables that showed Braniff service into ITO. Someone else posted that it wsa with 707s, not their DC-8s. It was DAL-ITO.

Pan Am only served ITO for a very short time. They were out by around 1969.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 6):
I flew SEA-OGG-KOA-SEA as recently as 2008 on NW.. It was on a 753.

Same reason that someone posted for the UA ORD flight. A fully loaded 753 couldn't do OGG-SEA non-stop with OGG's moderate length runway.

Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 2):
On arrival at OGG's old terminal, we would deplane via extra-long airstairs, passing right by the (still turning) turbines on the #1 engine. That was something pretty special for a six-year-old!

That was from the wind. The turbines long ago stopped turning due to the engine running, or they wouldn't have deplaned.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25106 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2408 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
Quoting jsnww81 (Reply 2):
Braniff was granted rights to serve Hilo but never started flights,

Are you sure about that? I've seen old timetables that showed Braniff service into ITO. Someone else posted that it wsa with 707s, not their DC-8s. It was DAL-ITO.

Scroll down in the link below for an excerpt from Braniff's March 5, 1969 timetable for what was supposed to be their inaugural schedule to HNL and ITO effective April 14, 1969, all shown as operating with 707-320C (code B3F).
http://timetableimages.com/ttimages/bn6903.htm

It shows 3 x week to ITO. One from DAL (originating MSY), one from HOU (originating MIA), and one from STL (originating ATL). All continued to HNL, but no local traffic rights ITO-HNL. I'm assuming the original service from Houston must have been from HOU since IAH didn't open until June 1969.

I believe the original route awards for Braniff (and several other carries) were approved by President Johnson but when Nixon replaced Johnson in January 1969 he rescinded all the route awards in the "Pacific route case" in order to review them again, so that likely delayed the planned April 14, 1969 service by Braniff. Nolt sure what changed when Nixon finally approved the amended route awards but the July 1969 news item below does refer to Braniff obtaining rights "from Southern cities".
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...ff%20to%20hawaii&pg=6746%2C4530013

[Edited 2012-03-08 18:01:07]

[Edited 2012-03-08 18:02:21]

User currently offlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2026 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 8):
That was from the wind. The turbines long ago stopped turning due to the engine running, or they wouldn't have deplaned.

Haha, yes, I know... but as a little kid I didn't know the difference, and it was scary and exciting all at once.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Scroll down in the link below for an excerpt from Braniff's March 5, 1969 timetable for what was supposed to be their inaugural schedule to HNL and ITO effective April 14, 1969, all shown as operating with 707-320C (code B3F).

Ah, I stand corrected. I'd seen pictures of Braniff's ticket counter in Hilo's old "temporary" overseas terminal (basically an open-air shed with a few doors out to the apron) but didn't think they ever operated their own metal to ITO. The flight must not have lasted more than a year, since the 747 replaced the 707 on DAL-HNL in January of 1971.


User currently offlinePI767 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Thread starter):
What I'm wondering if when G4 and WN start flying to HI, does anyone think they may offer some inter-island tags to cover more than one Island with a single plane? I think G4 would trying to fill a 757 vs WN's 738's with their larger domestic network. I could see WN offering some Inter Island flights, What do ya'll think?

I may be wrong.... and someone with more knowledge correct me if I am.....

But I thought in Southwest's contract with their pilots, it specifically says that code-sharing is prohibited EXCEPT for on intra-Hawaii flights.

That, to me, says that Southwest has no desire to play a market in the intra-Hawaii routes for the time being.


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1935 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 7):
Does anyone think G4 or WN will do any inter-island tags when they first start, or maybe down the line.

Superficially, I can imagine WN doing routes like LAX-HNL-KOA-OAK. I do think that WN will have a point-to-point Hawaiian network from the mainland.

However, I'm not sure how the inter-island tag would work with the ETOPS rules and procedures. I think that brakes have to cool for a certain period of time. If that's true, then that would complicate things. There's also crew scheduling to consider... would the crews do 9 to 11 hours of flying time (LAX-HNL-KOA-OAK)? If not, will Hawaii have crew bases? Probably not.

I also don't think WN will have an inter-island only network with smaller planes. Don't think either the 25 -500s or the 717s will do it.



My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2560 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2126 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 7):
WN could operate a few 737s inter-island everyday, just to keep it honest over there.

Sure, because Hawaiian , Go!, and Island Air have been so unfair to the flying public up to now.   

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineunityofsaints From Ireland, joined Nov 2011, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 3):

They still flew this tag on the 6th of Jan of this year when I was on Hawaii, so it wasn't only a summer thing.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
Before deregulation, if memory correct the major carriers that sometimes served both HNL and ITO on the same flight did not have local traffic rights on the inter-island sectors.
Quoting ha763 (Reply 5):
It meant that U.S. carriers that wanted route authorities to Hawaii were awarded routes to ITO as a condition of getting HNL routes.

I think there could not have ben enough HNL-ITO traffic to fill a widebody a day, let alone 3-5, plus Aloha & Hawaiian would have suffered locally, therefore "no traffic rights" seems fair. So ITO was compulsory? That explains it, now UA has a hard time filling aq 738.

What was the heyday of these flights? The 90's? I flew AA, DL & UA HNL-OGG back and forth lots of times, a great mileage run for the day. Big DC-10's and L-1011'a, low fares, and decent times, were tags off the ORD & DFW flights.



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User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1849 times:
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Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 12):
However, I'm not sure how the inter-island tag would work with the ETOPS rules and procedures. I think that brakes have to cool for a certain period of time. If that's true, then that would complicate things


I know that maintenance personnel have to perform an ETOPS check, which takes 45 minutes to an hour to complete, not that it would affect through time that much. Although at WN that's twice what they schedule now for a turn!

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 12):
Superficially, I can imagine WN doing routes like LAX-HNL-KOA-OAK. I do think that WN will have a point-to-point Hawaiian network from the mainland.


I'm still having trouble imagining WN doing ANYTHING to Hawaii. Time for a reality check!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
What was the heyday of these flights?


I think the tag on flights were commonplace right after deregulation. As far as point to point, I know UA did LAX/SFO-Hilo a least once a day, more on weekends, with their "Super 8 to the Aloha State" from '67 to the early 80s. I imagine it was due to the lack of service to KOA at the time.

Tom SJC



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User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3607 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1776 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 16):
I'm still having trouble imagining WN doing ANYTHING to Hawaii. Time for a reality check!

Uh, well, the reality is that WN is a few weeks away from receiving its first 738 and they're working towards their ETOPs certification to operate flights to Hawaii with those aircraft. This isn't speculation or rumor, WN *will* be operating flights to Hawaii in the not so distant future.



PHX based
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1668 times:
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Quoting 777STL (Reply 17):
Uh, well, the reality is that WN is a few weeks away from receiving its first 738 and they're working towards their ETOPs certification to operate flights to Hawaii with those aircraft. This isn't speculation or rumor, WN *will* be operating flights to Hawaii in the not so distant future.



Yes, completely understood. As I said it's time for a (my own) reality check! It will be interesting to see which Hawaii routes WN winds up doing first.

Tom SJC



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineHumanitarian From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Back around 1970's I seem to recall United and the other mainland carriers offering a deal whereby you would fly into HNL and then over the next 7 days go to the islands of Kauai, Maui, Molokai and the Big Island via Hawaiian or Aloha airlines and then depart the state via Hilo. I think you could also do the reverse by going into Hilo first and then leaving via HNL.

User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3046 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
I think there could not have ben enough HNL-ITO traffic to fill a widebody a day, let alone 3-5, plus Aloha & Hawaiian would have suffered locally, therefore "no traffic rights" seems fair. So ITO was compulsory? That explains it, now UA has a hard time filling aq 738.

Your forgetting that ITO was the only airport on the Big Island handling mainland flights then. So if you wanted to go direct anywhere on the island you flew to ITO. Now that KOA handles direct mainland flights, people fly into there. KOA is on the sunny resort side of the island so that's where the traffic goes (even though I personally like ITO and that side better, most go where the sun is).

That's why UA has a hard time filling a flight to ITO, because most of the tourism traffic goes into KOA and that now gets direct flights. That was not true in 1970, so ITO did attract more direct mainland traffic.

The purpose of HNL-ITO tag-ons was not to provide local traffic - and it wasn't allowed then on the mainland carriers. It was to serve ITO. Of course there were a number of no-stops to ITO that didn't stop at HNL.


User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1588 times:

Quoting QANTAS747-438 (Reply 12):
would the crews do 9 to 11 hours of flying time (LAX-HNL-KOA-OAK)? If not, will Hawaii have crew bases? Probably not.

No reason the crews couldn't lay over in HNL or KOA.



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25106 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

Quoting Humanitarian (Reply 19):
Back around 1970's I seem to recall United and the other mainland carriers offering a deal whereby you would fly into HNL and then over the next 7 days go to the islands of Kauai, Maui, Molokai and the Big Island via Hawaiian or Aloha airlines and then depart the state via Hilo. I think you could also do the reverse by going into Hilo first and then leaving via HNL.

It was known as the "Hawaii Common Fare". You didn't have to arrive in HNL and depart from ITO or vice versa. You could also arrive and depart from the same point. Basically, the fare to all the islands was the same as the fare to the gateway point if you didn't stop over, and if you wanted to stop at one or more points you paid (if memory correct) a $5 stopover charge for each stop in addition to the through fare.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3046 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1517 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 16):
As far as point to point, I know UA did LAX/SFO-Hilo a least once a day, more on weekends, with their "Super 8 to the Aloha State" from '67 to the early 80s. I imagine it was due to the lack of service to KOA at the time.

Yep, and Western also flew 707s or 720s non-stop SFO/LAX-ITO during the same time frame. IIRC, United was the first airline to start flying direct mainland flights into LIH, OGG and KOA with DC-8-71s around 1981.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 23):
United was the first airline to start flying direct mainland flights into LIH, OGG and KOA with DC-8-71s around 1981.

I remember flying an EZ DC-8-52 PDX-OGG-PDX in August 1980.



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