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Air Canada Locks Out Pilots  
User currently offlinemultimark From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 796 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 22823 times:

Breaking-effective Monday

178 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1168 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 22854 times:

From the CBC:
Quote:
After giving its pilots an ultimatum to accept their final offer for a new labour contract, Air Canada will lock out its pilots effective midnight Eastern Time, on Monday morning.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/.../08/air-canada-strike.html?cmp=rss


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 22673 times:

Obviously this being in Canada, the Railway Labor Act doesn't apply, but what does this mean? Air Canada will operate no flights effective Monday? Or will Jazz still be able to operate Air Canada flights? What happens now?

User currently offlineAirCanada787 From Canada, joined Nov 2010, 285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 22502 times:

Another article from CTV, who interviewed Federal Labour Minister Lisa Raitt this morning.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...lvement-Air-Canada-dispute-120308/



The mind, like a parachute, functions only when open.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4304 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22329 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):
Or will Jazz still be able to operate Air Canada flights? What happens now?

Jazz is a separate company from AC and their pilots have a separate agreement. But what happens to their flights that connect through their hubs is the question.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22227 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 4):

Jazz is a separate company from AC and their pilots have a separate agreement. But what happens to their flights that connect through their hubs is the question.

Jazz operates a ton of US flights to a lot of the smaller destinations (places like MKE for example). How much of that traffic is O and D and how much connects in YYZ?


User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22081 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 2):

Ground Handlers are set to strike on Monday, so it's likely there will be a disruption to Jazz flights as well.

This is bad news for AC passengers, especially international pax, but good news for the domestic competition that will definitely scramble to pick up the slack.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineCYLW From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 438 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22085 times:

There isn't going to be any shutdown. The Minister of Labour will legislate them back to work. Pretty smart move by AC. The IAM was going to strike, so why not lock out the pilots at the same time and knock out 2 unions with one bit of legislation.

User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22054 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 6):
Ground Handlers are set to strike on Monday, so it's likely there will be a disruption to Jazz flights as well.

Ok...if the Ground Handlers strike how does this affect US airlines? Many US Airlines (Especially UA and US) are handled by Air Canada at Canadian Stations. If they strike, does this affect their operations as well, or is there a backup plan?


User currently offlineHOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3036 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 21918 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting apodino (Reply 8):

Ok...if the Ground Handlers strike how does this affect US airlines? Many US Airlines (Especially UA and US) are handled by Air Canada at Canadian Stations. If they strike, does this affect their operations as well, or is there a backup plan?

At YYZ, UA is handled by Swissport and US self-handles, below the wing.

For ground handling at YYZ other than AC, ZX and QK, 9W and OS will also be affected. I believe that AC maintenance deals with several other airlines, but not for any baggage/ramp duties.

[Edited 2012-03-08 12:18:56]


The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinemilehighflyer From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 21689 times:

Quoting CYLW (Reply 7):
Pretty smart move by AC. The IAM was going to strike, so why not lock out the pilots at the same time and knock out 2 unions with one bit of legislation.

The smarter move would be to actually find a way to motivate their workforce and slowly make amends. The literal definition of management "is the act of getting people together to accomplish desired goals and objectives using available resources efficiently and effectively"... The only thing AC management is doing effectively and efficiently is destroying shareholder & stakeholder value, feeding from the trough (21 senior executives? seriously???) and taking employee morale to the point where it might not be recoverable.


User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3038 posts, RR: 36
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21304 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting milehighflyer (Reply 10):
The smarter move would be to actually find a way to motivate their workforce and slowly make amends. The literal definition of management "is the act of getting people together to accomplish desired goals and objectives using available resources efficiently and effectively"... The only thing AC management is doing effectively and efficiently is destroying shareholder & stakeholder value, feeding from the trough (21 senior executives? seriously???) and taking employee morale to the point where it might not be recoverable.

This is easy to say from the outside looking in. Truth is these unions at AC are militant and hostile, ask fro far more than the market would offer and will strike almost every time the contract comes up for negotiation.

And for the rest of your statement:

The executives are responsible to the stake holders. These are the Board (who are responsible to the stock holders), customers (aka revenue generating) and the legal obligations of the company, which includes negotiating with it's unions.

You are lumping "management" with governance. This is a common mistake honestly. Executives do not "manage" the company, various levels of Managers, Directors, Team Leaders, etc etc "manage" the company. Governance means setting goals/objectives, making grow/cut/maintain decisions and answering to stake holders.

Also "21 senior executives" is a bit misleading. They have 21 executives, but this includes everything from VPs up. I would consider maybe 8 to be "senior" executives (President, Executive VPs and Senior VPs). My own company has no less than 43 VPs and higher.

And just to compare:

United: 27 executives.
GM: 24 (all senior VP or higher)
GE: 42
I don't think 21 is that many for a company the size of AC.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4994 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21224 times:

We need to stop the senior executive rhetoric. Whether there's 50 senior executives, or 2 senior executives, AC has a serious cost problem. With over 10 billion in revenue FY 2011, AC barely broke-even. With the problem centered around costs (which factor into billions, not millions), it's imperative that AC find a solution to profitability.

The pilots and others on this board will continue to dance around the issue, but ACPA is needed on side so that Air Canada can leverage lower cost opportunities in order to effectively compete with WestJet, Transat, Delta, Emirates, Turkish, Cathay, Air China etc all with lower cost structures. Pilots are being offered moderate wage increases, but are asked for support around constraints such as pension for new hires, scope clauses, productivity issues and LCC. I don't think there's any proposal to a pay cut for current pilots.

It's a golden principle rule of business that the player with the lowest cost's ultimately wins. If Air Canada continues down this path, it won't win. Pilots/FA/Management all need to get on side, and find a common vision to improve the viability of this airline - otherwise all employees and many Canadian communities stand a lot to lose.

I would hate for this discussion to be hijacked by self-interested groups. If Air Canada doesn't win, neither will it's pilots/regional providers/and management employees.

[Edited 2012-03-08 13:46:26]

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26610 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 21129 times:

Its pretty tiring to see AC try and run to the right wing government currently in Ottawa every time they have a labor dispute.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2250 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20975 times:

Tomorrow alone there will be over 100,000 people flying out of YYZ for Spring Break. The Mechanics threatened to strike Monday knowing full well that this is a crucial travel period for tons of people across Canada. AC going on strike then would have massive consequences for the traveling public. So taking care of the pilots along with the mechanics is just icing on the cake. I think it says a lot about the unions that they would hold hostage people who are in Florida, the Islands or Mexico on their spring break and having a hastle getting flights back. The union movement is suffering big time from out of touch unions and moves like this spell an even quicker slide in public opinion and support. You should see some of the propriatary surveys of the public.

I have no problem with the government protecting the masses of travelers, who in these economic times have got together enough money for a family vacation and are looking at massive disruption, uncertainty and potentially large extra costs through lost deposits if they cancel their trip, or extra fees if they have to make alternative arrangements.


User currently offlineWildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20874 times:

Well, nothing will happen.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...lvement-Air-Canada-dispute-120308/


However, for me, an Air Canada loyal customer, it's getting really tiresome.


User currently offlineElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 1019 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20799 times:

I have no stake in either side here, before anyone accuses me of being biased. I've been watching this AC saga for a while now, and it just lurches from worse to worse. Management's behavior today was the icing on the cake. It was such a masterpiece of cynical strategy that I don't know how anyone associated with AC can justify what they did today.

The absurd noon deadline (correct me if I m wrong, but wasn't there a six month negotiation period in play?), the deliberate bracketing of this with the Machinist proposed strike, and, of course, the timing - smack in the middle of March break. Talk about negotiating in bad faith. As someone on AC's facebook page noted -we understand what you're trying to do, but why couldn't it wait till after the March break? I suspect we all know the answer.

Honestly, until now, I had little sympathy for the pilots. There are enough pockets of aviation growth around the world where they could go work if they didn't like working for AC. I don't see any reason why they must work only in Canada when jobs left, right and center are getting 'Bangalore'd'. That said, AC's management team also achieved a new low with its cynical strategy.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
Truth is these unions at AC are militant and hostile

At worst, they are now on the same level as AC management. I don't recall them doing anything nearly as cynical as what management did today.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
Executives do not "manage" the company, various levels of Managers, Directors, Team Leaders, etc etc "manage" the company.

The buck stops with the executives. They're compensated well because of the supposed demands of their job. That is all well and good (I m not a member of the 99), but when you create an environment this toxic in your company, where the majority of employees have developed a near-personal hatred for the leadership, you probably shouldn't be in whatever office you hold. Morale is low, and now the relationship appears to be even more toxic - in fact, I doubt it can get worse.

Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 11):
United: 27 executives.
GM: 24 (all senior VP or higher)
GE: 42
I don't think 21 is that many for a company the size of AC.
GE has 287,000 employees and 42 executives. AC has 27,000 employees and 21. Thats 1/12th the size of GE with 1/2 the number of executives. To top it off, GE has several large companies in several industries under the GE umbrella. AC is one company in one industry.

GM - 202,000 employees to AC's 27,000. 24 senior VPs to AC's 8. I think we can both agree that GM is about 8-9 times larger than AC. And yet it only has 3 times the number of senior VPs.

Whatever you were trying to show there isn't very clear.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
it's imperative that AC find a solution to profitability.

Might be better if they just go the CCAA way now, no? I imagine you've read what Schulich's Prof Lazar had to say on the topic. I seem to be under the impression that he has a special relationship with AC.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
The pilots and others on this board will continue to dance around the issue, but ACPA is needed on side so that Air Canada can leverage lower cost opportunities in order to effectively compete with WestJet, Transat, Delta, Emirates, Turkish, Cathay, Air China etc all with lower cost structures.

This is where my sympathy for AC and the pilots both ends. If you want to lower cost structures to match airlines in other countries, you're going to have to do a lot more than cut salaries of unionized employees; you're going to have to chop them across the board. Paying management a first-world salary while trying to reduce pilot salaries to second-world levels is a bit simplistic - and its bound to stir up union opposition.

Another thing struck me as odd today. IATA, of all people, launched a full frontal attack on Canada's aviation policy recently. To be quite honest, I've heard more from Rovinescu about Emirates than I have about taxes. Why is AC not lobbying the government to lower taxes etc? The entire focus is on internal costs, with no emphasis on external costs (like aviation taxes). Why is AC not using its financial plight to lobby for concession in terms of aviation policies? Is it afraid that lower taxes will lead to US LCCs coming into Canada? Is it afraid that it might annoy the government and not get away with underhand tricks in future union disputes?

As for the pilots, we know theres demand elsewhere. Why don't they go work there? An experienced AC pilot shouldn't have problems getting another job. There are many thousands of Canadians who leave Canada because it doesn't offer them the opportunities they want. Why are pilots so special? Yes, I understand its difficult, but in this day and age, people do have to move frequently for employment. Or they can stay in Canada and take what they get. So no, no sympathy there. My only sympathy for the pilots rests on the fact that they have to deal AC management, who's cynicism today has been...remarkable.



Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):

It's a golden principle rule of business that the player with the lowest cost's ultimately wins. If Air Canada continues down this path, it won't win. Pilots/FA/Management all need to get on side, and find a common vision to improve the viability of this airline - otherwise all employees and many Canadian communities stand a lot to lose.

Do they really? At what point would it be more sensible to go the nuclear option and finish Air Canada off a la Swiss. Any loss would be short term at best, since demand isn't going to dry up, and where there's demand, there will be supply. The only difference now is that there won't be a gargantuan AC type company trying to muscle new entrants out (thinking VX on LAX/SFO). If anything, the collapse of AC might even be a boon, since it would allow new entrants to come in with less opposition and less predatory pricing / "price parallelism".

At the same time, new contracts with employees can fix everything (well, thats what AC seems to claim). Why is this not an option? The infrastructure is ready. The workforce will have more than enough experienced labor to kickstart things in a heartbeat.

Quoting flyyul (Reply 12):
If Air Canada doesn't win, neither will it's pilots/regional providers/and management employees.

Which begs the question - who is Air Canada - its pilots/unionized members or management employees? The only thing we've learnt over the past few years is that both sides claim they are Air Canada. And they can't even be in the same room together.

[Edited 2012-03-08 14:55:40]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 20692 times:

"Air Canada needs to behave like the private sector corporation that it is and stop running to the government every time it has a problem, which, as you can see, is often."

Read more: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...nada-dispute-120308/#ixzz1oZMBIBnS


The funny bit is, AC's workers use the government at all times in their negotiations. There are numerous pro-union laws in the books that this guy isn't mentioning. To me, this "lock out" strategy is just the union having a taste of it's own medicine.

For the record, I prefer to side against the government because of my dislike for "back to work" legislation like the one cited in the article above. Canada stopped forcefully sending people "back to work" in the 1830s and I much prefer this remain something studied in history courses rather than practiced today.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFiedman From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20480 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 14):
I have no problem with the government protecting the masses of travelers, who in these economic times have got together enough money for a family vacation and are looking at massive disruption, uncertainty and potentially large extra costs through lost deposits if they cancel their trip, or extra fees if they have to make alternative arrangements.

Amen to that



Westjet - Canada's National Low-fare Airline
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26610 posts, RR: 75
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20346 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):

"Air Canada needs to behave like the private sector corporation that it is and stop running to the government every time it has a problem, which, as you can see, is often."

This is completely true.

Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20153 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.

I do agree with the statement. But unions should play by the same rules. Bargaining power = perfectly ok. Government power = no.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20113 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
This is completely true.

Honestly, this is people using their market power to affect change - given your track record, you should support it.

Using market power to raise prices is anti-competitive behaviour whether it benefits management or workers.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25653 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20026 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
For the record, I prefer to side against the government because of my dislike for "back to work" legislation like the one cited in the article above. Canada stopped forcefully sending people "back to work" in the 1830s and I much prefer this remain something studied in history courses rather than practiced today.

That remiinds me of the strike by Canadian airport firefighters in April 1974 that virtually shut down air service in Canada for about two weeks. They were ordered back to work but refused to comply in several cities. I believe they were later declared an essential service and are now prohibited from striking. I think air traffic controllers are in the same category.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7700 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 20023 times:

Seems that management have little reason to negotiate.

Not really a good idea.

It could be extended to other sectors.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8969 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 19929 times:

Quoting saloman (Reply 21):
Using market power to raise prices is anti-competitive behaviour whether it benefits management or workers.

There is nothing wrong with negotiating for a more competitive price, whether it's lower or higher, or practiced by buyers or sellers. This is life as usual and everybody does it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 PPVRA : Unfortunately there are indeed other, more recent examples. One could argue that farm laborers are essential workers. . imagine if they all stopped l
26 saloman : Certainly. But my reference was more to the nature of unions themselves - I wish I could take credit for the phrase "Labour Cartels", but I can't. It
27 yyz717 : No one is being held hostage. Everyone who buys an airline seat is doing so voluntarily. The AC union issues are well documented and anyone who buys
28 Revelation : The article says: So, what kind of rulings can the 'labour board' make? Can it say we're fine with the lockout by the pilots and the strike by the gr
29 saloman : The Board will just be making a ruling on "health and safety" grounds based on the "maintenance of activities" clause of the Canada Labour Code. This
30 pnwtraveler : The Labour Board can impose a settlement that it feels is fair like a court. The last situation with AC that went to the Labour Board, the final comp
31 Post contains images WestJet747 : The number of executives is in no way correlated to number of employees, not linearly anyway. If you want to make a comparison then you would have to
32 Revelation : Thanks. I imagine both binding arbitration and an imposed settlement aren't very predictable. I guess in the end, AC wins by not having the work stop
33 ElPistolero : I didn't mean to limit it to taxes. They should be able to use this to get some relief from the Air Canada whatever-its-called act that supposedly bu
34 ANM604 : Perhaps you're not that familiar with the IAM, but I can assure you, they are just as ridiculous, at the best of times. The ACPA aren't anywhere near
35 Post contains links Viscount724 : WS isn't happy with status quo on taxes. The four largest Canadian carries, AC, WS, TS and Jazz, established a lobby group in 2008 called the Nationa
36 AvroArrow : Don't get me started on the level of taxes levied on air travellers in this country. Not only are they almost always the largest part of your fare, bu
37 ElPistolero : I think you're including fuel surcharges and navcan surcharges in your calculation as 'taxes'. Neither of them are taxes. They go to AC and are essen
38 yxu737 : Let them strike if they want to and we are in Canada and collective bargaining is important and has been part of our culture for a long time and greed
39 AC7E7 : No matter what management does, the unions and their members will never be happy. Nobody is forcing the employees to work at Air Canada, and if they f
40 Post contains images ANM604 : It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone down the "greedy corporations" rhetoric, it's not like AC employees are in China
41 YULWinterSkies : Don't wanna flame anybody, but it's a four-player competition: the management, the unions, the government, and the customers. All of them want more fo
42 yxu737 : Quoting yxu737 (Reply 38): and greedy corporations take advantage of employees. It's Canada we're talking about here, not Africa. Let's try and tone d
43 mmedford : That's pretty much what the Canadian Government did here... get back to work, as an executive order. This is not the government's place...they are a
44 StarAC17 : If you want to make AC employees an essential service usually there is a compensation premium for doing so which is why people in life and death prof
45 NorthStarDC4M : Exactly... The problem today is that the unions have become political entities instead of labour barganing groups. I've long been pro-union anti-unit
46 YXD172 : Yes, so he's not a bad person for accepting what was given to him. But he has the choice to decline the bonus, or even just part of it. But, by takin
47 Kaiarahi : So how would you suggest I get from YOW to YQB, YQM, YYT and YXU for meetings next week?
48 Kaiarahi : You do realize that corporations have shareholders, right? Those shareholders are individuals, pension funds, etc. Not really - it punted the strike/
49 whiteguy : This is what I think is pretty pathetic in this country. AC employees are fighting for pay, working conditions, their careers and their future.......
50 PPVRA : Mixing legal and finance terms can lead to this confusion. AC is both a private company (private sector) and also publicly listed and traded (still i
51 saloman : This is the kind of attitude that has left ACs brand in tatters with Canadians. It is not selfish for a Canadian to think that if they take time off
52 whiteguy : You mean the salary, benefits, and pension the company is trying to take away? Really? ACPA has continually made it clear that they did not want to s
53 saloman : Which labour unit wasn't offer a pay increase in excess of inflation? I certainly have no knowledge on the negotiations outside of whats publicly rep
54 yyz717 : AC owners and management are fighting to keep AC above water and out of bankruptcy and eventual collapse. So your point is????
55 whiteguy : Yet taking millions in bonuses and pay, their not giving up any of that are they? No, just going after the employees again! And not one group is at t
56 Post contains images ANM604 : Right. Like the 11% wage increase offered to the IAM? The public has no idea what happens behind the closed doors, it's easy for either the ACPA or m
57 whiteguy : And if your checking, last time they hired they couldn't find enough that were bilingual! Something they need by law! No kidding!!!! And like I said
58 ElPistolero : Actually, it is selfish to think a pilot is at one's beck and call when they have very clear and longstanding grievances with the company. Canadians
59 Post contains links saloman : And how did that work out ten years ago? Well then enlighten us. Which AC labour group was not offered a pay increase in their most recent round of n
60 saloman : I don't disagree with the crux of your point, but to paint a customer as selfish for expecting a ticket to be honoured with a flight is the anti-cust
61 multimark : No, by refusing to acknowledge the company's severe financial problems they made it clear they wanted to strike. By continually harping on executive
62 wedgetail737 : Bad for AC and the Canadian traveling public (but it happens). Good for some major US airlines, Air Transat, Sunwing, Porter, Westjet and other Canadi
63 ElPistolero : It is terrible for AC's brand, but everybody's equally responsible for it, and at the end of the day, consumers have to take into account possible co
64 yyz717 : Pan Am. Eastern, Braniff, Ansett, Malev staff were also very professional. But now no one works for these airlines due to ongoing losses and bankrupt
65 sebring : That was good PR, nothing more. Now, I don't think a lot of pilots want to strike, not when the first tentative contract was accepted by one third of
66 sebring : The government has announced strike-ending legislation for the pilots and machinists. There will be no protracted conflict, and maybe none at all.
67 mmedford : So when did Air Canada employees start working for the government to be claimed as essential?
68 multimark : But neither will there be any resolution to AC's toxic labour relations. The minister has probably just prolonged the inevitable death spiral. At som
69 Post contains images pnwtraveler : The management/labour relations is totally soured in this case and I don't think it is going to change anytime soon. It is nearly impossible to change
70 ElPistolero : Interesting. Didn't even think of that. In your estimation, has either side been pushing for arbitration? Will either side benefit from it *more* tha
71 sebring : On certain issues, like the creation of a low cost carrier, the company may have a hard time getting a blank cheque from an arbitrator to do what it
72 sebring : They aren't essential. It's nonsense, but the government is also unwilling to abolish the Air Canada Public Participation Act and let Air Canada act
73 yyz717 : How do we know the govt is unwilling to abolish the ACPPA? I don't recall AC mgmt asking for this, and I don't recall the Conservative govt having an
74 TheCol : That is yet to be determined by the Canadian Labour Relations Board. It'll take them a while though, meanwhile the government will take advantage of
75 sebring : Because they amended the ACPPA slightly and didn't abrogate it to raise the single shareholder ownership limit to 25%. Because they extended, by legi
76 sebring : Stephen Harper said Friday that back to work legislation is being readied so that there is no strike or lockout.
77 Skydrol : What a relief for those with business and vacation travel plans which include flights on AC. LD4
78 TheCol : If I recall correctly, as per the Canada Labour Code, the feds reserve the right to prevent strike action by employees of companies that provide "ess
79 YVRLTN : Just wondering...... where do Jetz fit into this? Would all the NHL teams be without a team bus for example? I know, at least here in YVR, ground hand
80 yyz717 : But what is stopping parliament from amending the ACPPA again, or scapping it altogether? Nothing, right? It boggles my mind that Lisa Raitt is focus
81 IndianicWorld : It just sounds like AC have read the QF playbook and agreed with it. Ongoing union action can actually be just as damaging as a lock-out, as a solutio
82 Skydrol : Couldn't happen soon enough, in fact it should have happened right when AC was privatized. Level the playing ground and then let AC sink or swim. I a
83 multimark : A true free enterprise, business oriented political party would not insert themselves into a private company's business to this degree. It would be s
84 yyz717 : I voted for the same Conservative government and Lisa Raitt's behaviour is NOT business oriented. A business oriented approach would be to NOT get in
85 StarAC17 : If something is deemed an essential service then it is usually listed in the contract of the union and very few unions have that clause because they
86 SonomaFlyer : Given that AC is the only link to the outside world for many communities in Canada, that may be at least one reason why it is deemed an essential serv
87 Kaiarahi : This not the case under the Canada Labour Code. 87.4 (1) During a strike or lockout ... the employer, the trade union and the employees in the bargai
88 yyz717 : Harper has a majority with only 5 Quebec seats. He doesn't need support from Quebec to govern. Not true. AC mainline has competition at every single
89 YTZ : I seriously doubt that there's more than a handful of routes where this is true. And in that case, the government can declare those routes essential,
90 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Legislation was introduced a few minutes ago: http://parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/...lication.aspx?Docid=5446070&file=4 Essentially, it provides f
91 Post contains links ElPistolero : Amen. Its a bit unfair comparing AC to companies south of the border. They face relentless competition, and if they're about to go bottom-up, the gov
92 Post contains links Boeingorbust : http://www.canada.com/business/Back+...t+strike+Canada/6290407/story.html And therefore the purpose of their union is...?
93 Viscount724 : What emergency loans has the Canadian government made to airlines? I can't think of any.
94 StarAC17 : Umm the airlines in the US were given bailouts after 9/11, after AC was privatized it has received nothing from the feds since then. All the capital
95 ElPistolero : Ah yes. I keep forgetting about the US government bailouts post 9/11. AC recieved emergency loans in 2009, no? The ones from EDC and the Govt? I reca
96 Viscount724 : How can you say that when you look at the number of international carriers that serve Canada? In relation to Canada's small population I would say Ca
97 Post contains links ElPistolero : 2009 - by the looks of it, $250 million from EDC and $100million from the Federal Government's Canada account. (See Harper quote in my post above). h
98 ElPistolero : Very simple. Prices. Compare them, for similar length journeys, to prices from Australia, from Europe, from the US. I've lived in several countries (
99 Viscount724 : When I look at fares from Europe to Canada they're usually about the same (sometimes lower) as to U.S. destinations where the mileage is roughly the
100 yyz717 : Agreed. AC operates in the best possible environment of any international carrier in the world: a prosperous population spread out among cities makin
101 ElPistolero : And it means that a route is underserved and, therefore, by definition, uncompetitive. BA can command a certain price because it doesn't have to worr
102 Post contains images TheCol : Correct, not sure if Bill C-33 actually amends the Canada Labour Code or is a separate piece of legislation altogether. My understanding is that the
103 Kaiarahi : Separate. I think you'll see C-33 passed before the CIRB rules, and CIRB will then say the question is moot.
104 CRJ 900 : Time for this government to be forced out of power.
105 Kaiarahi : Hate to disappoint you, but their mandate expires in May, 2016.
106 whiteguy : A perfect operating enviroment??? Now that is funny. How is Canada a perfect operating enviroment??
107 Post contains images ORDBOSEWR : Yeah, jet fuel prices are at rock bottom prices and they are basically getting the fuel for free.... I mean UA didn't announce today a reducing in fu
108 Viscount724 : I wouldn't consider BA short of competition in the Canada-UK market with AC operating nonstop sevice between 7 Canadian cities (8 in the summer) and
109 yyz717 : For all the reasons I stated: high per capita income, spread out population, lack of ground competition, no other large intl carrier based on Canada,
110 ElPistolero : You can paint it how you want - but at the end of the day, high prices reflect a discrepancy between demand and supply, which implies a lack of compe
111 flyyul : You do realize that since 2003 Air Canada has started the following routes; YYZSCLEZE YYZLIM YYZBOG YYZCPH YYZHKG YYZPEK YYZPVG YYZBCN YYZATH YULGVA
112 Viscount724 : When BD served Canada LH only had a minority financial interest in BD and had no ability to make decisions affecting their operations. But your examp
113 ANM604 : Yes because having 10,000 people 500km from the nearest major airport is in some way beneficial? Hardly. Better to have as many people as close toget
114 ElPistolero : I don't know what in my post prompted that. I am glad AC has started serving new places. That post was within the context of LHR-AC 867 doesn't show
115 ElPistolero : Is there? I mean, I m noticing less flights from YYZ/YUL to LHR. To be honest, I don't count charters as real carriers since their schedules are too
116 multimark : That's an odd statement. In the summer, peak travel time to Canada, the segment of the population which you disparage makes up a large part of the tr
117 ElPistolero : Disparage? I m not disparaging anyone. I used to be a student myself. It is a niche market because it is flexible in terms of schedule and very price
118 YOWVIEWER : Speedbird 94/95 has been the only daily to YUL for a long, long time. Even back in the good old '70's they were operating one daily 747 to YUL - one
119 YOWVIEWER : Also, a follow up to the comment on some work-to-rule stuff, I heard one flight was delayed due to a bunch of fruit loops appearing all over the floor
120 NorthStarDC4M : Crossing the Canada-US border will double taxes and fees on that portion of any flight. I don't know where you are seeing a "premium" on services to
121 pnwtraveler : People don't get that Canada's population is smaller than the state of California and while a large chunk lives between the Toronto to Montreal area,
122 yyz717 : But how many of these are profitable and sustainable? Keep in mind Pan Am, Eastern, Ansett etc all started various new routes in their last year. The
123 flyyul : Neil - I assure you most of them are quite sustainable.
124 ElPistolero : Speedbird 44 - a 772 - flew to YUL in addition to Speedbird 94/95. I flew Speedbird 94/95 a lot but I took 44/45 at least once. Fair enough. Taxes ar
125 ElPistolero : Apologies for the inconsistent text. Y Y Z is getting omitted from my posts. It should be in there in places like Toronto - EWR - LHR. I am not compa
126 F9Animal : It is obvious that the labor situation at AC is dire. Both sides of the table are not working together. I do put a large portion of this problem on le
127 northstardc4m : Lowest available for week 04/30-05/06 one way, all taxes/fees included. Not the best comparison... comparing connecting city costs will always go scr
128 ElPistolero : More volatile in competitive markets than in uncompetitive ones. If that's a return price, then all I can do is point out that you a sub-$800 or even
129 ANM604 : Yup, 4x weekly, running from May 24th ish to Oct 25th I believe. They have stated it will be with a 343, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the 346 s
130 Post contains links ElPistolero : Looks like AC have had an interesting day today. Nobody is pointing fingers yet, and FWIW, it was very foggy here in YOW till at least 11 am. http://w
131 AC7E7 : The union knows exactly what they are doing, and the industrial relations board must investigate. Stress and fatigue.... give me a break.
132 Post contains links ElPistolero : It sounds like a work-to-rule situation. What can AC do? Fire them all? If a pilot says he's not mentally fit to fly, it leaves everybody with precio
133 AC7E7 : You know, I can think of worse jobs. If the pilots feel as though they are overworked and entitled to better treatment, go work for another airline.
134 Kaiarahi : C-33 "23. The union and each officer and representative of the union must .... (c) refrain from any conduct that may encourage employees not to comply
135 multimark : Its time to put down this airline. Let pilots and management fully enjoy the fruits of their labour on the unemployment line.
136 yyz717 : I agree with all your comments. AC is possibily in its death throes: horrendous ongoing losses, incompetent mgmt, poisonous management/union relation
137 AC7E7 : Westjet will eventually become a network carrier like AC. They have created a very good domestic network, and will solidify it with their new regional
138 Post contains links ElPistolero : And the finger-pointing has started. AC has finally accused pilots of disrupting schedules. "While Air Canada supports the right of its employees to b
139 AC7E7 : Are the pilots who took the day off back to work? Does one day off really reduce stress levels? If the pilots are claiming stress, then I don't expec
140 ElPistolero : Its still an insignificant number given the number of flights AC operates on a daily basis. If this was orchestrated, it would have been a lot more w
141 yyz717 : A fair accusation, probably. But who can blame the pilots? They had their legitimate right to strike removed by an interfering government. Work to ru
142 WestJet747 : I think many decided not to partake because they realize their jobs would be at stake. You're suggesting they break the law. How very professional of
143 Post contains images yyz717 : No, I'm suggesting that if individual AC pilots are feeling ill, they should call in sick. This is well within the law. No, it's their job to investi
144 Post contains images AvroArrow : My opinion, since everyone is entitled to one, is this: There are a lot of WS vs AC people in this thread, you probably all dislike each other and the
145 ANM604 : No, you clearly stated you supported deliberate tactics by the union that is in direct violation of the law, and in fact, is not "completely acceptab
146 Post contains images yyz717 : No, I said that call-in-sick behaviour is appropriate. And it is. If they are sick of course. And who can prove they're not sick? Surely you don't wa
147 StarAC17 : Most of these companies you mention are only interested in short term returns if you want long term success you make sure your staff has good morale
148 longhauler : I hate to ruin a good argument, but this is just another tactic by Air Canada. First of all, no more pilots called in sick at Air Canada over the last
149 captaingomes : longhauler, you forgot to mention that Westjet, Porter and other airlines also cancelled a number of flights in YUL in similar proportion to Air Canad
150 Kaiarahi : Whether they did or didn't is a bit beside the point. There's an e-mail from an ACPA official now in the public domain which "encourages" pilots to c
151 captaingomes : Kaiarahi, I don't work for Air Canada, but to be honest this would be a very stressful time, increasing the likelihood that pilots would have financia
152 longhauler : This was not an "encouragement" it was a reminder that pilots are legally bound by CARS not fly when unfit. And, that if there were any incident wher
153 Kaiarahi : It was obviously worded carefully, but it's pretty close to the line. I wouldn't be surprised to see a warning from CIRB that a repeat will see the f
154 longhauler : Except that no more called in sick than in previous years ... and still less than 1% of the pilot group. Hardly "job action". And, human nature being
155 brilondon : If the pilots caused disruption due to sick outs, I am not seeing it after reviewing the statistics from Sunday. It appears that weather related disru
156 whiteguy : Out of the 23 cancelations in YUL this weekend 3 of them were AC mainline, the rest were Jazz! That's some labor disruption!
157 Post contains images ElPistolero : Pleased to see the pilots weigh in. The numbers looked too small to suggest that it was orchestrated. And why not? If its carefully worded, its safe.
158 longhauler : Actually the rest were both Jazz and SkyRegional, as the weather was pretty bad. But yes, the numbers are true. "remarkable" is being very gracious.
159 ElPistolero : I m just surprised that the ACPA is taking this on the chin. Apart from the odd story here or there, the media is paying scant attention. Can't ACPA
160 yyz717 : AC management doesn't need to negotiate. They can rely on an interfering Federal Minister of Labour to remove the strike provision tilting the proces
161 Post contains images ANM604 : Really? Do you think the average pilot is that stressed that they can't fly? Not likely. I'm sure most pilots would rather see this whole saga over a
162 StarAC17 : That goes both ways as the same government has prevented the management to lock the pilots out, therefore no actual union busting or caving technique
163 longhauler : Yes, that has been the pilot's main gripe all along. The fact that AC doesn't need to, nor has negotiated, as they know the conservative government i
164 Post contains links ElPistolero : I am all for debate, but some facts don't change: "Spokesman Peter Fitzgerald said the airline experienced "numerous delays and cancellations" over t
165 longhauler : The only place these statements can come, is from Air Canada's PR department, not from the employees. One thing to remember. Air Canada employees are
166 ANM604 : "That day, a source at Air Canada mentioned a number of pilots had called in sick, but could not say if it was a factor in the cancellations. Officia
167 threepoint : They didn't have to; the implication, though carefully worded, was clear in that Fitzgerald statement, and has raised the public ire. Once again, the
168 Airontario : I flew from LAX to YYZ on Sunday via YYC. My connecting flight to YYZ was cancelled. I didn't even have to say anything and I was handed a Hotel and
169 longhauler : The public belives what they want to believe. The press reports what they feel will sell. As we continually see on here, both are usually far from th
170 Kaiarahi : ACPA filed a Charter challenge against the back to work legislation in the Ontario Superior Court about 30 minutes ago.
171 boeingorbust : Wasn't there a bunch of AC pilots that called in sick over the weekend to make an example?
172 Kaiarahi : Did you read the last 30 posts on this thread?
173 Post contains links ElPistolero : Strachan has pretty much called for AC's entire executive to be sacked. He's declared that that is the only way to improve the situation. http://www.c
174 ANM604 : And at the same time you get the province of Quebec dreaming up a lawsuit to "force AC to hire back Aveos so that all the jobs remain there". It's am
175 ElPistolero : Quebec has tried all sorts of things several times (including something to do with all inclusive pricing before the feds stepped up). It is meant to
176 Post contains images yyz717 : Anecdotal. Good. It would be great to see the BTW legislation overturned. Though I suspect this doesn't have a prayer. He IS right. They ARE incompet
177 threepoint : Please read it in its entirety and in the context in which it was written. Anecdotal, yes, but made to illustrate a pertinent point. Is this because
178 yyz717 : Not really. It was a story about flying from YVR to YOW. The former. I believe in small government and non-interference with business. Lisa Raitt was
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