Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AF/KL, AB And EY Against LH  
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9406 times:

According to newspaper:

Etihad is talking with AF/KL Group to utilize Air Berlin to weaken Lufthansa in Germany.
AF is even open to joint venture with Air Berlin and to do codeshare flights Germany to France on AB metal.


Fly easyJet
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 747 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9323 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Wow, that would be a step!

If AF/KL is really going to work with AB, I think the end of Transavia might be in sight.
Anyway, due to the economic downturn, rationalising is very logical.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1141 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9246 times:

Quoting Delta777Jet (Thread starter):

Etihad is talking with AF/KL Group to utilize Air Berlin to weaken Lufthansa in Germany.
AF is even open to joint venture with Air Berlin and to do codeshare flights Germany to France on AB metal.

Link?

And what would that do to the alliances?


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5133 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9169 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
And what would that do to the alliances?

Well, AB can join Skyteam, its quite easy to switch, look at CO for example.


User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9169 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
Link?

Easy to google:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...operation-ft-deutschland-says.html
http://www.aero.de/news-14653/Air-Fr...an-Kooperation-mit-Air-Berlin.html


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):

Quoting LOWS (Reply 2):
And what would that do to the alliances?

Well, AB can join Skyteam, its quite easy to switch, look at CO for example.


It's actually not easy at all. It involves expensive IT work, exit penalties in the tens of millions and tons of other arduous contractual and legal nuances.

But there is nothing stopping airlines from code sharing with other alliance carriers. AF and QF are just one example of many.



a.
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8851 times:

May be also the Air Berlin FF program will be the first to link Skyteam and Oneworld. Would make it an interesting choice especially for members from Europe and would be a real advantage for Air Berlin against Lufthansa Miles and Less.


Fly easyJet
User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8815 times:

Aren't AB joining OW in the near future?. Wouldn't BA for instance have something to say about AB maybe feeding AF/KL longhaul flights etc

Be interesting to see what happens


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 8598 times:

From a BA - AB's oneworld sponsor - press release dated 2 February:

"British Airways is to welcome airberlin to oneworld in March, as part of its plans to strengthen its network in Germany, and throughout south and central Europe."


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5133 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8387 times:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 8):
"British Airways is to welcome airberlin to oneworld in March, as part of its plans to strengthen its network in Germany, and throughout south and central Europe."

Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8243 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example

No. Of course not. And I certainly never suggested it did. I simply providied a source to asnswer the question:

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 7):
Aren't AB joining OW in the near future?.


So at the risk of being repetitive let me repeat that BA formally issued a statement early last month that AB would be joining oneworld in March.


User currently offlinedennys From France, joined May 2001, 878 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

AF is thinking twice about it . Its financial position is too bad .
I guess such airlines like EY do want dolid partnters .


User currently offlinejr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 968 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8096 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.

AF code shared with Finnair at one point as well. I distinctly remember flying on an AF ticket from DFW to HEL with a AY aircraft on CDG-HEL. Is that partnership still in place?



I've flown on 9V-SPK.
User currently offlineB747forever From Sweden, joined May 2007, 17065 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7992 times:

Quoting jr (Reply 12):
Is that partnership still in place?

Yes it is.



Work Hard, Fly Right
User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5193 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7893 times:

Quoting dennys (Reply 11):
AF is thinking twice about it . Its financial position is too bad .
I guess such airlines like EY do want dolid partnters .

AF would still be a solid partner.

I personally would like to see -

Etihad join Skyteam

Etihad but a major stake in Virgin Australia

Virgin Australia and Virgin Atlantic join Skyteam (VA already has the Delta JV)

Etihad invest in AF/KL/AZ and have AB move to Skyteam.

Ok so Im dreaming... I did say it is what I would like to see!


User currently offlinechootie From Germany, joined May 2007, 286 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7889 times:

Hi to all!!

Interesting in as much as AF and OS code share on some VIE-CDG frequencies, and AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

Could they possibly want to be similar to AS in the USA--with the exception that they are entering an alliance?



chootie
User currently offlineORDJOE From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5403 times:

JL and AF do a lot of code sharing and JL codeshares with a number of skyteam and a few *A partners
CX is with CA, VN
QF with EVA, EI, MU, GA, VN, Kenya


It is not a high crime (although AA seems to refuse to do this at all costs) to codeshare with someone out of your alliance, they are still independent members that are accountable for their own profits and need to do what they can to stay in the black.

I highly doubt AB will defect to skyteam at this point, and I hope not as I want miles that actually are worth something when flying them.


User currently offlinetoobz From Finland, joined Jan 2010, 781 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Quoting jr (Reply 12):
Well, that still doesnt have to say AB cant codeshare with AF for example. AF ( Skyteam ) is codesharing with QF ( Oneworld) for example.

AF code shared with Finnair at one point as well. I distinctly remember flying on an AF ticket from DFW to HEL with a AY aircraft on CDG-HEL. Is that partnership still in place?

Well yes they started the codeshare after AF stopped flying to HEL.
I haven't checked lately but I would assume the still do.


User currently offlineTW741 From Liechtenstein, joined Sep 2004, 478 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

Quoting chootie (Reply 15):
and AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

AB is the 100% owner of FlyNiki HG which is a little more than "aligned".

The specutlated codesharing/partnering of AF and AB is related to secondary French airports passing by the CDG hub, linking cities like Lyon or Toulouse direct with BER or DUS. Same would be a good network extension and feeder for Etihad.



TWA - we showed you how good we have been!
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2618 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3902 times:

So is AB saying bye-bye to OW even before joining? All its recent moves (the Etihad deal, now AF codeshare) point away from OW, and particularly away from BA / IB, not towards them. I'm getting more and more the impression that AB will be OW only on paper. What is their strategy¿?  

I for one was looking fwd to AB joining OW as it will provide a competitive balance against Star & Skyteam in central Europe, but perhaps they had other ideas?


User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 233 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 19):
I for one was looking fwd to AB joining OW as it will provide a competitive balance against Star & Skyteam in central Europe, but perhaps they had other ideas?

When it is profitable for airlines to cooperate with airlines outside of their alliance, they will do so. An alliance is nothing more than a framework for stable code share arrangement, not a joint venture or anything of that kind. If it would be, it would be very anticompetitive and as such probably not allowed.

The same holds for this plan. If AF/KL, AB and EY indeed have the plan to specifically destabilize LH with this agreement, it wouldn't be far fetched to call it predatory behavior, in which case anti competition authorities may need to step in.


User currently offlineVV701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Quoting chootie (Reply 15):
AB is somehow aligned with HG(Fly Niki).

According to the BA Press Release referenced in Reply 10, Niki is also joining oneworld. The release says:

"British Airways is sponsoring airberlin’s membership of oneworld, and has just completed a thorough review of airberlin’s processes and procedures. airberlin joins oneworld alongside Austrian airline NIKI, a member of the airberlin group, who together form Europe’s sixth largest carrier."


User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7572 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3159 times:

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 16):
It is not a high crime (although AA seems to refuse to do this at all costs) to codeshare with someone out of your alliance,

AA codeshares with airlines that are not members of oneworld such as AS, B6 and G3 to name a few.



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineORDJOE From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2980 times:

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22):

AA codeshares with airlines that are not members of oneworld such as AS, B6 and G3 to name a few.

They dont seem to want to codeshare with members of other alliances, they worked closely with OZ, Lot, TK LX, Brussles airlines, and EI, but once they joined other alliances the ties were severed (EI and AA were really close, but once EI went on its own AA does not dealings with them anymore.)


User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1259 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2655 times:

Quoting r2rho (Reply 19):
So is AB saying bye-bye to OW even before joining? All its recent moves (the Etihad deal, now AF codeshare) point away from OW, and particularly away from BA / IB, not towards them. I'm getting more and more the impression that AB will be OW only on paper. What is their strategy¿?  

My personal opinion is that OneWorld sooner or later merge with SkyTeam, that's because Star Alliance has become so strong specially in Europe. One World at least in mainland Europe is weak, just BA, Iberia, Finnair, so not a great market share in Central and Eastern Europe and specially not the right alliance for Air Berlin. Now also Malev has gone, so basically Air Berlin replaces Malev 1:1 inside One World. SkyTeam on the other hand cover all the important markets with the big network of AF,KL,AZ,OK.



Fly easyJet
25 Post contains links VV701 : According to Chart 53 here: http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_.../01_ID_2010_Full_presentations.pdf which dates back to May 2010, market shares in
26 LOWS : That will be a bold new world we'd be living in, then. And one that competition authorities, regulators and consumer groups should have a long hard l
27 LJ : Doubtful, AB doesn't have too many flights from France and The Netherlands. Moreover, the idea is to make life for LH difficult. This doesn't mean st
28 MAH4546 : How is the alliance with the largest intra-European market share (once AB joins next week) weak in Europe?
29 Post contains links VV701 : All this talk about AF and EY linking up with AB to fight LH seems a little far fetched to me. What is the source? On Tuesday week, 20 March, AB and H
30 Post contains links LOWS : http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...operation-ft-deutschland-says.html I agree. It seems like a bad and farfetched idea. It's based on EY's recent
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
LH And AF-KL Interested In A380-900 posted Thu Aug 28 2008 11:30:01 by Desediez
SN-SR, AF-KL, & LH-LX Compare And Contrast posted Sun Nov 20 2005 00:24:19 by KWI
After AF/KL And LH/LX When Comes BA/IB? posted Wed Mar 16 2005 01:27:13 by ZRH
DL/NW And Their Partnership With AF/KL At AMS/CDG posted Sat Dec 26 2009 11:40:29 by Gilesdavies
AF-KL And MP Cargo Network Cuts posted Fri Oct 9 2009 11:57:04 by 777way
AF/KL To Start Biometric Check-In And Boarding posted Wed Sep 5 2007 15:47:48 by BuyantUkhaa
AF & KL -Questions And Future Possibilities? posted Sat Apr 14 2007 21:15:09 by AA1818
AF B747-200F And LH Aircraft In Old BKK Airport posted Mon Mar 5 2007 18:14:27 by Thai A330
Who Is Bigger: AF/KL Or LH/LX? posted Wed Apr 13 2005 18:06:56 by Poh2
BA,AF,KL Or LH? posted Sat Jan 3 2004 03:34:17 by KLMCedric