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Eight More DCA Beyond-Perimeter Slots - Pt 3  
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 11000 times:

Since we've reached 200 posts on the previous thread, and we should be starting to see a bunch of new activity in this case shortly, I figured this might be a good time to start a new thread. Here's the link to the previous one:

Eight More DCA Beyond-Perimeter Slots - Pt 2 (by SANFan Feb 27 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Here's a quick recap (disclaimer: MY version) of what's happened so far:
UA has selected DCA-SFO service, to start 5/14/12; DL picked DCA-SLC, beginning 6/07/12; and AA chose DCA-LAX to begin 6/14/12. US has not announced any decision yet. These make up the 4 unlimited-incumbent carrier exemptions for new Beyond-Perimeter routes which may be changed to other destinations at will by these 4 cx.

The 4 limited-incumbent/new carrier awards (aka "8 slots") will be chosen by the DOT, with applications for these 4 additional routes due into the DOT no later than Monday, March 12. Comments and arguments regarding these applications are then due no later than March 27. The DOT will then (quickly) make a decision on who gets what routes.

All actions in this case, to the DOT, and by the DOT, will be available in Docket 29. Here's the link to it:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketD...SR;rpp=25;po=0;D=DOT-OST-2012-0029

It should be getting really interesting very soon -- perhaps today and no later than Monday -- as we see AS, B6, VX, WN and possibly AC, F9, G4, NK, and WS, strategize, jockey for position, and rumble for those 4 very sought-after authorities for new DCA -service.

bb

(mod's, please feel free to lock the previous thread)

[Edited 2012-03-09 08:37:43]

[Edited 2012-03-09 08:39:51]

231 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1390 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 10831 times:

Don't forget the side discussion on the Air21 slots DL used on DCA-JAN - not really related to the Docket 29 out of perimeter slots. This topic is also covered in WN Applies For OKC-DCA (by usflyguy Mar 6 2012 in Civil Aviation) .

With DL cutting back in DCA it dropped this route.

US flies it now on temporary authority and has applied for the slots permanently. F9 has applied for SDF-DCA and WN for DCA-OKC-DAL. These are IN perimeter slots.

Docket: http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketD...ostedDate;po=0;D=DOT-OST-2000-7182 (Sort by date to see the newest filings )


User currently offlinemd3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10360 times:

Well, today's the big day for the proposals, though we might not see any posted filings until tomorrow.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10329 times:

Quoting md3 (Reply 2):
Well, today's the big day for the proposals, though we might not see any posted filings until tomorrow.

Ah, you beat me to it md3.

You're right. The Docket may very well not reflect anything until tomorrow but we should start seeing press releases from individual cx or filing reports via other services, or whatever, but I have a feeling we will somehow see (or hear) some specifics later this afternoon. I plan on monitoring this as much as possible today... (I do hope we can keep track of things in this thread so we don't end up with a bunch of different ones about each carrier's filings.)

  

bb


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 10306 times:

Yes, I'd prefer to see everything in this thread, it makes it much easier and fun for discussions.


AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineSouthernDC9 From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 442 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 10159 times:

So what are people's guesses for the bids/proposals? It's like March Madness, a.net style...

I say AS puts a bird on it to Portland; Virgin A to SFO (which is like a freebie at this point); Jet Blue, I'm going with SAN; F9 to COS, just for a laugh; WN to AUS, just because in their hearts they're so Texas-y; NK to SJU. And Sun Country to Pierre, SD with continuing service to MSP. Keep in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about.



What does AA/US merger mean for CLT/JFK/PHX/North America/Southern Hemisphere/God's Plan for the Universe
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10145 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 5):
Keep in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Well at least that puts you in the same catagory with a lot of us here!  

bb


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3193 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10115 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 5):
WN to AUS, just because in their hearts they're so Texas-y
Although I understand the luv for AUS, IMO SAT-DCA would be a better choice. It connects three larger military bases with the Pentagon.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4280 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10061 times:

According to AS's website, they are applying for DCA-PDX and DCA-SAN. You can sign a petition there supporting AS's effort to get these slot exemptions.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10037 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 8):
According to AS's website, they are applying for DCA-PDX and DCA-SAN. You can sign a petition there supporting AS's effort to get these slot exemptions.

I am on it for PDX, so how can they apply for two exemptions, when I thought 4 slots left would be given to 4 carriers. When is US going to announce their given slot? Where is it on AS's website, I don't see it?

[Edited 2012-03-12 10:17:36]


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User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10027 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 8):
According to AS's website, they are applying for DCA-PDX and DCA-SAN. You can sign a petition there supporting AS's effort to get these slot exemptions.

Link please, Tex'. I can't find that.

How many times do you suppose they'll let me sign that petition????

It's officially afternoon in WAS now so I guess things are starting to dribble in!

  

bb


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 10015 times:

Quoting SouthernDC9 (Reply 5):
I say AS puts a bird on it to Portland; Virgin A to SFO (which is like a freebie at this point); Jet Blue, I'm going with SAN; F9 to COS, just for a laugh; WN to AUS, just because in their hearts they're so Texas-y; NK to SJU. And Sun Country to Pierre, SD with continuing service to MSP. Keep in mind I have no idea what I'm talking about.

I'm sure we'll see multiple destinations bid by many of the cx.

AS has come through just as expected. (YES!) Who's next?

bb


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9994 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
How many times do you suppose they'll let me sign that petition????

Guess we'll be busy today signing the petition, when we can both find it, huh Bob?



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User currently offlineCGKings317 From Canada, joined Nov 2005, 306 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9973 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):

Link here http://www.alaskaair.com/content/dea...CID=Brand_Vanity_||2012FLYDCA_AW||

Things should get interesting about now..

~CGKings317  

[Edited 2012-03-12 10:27:16]


I love ✈ & volcanoes but the 2 of them dont get along, just ask KLM867 & PH-BFC
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 12):
Guess we'll be busy today signing the petition, when we can both find it, huh Bob?

Absolutely, B! They sure have hidden it well...

I'm sure VX will apply for SFO (like everyone else on the planet thinks) but will they also bid for LAX, just in case? (I would like to think that they might even put in for SAN but I know better than that!)

bb


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9957 times:

Quoting CGKings317 (Reply 13):
Link here http://www.alaskaair.com/content/dea...CID=Brand_Vanity_||2012FLYDCA_AW||

Things should get interesting about now..

So I would guess that this means that we officially have AS as going for both PDX and SAN?

and my edit added here.... I think that VX, following its form, will apply to both SFO and LAX.

[Edited 2012-03-12 10:32:19]

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9926 times:

Quoting CGKings317 (Reply 13):
Link here http://www.alaskaair.com/content/dea..._AW||

That's it! Thanx CG'! (I'll be cutting and pasting a lot this week!)

I'm good with calling it for Alaska! SAN and PDX -- nicely done TAAG and good luck! I'm very confident you'll get one of your choices.

bb

[Edited 2012-03-12 10:42:10]

User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9879 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
I'm very confident you'll get one of your choices

If it comes down to only getting one of AS's choices, who decides, AS or the government? Honestly either way, good choices by AS, I'm not surprised SJC is missing.



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User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9855 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 17):
If it comes down to only getting one of AS's choices, who decides, AS or the government? Honestly either way, good choices by AS, I'm not surprised SJC is missing.

The DOT decides which 4 cx get which new route. AS will make its best case in their bids and arguments about the other cx' bids but that's all they can do at this point.

As I've said previously, I too would have been surprised to see a bid for SJC from AS. And I can't really see anyone else applying for that route either. SFO is definitely where the WAS traffic is.

bb


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3372 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 14):
Absolutely, B! They sure have hidden it well...

I've signed both applications, sent the web link to everyone in my address book with important mail delivery, anything else I can do but re-sign for the next few weeks?



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9798 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 16):
I'll be cutting and pasting a lot this week!

Just for you SANFan, I signed the DCA-SAN petition......


 


User currently offlinemd3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9777 times:

Very nice supporting website by AS. I expect the individual letters of support by the public will end up enshrined in the docket folder also.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5472 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9745 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 19):
I've signed both applications, sent the web link to everyone in my address book with important mail delivery, anything else I can do but re-sign for the next few weeks?
Quoting point2point (Reply 20):
Just for you SANFan, I signed the DCA-SAN petition......

Great job fellas. I'm sure AS appreciates it (and so do I!)

I've been monitoring the other cx websites and nothing's shown up yet but that doesn't surprise me. (AS's announcement didn't show up where I was looking either.) This isn't really news -- yet -- so until it shows up on the Docket, we're kind of flying blind here and hoping that someone stumbles on something or hears news somehow.

It's now after 2pm in DC. I'm not sure if there's a, say, 5pm deadline for app's, or midnight?

I wonder what would happen of only 3 airlines bid? Would someone get 2 new routes? (Not that I think that's really going to happen.)

bb


User currently offlinelhpdx From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 412 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9706 times:

I do hope both cities wins!

User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4280 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9697 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 10):
Link please, Tex'. I can't find that.
Quoting CGKings317 (Reply 13):
Link here http://www.alaskaair.com/content/dea..._AW||

Sorry I couldn't respond fast enough--posted as I was heading out the door for work--but glad CGKings317 could!

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 9):
I am on it for PDX, so how can they apply for two exemptions, when I thought 4 slots left would be given to 4 carriers. When is US going to announce their given slot? Where is it on AS's website, I don't see it?

I didn't see anything in the order stating that an airline could only apply for one exemption, which means they should be able to apply for as many of the exemptions as they wanted. That doesn't mean the airline will necessarily receive both exemptions, but in many cases it is worth a shot. It is like the opening of HND to U.S. carriers last year (two years ago?)--DL and HA applied for the majority of the frequencies, just in case.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
25 steex : Definitely. At no point has DOT claimed that it was providing slots to four different carriers, just that they are going to distribute four beyond-pe
26 Post contains links and images point2point : Here is the first line that I've seen of the AS DCA-PDX/SAN filing: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ala...tland-ore-and-san-diego-2012-03-12 and as t
27 Post contains images SANFan : Hey steex, I wondered where you were. Somewhere I remember seeing that the Final Four cx would be eligible for 2 slot exemptions (read: 1 r/t flight
28 SouthernDC9 : In my fantasy world at least one airline will have forgotten about daylight savings time and submit their proposal an hour after the deadline...
29 EA CO AS : Sorry I couldn't say anything about it earlier - had to keep the DCA-SAN portion hush-hush until it was publicly announced!
30 Post contains images SANFan : Oh now, what a rotten attitiude! LOL! I'm sure most of us have someone particular in mind for that scenario... (But come on now, an airline forgettin
31 wedgetail737 : Based on the article, it appears that PDX-DCA has a lot more political backing than SAN-DCA. I'm hoping AS gets at least one, if not both.
32 MAH4546 : DOT would forgive the airline and the application go through. It's happened in the past and will happen again, I'm sure.
33 AS739BSI : KING-TV in Seattle has confirmed that one.
34 MAH4546 : JetBlue has asked for AUS and SJU.
35 steex : I don't think that's the case, and it is not spelled out anywhere in the official establishment order that DOT put out for docket DOT-OST-2012-0029.
36 dolphinflyer : USA Today reports that VX has applied for double-daily SFO-DCA slots. Seems they're putting all their eggs in the SFO basket.
37 mercure1 : JetBlue proposed schedule. DCA-SJU 1000-1355 A320 SJU-DCA 1105 1505 A320 DCA-AUS 1340-1600 E190 AUS-DCA 0830-1255 E190
38 MAH4546 : Frontier will apply for COS with "single-plane service" to SAN.[Edited 2012-03-12 14:33:30]
39 DCAYOW : Wow- Air Canada has filed for DCA-YVR
40 mercure1 : Air Canada proposed schedule. YVR-DCA 1335-2135 A319 DCA-YVR 0700-0945 A319 Times for beyond Pacific connetions
41 mercure1 : Virgin American proposed schedule: SFO-DCA 0905-1710 A319 SFO-DCA 1335-2140 A319 DCA-SFO 0825-1105 A319 DCA-SFO 1815-2055 A319
42 mercure1 : Frontier plan: SAN-COS 0720-1032 A320 COS-DCA 1117-1636 A320 DCA-COS 1721-1914 A320 COS-SAN 1959-2112 A320
43 MAH4546 : Southwest is in for once daily SAN-AUS-DCA.
44 redzeppelin : That makes two bids for AUS. Is there no love for SAT? I thought they had a good case. Does anybody really think that the one-stop services to SAN no
45 steex : They could only if DOT has more than four cities they were interested in giving new service - in that case, they could take the position that WN is s
46 Atrude777 : So to Summarize it into One post for those easy to Read... We have.. Virgin America-Double Daily DCA-SFO Air Canada-Single Daily DCA-YVR Southwest Air
47 FlyASAGuy2005 : Question. Why has US been so mum on the whole deal? Perhaps they were waiting to see how many would apply for SAN? That seemed like a no brainer to me
48 DCAYOW : Alaska's application for SAN-DCA (continues to HNL).
49 GentFromAlaska : I do: Headquarters NORAD is located at Peterson AFB, Colorado Springs, Colorado. NORAD command and control is exercised at/through the Cheyenne Mount
50 mercure1 : Southwest proposed: SAN-AUS 0720-1210 B738 AUS-DCA 1250-1700 B738 DCA-AUS 1740-1955 B738 AUS-SAN 2030-2125 B738
51 md3 : Wow, very interesting. Like the other proposed tag-on's it's not very relevant to the bid, but where are you reading this? That kinda goes for all th
52 mercure1 : Alaska proposal: PDX-DCA 1010-1810 B738 DCA-PDX 1725-2025 B738 SAN-DCA 0610-1510 B738 DCA-SAN 1610-1855 B738
53 DCAYOW : Correction to these timings: Read down HNL 21:35 SAN 06:10 SAN 07:10 DCA 15:10 DCA 16:10 SAN 18:55 SAN 20:25 HNL 23:30
54 mercure1 : Sun Country also applied. Suggest at Las Vegas service. DCA-LAS 1115 1309 B737 LAS-DCA 1115-1839 B737
55 Post contains images point2point : From what's in at this time........ And thinking that the DOT is going to be placing a priority on making sure that some of the bigger markets, that c
56 MAH4546 : US is not competing. It has been awarded one slot pair and can do whatever route it chooses.
57 HPRamper : Also Fort Carson, one of the busier Army bases in the country. COS has a larger military/government presence than many here give credit for. This pro
58 HiFlyerAS : WTF? Why would they do this? What a waste of time.....
59 SANFan : Just got back from a couple hours of absence and wow! A lot to digest (along with lunch/dinner) and I also have a bit of research to do but I have a f
60 md3 : True, but a DEN proposal would have had no chance right out of the gate, and why F9 didn't bother putting together an application for a fourth DEN ex
61 threeifbyair : Interesting that AS is not turning the same plane. If this schedule holds, the routing would presumably SEA-DCA-PDX and PDX-DCA-SEA. The LAX flight a
62 GentFromAlaska : Your statement by itself is factual. With that said the federal General Services Administration (GSA) who manages the federal city pairs contract awa
63 mariner : Wow, spit that dummy. Frontier is doing what is right for Frontier and given the applications for DCA-SAN that are already in, Frontier would have no
64 RWA380 : Should AS get both it's requests, and I expect they'll get one for sure, but after seeing the other SAN 1 stop options, I'm more inclined to say I th
65 GentFromAlaska : Keeping politics out of the equation. Having wiggled my big toe in the world of government contracting. I offer that F9 or any other LCC should have
66 slcdeltarumd11 : Personally I think COS has a much better chance than people realize. I really hope Frontier has a shot at this but I'm biased I think they picked SAN
67 SANFan : I personally consider those SAN tag-ons by F9 and WN to be a slap in the face to SAN. And I'm not surpised to see it from Frontier but I am quite dis
68 mariner : I see absolutely no point in Frontier applying for an exemption it would not get. How that is "a slap in the face" is beyond me. Frontier does not fl
69 md3 : To reinforce that point, any of these tag-on segments are not subject to the same rules as the nonstop service, even though the carriers are throwing
70 gigneil : I owe whoever bet on COS-DCA before now a beer. Hell, I'll buy you an entire keg. Because this never in a million years was possible in my mind. NS
71 kgaiflyer : I don't know if this is wise -- it's a doppelganger of Aloha's old DCA-SNA-HNL application. Aloha didn't get it.
72 gigneil : Also, I maintain that COS-DCA is a nonstarter. It doesn't exist today, and F9 doesn't have a GSA agreement to fly it. Chicken meets egg. They can't de
73 drerx7 : I don't see how its a slap in the face - even though SAN sends a lot of pax to the DC area daily, WN can really fill up the bird in AUS with more fee
74 md3 : That was DCA-SNA though. A very different route than DCA-SAN, the largest unserved market from DCA.
75 gigneil : At this point, the "politicians" per se really won't get to weigh in much outside of a phone call suggesting it. The DOT is fortunately squarely in th
76 Post contains images mariner : Sadly, I don't think beer, but thanks for the thought. You also said you would be "angry" if Frontier got another exemption, which doesn't sound all
77 dolphinflyer : Am surprised that WN didn't apply for both DCA-AUS and DCA-SAT. They would likely wind up winning at least one of those routes. Not clear why they opt
78 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Based on the article, it's clear that AS wants DCA-PDX more than DCA-SAN. Not that SAN isn't a great market (or they wouldn't apply) but it's basical
79 Post contains images SANFan : Are you SURE about that, md'? I don't remember seeing anything mentioned about that (one way or the other) in the rules but you're sure that the DOT
80 GentFromAlaska : Copied from the FAA pdf document. For clarification 16 slots are available. The later 8 non-limited slots in my mind are best understood as swaps. "Se
81 mariner : The DOT has always been interested in connectivity for these flights. It is why Frontier has 3 x DCA-DEN exemptions - the connection possibilities at
82 DeltAirlines : For the purposes of this exercise, the non-limited incumbents are US, UA, DL and AA. Limited incumbents are other airlines serving DCA that aren't th
83 Post contains links md3 : Admittedly, I don't see any language laying it out, but I'm basing the statement off the old AS ANC-SEA-DCA award from 2001. The ANC 1-stop "direct"
84 D L X : I seem to think the DOT is interested in connectivity when the second city is underserved, or lacks competition. There are PLENTY of one-stop ways to
85 Post contains images point2point : So here we are getting late now, in the day that the applications were to be in, and I would guess here that this is probably going to be what is ther
86 mariner : I don't know if it is "important" but I think it sure helps, and may - may - eventually change the nature of the operation at COS. But being a purist
87 Post contains links SANFan : From what I've (briefly read so far) I get that impression as well. But, as I try to adjust to the rules as they are now being interpreted (e.g., mul
88 Post contains links md3 : A little twist on the jetBlue application: Their complete, and VERY detailed application is here: http://airlineinfo.com/ostpdf83/831.pdf
89 mariner : Are many of them same-plane? I only know what I said - that the connections available at DEN, to served and unserved cities, were a major reason Fron
90 kgaiflyer : But . . . using that logic, then AS doing DCA-SAN-HNL makes more sense than F9 doing DCA-COS-SAN, yes ?
91 Post contains images SANFan : I'm again confused. How can SAN get two of the four? Only 1 carrier applied - AS! IF AS did get SAN, US could also elect to serve the route but that'
92 mariner : IF Southwest and Frontier had applied for non-stops as well as Alaska that would have been three. And - I believe - two of them would miss out, becaus
93 Post contains images point2point : .... and I must say SANFan, you were gone for a couple of hours????? What shape is this world in today with that revelation....... goodness gracious.
94 Post contains images capitalflyer : Its gonna be SAN, SJU, YVR, and SFO. Why? SAN (AS) - Military SJU (B6) - Come on, its Puerto Rico YVR (AC) - Why would DOT have invited Air Canada to
95 AltairF28 : Maybe they think US is going to give back their DCA-LAS slot. If they do that SY are almost guaranteed to get it. As an aside, if that does happen do
96 Post contains images SANFan : Yeah, my doctor just doesn't give a da^^ if SAN gets a flight to DCA or not! Can you believe that? Under your circumstances as presented, IMHO, VX wo
97 JetBlueGuy2006 : I am a bit confused by SY's application. They just got done with the DOT with regards to the Republic slots; and now they applying for LAS? I guess it
98 Post contains links md3 : This should provide enough reading material until they are all posted in the docket folder tomorrow. AS's application AC's application F9's applicatio
99 Post contains images seabosdca : I just absolutely cannot imagine any way in which any of these slots will go to a place without Congressional representation. Is DOT really that will
100 SANFan : Why would you say this? What makes you think US would give up their Vegas slot? Vegas does have a lot of traffic to WAS (~ 1000 pdew) so it doesn't s
101 SANFan : I really don't think AC and YVR will get much consideration in the hearings. Canada was invited to participate so what the heck. (Maybe it's one of t
102 steex : I think you're looking at this too emotionally! These are business decisions and the airport doesn't have the ability to feel flattered or slighted.
103 capitalflyer : What's the deal with US? Guess they are going the limit huh? ...behind a login. Can't access unless you are a member. I am too lazy to sign up. All I
104 gigneil : I'll admit to having strong feelings. Frontier is barely staying in business. These routes are rare. They need to be given to carriers that best serv
105 Post contains images AltairF28 : I didn't say that I thought that....just that they might . Agree with you that I would have expected Spirit to ask for it before Sun Country.
106 mariner : There's nothing I can say to anything that emotive. I'm certainly not going to waste time defending that which I don't think needs defending and you
107 gigneil : Let's take emotion totally out of it, Mariner. I'd like to hear the good case you think they laid out. I've seen the PDEW numbers. As I am sure you're
108 PlanesNTrains : Absolutely. I hope it works out for them. Absolutely. Unimpressive to SAN perhaps, but the applications themselves seem logical. Interesting. It is v
109 gigneil : VX is far more fiscally solvent and applied for seats between the two largest remaining markets. Not COS. NS
110 GentFromAlaska : The ANC-SEA-DCA route had a lot of political push from Senator Ted Stevens who lived in Girdwood, Alaska; located some forty five miles south of ANC.
111 Post contains images mariner : I don't see how we can. You made your position clear from the git-go - you would be "angry" if Frontier got another exemption. You didn't limit it. I
112 mercure1 : Alaska clearly says that Portland is their priority route: From their application: "PORTLAND-DCA NONSTOP SERVICE—ALASKA’S NUMBER ONE PRIORITY AND
113 Post contains links PlanesNTrains : I wasn't debating the city-pairs. From USA TOday: http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/s...o-make-flying-fun-again/51441460/1 "Since it started flying
114 Post contains images gigneil : If I were president, I'd go to war against it immediately. Its far more dangerous than Iran. We''ll see how it all turns out. NS
115 Post contains images mariner : Oh, I dunno. I haven't been there in yonks but I always had a good time in Colorado Springs. Surely, I got laid there more often that I did in Lawren
116 wedgetail737 : Kind of off the subject. In light of all the beyond-perimeter service, why is there a lack of redeyes to DCA?
117 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Pretty much eliminates any ambiguity about their desires. -Dave
118 gigneil : Its very challenging to arrive in DC before 0630. NS
119 DeltAirlines : My guess is they wanted to wait to see what cards were laid on the table today. Delta was definitely going to use their added slot to SLC, AA was def
120 bos2laf : Did I miss something, or did you mean AC?
121 slcdeltarumd11 : I think it's quite clear SAN is Alaskas we will fly either and are throwing in a second city to ensure we get one route. They clearly would prefer PDX
122 MAH4546 : No, it's not. JetBlue has asked that if it's awarded only one slot pair, that it be awarded SJU.
123 RWA380 : Your partly right, AS will get both SAN & PDX which is their first priority, PDX provides many connections on the AS/QX system, and is the second
124 slcdeltarumd11 : Personally I can't imagine YVR having a chance. Do people see a Canadian city winning a slot? I think there are enough good proposals to domestic citi
125 md3 : Sorry, forgot about that, though it is a quick, free signup. They should all be uploaded to the docket folder today.
126 GentFromAlaska : I'm going back a few years. DCA use to close at 11:00 PM for noise abatement. This may have changed over the years. Yet AS could have started PDX-BWI
127 seabosdca : I think this is risky for B6, again because Puerto Rico doesn't have voting congressional representation. I think it increases the likelihood that B6
128 steex : I don't think that's really valid, though, as clearly BWI (or IAD) is not the same as DCA. Using your argument would work against every application e
129 mikefrommke : I don't know if VX is the best example you could have used. Anyway, here is my guess: B6 to SJU WN to AUS (cont. to SAN) AS to PDX Then I think its a
130 D L X : Yeah, but if you want Washington and can't have DCA, it is illogical that you just wouldn't fly to Washington at all when IAD and even BWI make for e
131 steex : Fair enough - and I apologize to GentFromAlaska if I'm reading too much into his statement. I guess I was just automatically dismissing their stateme
132 threeifbyair : AS has a few new 738s coming this year - I forget the exact number. PHL will consume one frame, but I don't think the others are spoken for yet. One
133 D L X : Sure, but again, if they can't have DCA, would those customers choose not to go if the only options were to IAD? There are currently NO nonstops from
134 seabosdca : Ugh. Writing too fast. I meant "DCA." Sorry for the confusion...
135 steex : Not to further the tangent, but no, AS is not a low-fare airline. They have a relatively favorable cost structure that makes some routes sustainable
136 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : It's interesting that UA doesn't fly PDX-IAD. You'd think Portlanders would fly the hypothetical nonstop to IAD if United were to fly it. Just having
137 GentFromAlaska : Only as urgency goes as stated in their application. In my mind this takes on the ready-fire-aim mentality. Exactly. I'm not so sure about that. I wo
138 md3 : Wait, what? United does fly IAD-PDX. UA 251/250 with varying a319/a320/757.
139 Post contains links md3 : All of yesterdays filings are now available w/o signup at regulations.gov
140 GentFromAlaska : Not wanting to get to far off topic I'll second that. Some three weeks ago Travelocity.com emailed me a fare special between JNU (Juneau) and SEA for
141 ScottB : Canadian carriers (not just AC) were invited to apply, but the statutory criterion of "provid[ing] air transportation with domestic network benefits
142 D L X : I stand corrected! Don't know why it didn't show up in Kayak.
143 Post contains images point2point : Just to summarize the DCA exemptions now what we have here is: the four legacies UA - daily SFO - will get this AA - daily LAX - will get this DL - d
144 Post contains images mercure1 : Where do you get WestJet from
145 Post contains images point2point : Oooooops, sorry, and I fixed it. I seem to think YVR and WS, even though I know that AC is pretty much YVR as well. Thanks for pointing this out to m
146 seabosdca : I'd give the last pair to VX for 1x SFO first. 2x SFO (UA + VX) makes a lot more sense than 3x SAN (AS + WN + F9), one of them 1-stop through COS, wh
147 point2point : Maybe...... I'm thinking though would it be worth it for VX just to have one daily flight into DCA, and then my thinking is that probably yes, it wou
148 Longhornmaniac : Hmm, I am surprised that SAT wasn't even applied for. Nevertheless, AUS looks to be in good shape, though unfortunately I think WN will wind up winnin
149 SHUPirate1 : I wonder if US Airways is going to go for something completely off the deep end, like, for example, Aruba...
150 redzeppelin : My argument against COS is the fact that nobody applied for SAT. The arguments in favor of COS mostly focus on the military connections (NORAD and USA
151 Post contains images point2point : Hmmmmm? I guess that I can only ask why should COS (or any other destination that's now been applied for) be penalized (or even favored) just because
152 SANFan : I agree with you that SAT being snubbed comes as a big surprise but SJC and SMF have (relatively) very little traffic to WAS so I would have been sur
153 redzeppelin : Sorry. I was thinking out loud and didn't explain very well. What I really meant was not that any city should be penalized or favored by DOT, but tha
154 SANFan : I'd like to add a few thoughts about the “military” factor in these discussions (and hearings.) I’ll admit that I’ve used the “Navy card”
155 Post contains images point2point : Okay, ty, a better explanation given I have to say here. And with that, I would have to say again, both the AS routes to PDX and SAN, as well as the
156 Post contains images mariner : I think would be a pretty good starting point. I don't know why no one applied for SAT-DCA, but I assume they all have other priorities. I wa mildly
157 PlanesNTrains : Well, that would make sense. I was surprised to hear UA had no IAD-PDX. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that SAN woul
158 GentFromAlaska : Actually Northern Command is the most significant of the three and appears to be forgot about. NORCOM is a command and control center. The USAF Acade
159 D L X : Honest question: If the military had such a need to fly people from one fixed location to another, why don't they use their own planes? In other words
160 RWA380 : AS has flown to IAD in the past. And they pulled out, probably because it was not performing like AS would have liked. On AS website, they clearly li
161 seabosdca : They can't compete with civilian carriers already operating fixed route networks on price. Civilian aircraft are cheaper to operate to begin with, an
162 SANFan : So my expressing my opinions is to you "negativity". And I thought that was called "disagreement" but I guess if my opinion and yours don't agree, th
163 slcdeltarumd11 : COS traffic to DC is only a handful a day probably to norad usafa or fort carson. The big numbers and more importantly short term tickets would come f
164 GentFromAlaska : If memory serve me AS flew to IAD until they got their first SEA-DCA or the second LAX-SEA slot in or about 2001-2002. Not too long thereafter they k
165 RWA380 : Didn't another carrier make COS a hub and that failed, Western Pacific? Why do you think COS would work now vs then?
166 mariner : Don't include anything for my benefit. I am totally sympathetic to the idea of SAN having non-stop service to DCA, I think it is extremely desirable.
167 GentFromAlaska : Additionally military aircraft breaks often. The delays can be horrendous hours if not days. These sort of delays tend to be a spoiler. Keep in mind
168 Post contains images RWA380 : That's right, look at my posts, PDX rules!!!
169 Post contains images mariner : LOL - you were one of the people I had in mind when I wrote that. I read your post #123 - then checked your profile. mariner
170 Post contains links threeifbyair : AS never intended to fly to IAD, but after 9/11 DCA was closed for a few months and AS redirected its SEA-DCA flight to IAD. When DCA reopened, the I
171 smoot4208 : Back in the original perimeter slots, US applied for DCA-SFO and DCA-SJU
172 slcdeltarumd11 : COS can be a focus city not a hub. Western pacific moved everything out of denver out of desperation to make any typeof money they were already in tro
173 steex : Fair enough, I see that they do list themselves as a "major, low-fare carrier" in their company fact sheet. However, they absolutely do not behave li
174 point2point : Taking this just a bit off topic for the thread here, but...... AS likes to have it both ways, eh?
175 steex : I can see both sides of the issue regarding potential COS service. If I were DOT, I think the issue I'd most be wrestling with is how much success F9
176 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Well, Western Pacific actually started in COS and then moved everything out of there to DEN out of desperation. -Dave
177 mariner : That was part of Western Pacific's problem - it tried to create a hub at COS and it was unsustainable. But most of its problems were very little to d
178 GentFromAlaska : Boy did he!. I was somewhat disappointed WestPac failed . Under the proposed merger, the combined airline had announced its intent to serve JNU. In a
179 gigneil : Stand back. I am going to say something positive. Western Pacific was doing quite well, actually. It was after Ed Beauvais stepped aside and the rema
180 HPRamper : So now should we surmise US will wait until the DOT makes its decision on who gets what, before making their own announcement? Two more weeks!?
181 slcdeltarumd11 : oops i always thought they did the opposite. I only flew western pacific once and was into COS i thought it was at the end of them i guess i had it r
182 Post contains images mariner : I think it is a clever move by US - it's in the catbird seat, knowing lie of the land, what the other airlines want, and can probably make reasonably
183 slcdeltarumd11 : LOL yeah US flying to COS would be hard to imagine. They could surprise alot of people and pick SAT still, totally unlikely but it would surprise alm
184 HPRamper : US picking DCA-SAT would not surprise me a bit, especially as there has not been a competing proposal on the route. US is clearly looking for that mo
185 GentFromAlaska : Is US even elgible to compete with F9 and WN under the new entrant/limited incumbant criteria. I would think US meets the non-limited criteria. As su
186 washingtonian : What concourse did they use at IAD?
187 usflyguy : Why would that be a stab in the eye of WN and F9? They are bidding for AUS and COS, respectively. AS is bidding for DCA-SAN non-stop. Seems that woul
188 SouthernDC9 : Yeah, US has to give up a DCA-hub slot I think for the outside-the-perimeter slot they were given as a legacy carrier. We're just all on the edge of
189 steex : They wouldn't really have to surrender a CLT-DCA slot, though. As a technicality, they need to designate a slot pair to a within-perimeter large hub
190 D L X : Does it have to be DCA-? If I recall, the DOT's definition of a hub is not what we normally call it. As in, we know US's in-perimeter hubs to be CLT
191 kgaiflyer : Concourse 'D'. They shared a gate with (then named) BWIA Airlines.
192 Mikey711MN : As shown above, both WN and F9 filings are one-stop service to SAN... These two filings would be far less likely to come to fruition compared to a no
193 dolphinflyer : US Airways selecting DCA-SAT would make a lot of sense, strategically, based on both the local O&D demand (140+ PPDEW) as well as the beyond conn
194 seabosdca : If rumors are to be believed, it would only be logical for US to begin LAX.
195 SANFan : The US question continues to haunt me. I 'm not sure there is any sort of deadline for them except maybe 90 days from the signing of the bill (which
196 Post contains images GentFromAlaska : I stand corrected. Thanks for keeping me in I was thinking AS flew SEA-IAD before day 9/11/2001
197 HPRamper : Mikey711MN answers this one for me. I personally expect AS to win DCA-PDX and not SAN - I also don't think US would propose SAN if AS DID win the rou
198 Post contains images SANFan : Unless we believe the OTHER long-running rumors that US's natural choice would probably be SFO. But that of course would be affected by what the DOT
199 GentFromAlaska : I wasn't sure if PHL was still a hub for US after CLT was stood-up. Interesting in that the language mentions a between DCA and a inter-perimeter hub
200 steex : The FAA definition of a large hub airport is any airport that sees greater than 1% of the total annual passenger boardings in the nation . FAA is loo
201 steex : Based on the FAA's latest figures, the following is a complete list of airports classified as a "large hub." ATL, BOS, CLT, DCA, DEN, DFW, DTW, EWR,
202 Post contains images md3 : Here is the official display of hubs by the DOT. So per the original order (bolding mine): US will be limited to the following potential trade-ins, cu
203 PlanesNTrains : Were I US, I think I'd decide who's party I wanted to crash the most - and then announce it. For example, if as a member of STAR they wanted to play
204 SHUPirate1 : I suppose US could also go with San Juan and kneecap both of jetBlue's applications in doing so.
205 Post contains images SANFan : Great post Planes'. The key to your statement is "a" frequency, but again, probably not BOTH that Virgin has asked for... Certainly possible.... I'm
206 RWA380 : Well put, I'm very glad you said this, I don't want to wade too deep in this pool, but I do agree 100% with you here, Thanks!
207 FLYjoe : So WN and F9 can say their going to offer direct service to SAN to help bolster their bid In the end, should they be awarded service, they wouldn't b
208 mariner : I'm not sure why you would regret saying it - LOL - it's what I've been trying to tell you all along. That the Southwest and Frontier applications ar
209 dominicl316 : Is this the first ever DCA-SJU service? I know someone who said that United or US Airways used to have nonstop service from DCA to SJU, but UA doesn't
210 steex : You're essentially correct - and it's worth noting that AS similarly proposed DCA-SAN-HNL with their secondary request and B6 proposed DCA-SJU-STT wi
211 Post contains images SANFan : Yes, that is the way I understand it. I simply don't think the DOT cares about, or will pay much attention to tag-ons listed in the applications. Thi
212 Post contains images mariner : You may be right, it may prove useless. But better Frontier applies for something which is within its model than apply for something outside its mode
213 Post contains images GentFromAlaska : What I find interesting about WN application for the DCA slot exemption, an airport which they do not currently offer regulary scheduled service too.
214 Post contains images SANFan : Yes, there are many examples of "proposed" or "suggested" connectability in these app's that are, well, ridiculous. There are really no connections a
215 mariner : That was dealt with in the Frontier application - maybe you missed that bit? mariner
216 SANFan : You mean: And: Yes. "Examine schedule adjustments." Interesting way of phrasing it. And as steex said earlier: bb
217 Post contains images mariner : Yes, exactly that. It takes a fairly minimal time change to make a couple of the connections work. The other two require a bit more work, but there's
218 RWA380 : And all of the above cities have a DCA non-stop, well not PDX, yet! Why would a connection to these places be of any consequence considering there ar
219 md3 : It would be insignificant to the public beyond COS O/D traffic. Domestic network benefits should score very few points with the DOT with this proposa
220 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : True, but AirTran has flights to DCA, correct? At the moment, I think it's DCA-ATL/MCO/MKE/RSW. Clearly they will - as a combined entity - have more
221 mariner : In the lasr round of these, Frontier got two beyond perimeter exemptions (in addition to the one it already held), in part because of the connection
222 Post contains images md3 : They sure did. I'm missing the connection here. No pun intended
223 PlanesNTrains : I'm guessing that the implication is that if F9 offers "connections" to beyond-COS destinations, and (for example) B6 to Austin does not, the COS app
224 Post contains images mariner : I like the pun. I assumed that by"network benefits" you meant connection possibilities? If not, my bad. mariner
225 Post contains images md3 : It was, and thanks , but what how would the DEN successes of the past provide any help to this COS bid? The DEN bids of the past were perfect for wha
226 GentFromAlaska : Each of the applications are user name and password protected. is there a secret or is there another entry point to read the applications?. Thanks In
227 mariner : I don't know if - or how much - they would. I was querying what I thought you were saying. I don't think that's difficult at all. The question is whe
228 md3 : Sorry that was my mistake, it is by registration only. But they are all now available publicly in the docket folder link in post #1. You'll just have
229 StarshipSAN : Did anybody else notice this in the WN application? This isn't two meaning one takeoff slot and one landing slot, since eight full slot pair exemption
230 steex : That's mostly my playing devil's advocate. I think there is a case to be made for COS (and certainly that COS was the best choice of application for
231 Post contains links SANFan : I think it’s time to open a new thread. Please go here to continue the discussions: Eight More DCA Beyond-Perimeter Slots - Pt 4 (by SANFan Mar 14 2
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