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Could HA Compete In The US/AuNZ Market?  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4184 times:

HNL has the geographic advantage of lying approximately on the great circle route between most West Coast US-Australia/NZ routes.

HA could take advantage of this by offering service from several US cities to several Australian and New Zealand cities. I could see HA in Australia/NZ offering service to AKL, CHC, SYD, MEL, and BNE. Maybe ADL. And in the the US they have quite an array of cities.

Could they enter the US-Australia market with HNL as a central connector? They won't be able to compete with the non-stops from LAX, SFO, and HOU, but those all go to SYD and AKL, except for LAX, which serves MEL. But otherwise, if a customer in LAS wants to go to BNE, he can do so in one stop (it would take two now). A customer in LAX could enjoy one-stop service to BNE and CHC. And customers in HA's other markets like SEA, SAN, and PHX could enjoy one-stop service to any city in the Eastern Australia/NZ zone, which would be competitive with one-stop service to SYD, AKL, and MEL and superior to two-stop service to BNE and CHC.

At this point, HA only offers one flight to SYD and it leaves ten minutes before any of the mainland services arrive. I wonder why they haven't coordinated that better.

Also, the one drawback would be that the stop would come in the middle of the journey. HA would have to operate daylight flights, or passengers would have to be OK with waking up for a transfer at midnight. That said, changing planes in HNL is usually more pleasant than changing planes at LAX or SYD. And many passengers would not mind stretching their legs about halfway through the journey.

What are your thoughts?

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineA330NZ From New Zealand, joined exactly 4 years ago today! , 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

I've only ever flown into the US once, so I'm not entirely sure about this, but wouldn't a domestic to international connection be a bit messy? I know that here in New Zealand, if you're connecting through AKL, you need to get off your plane, out of the airport, change terminals and go through immigration before you can get onto your connecting flight. This often takes more than an hour, and the US is more security conscious and this process would take longer in HNL than AKL. I get your point about smaller cities, but if someone wanted to go from MEL to SFO, it would be much easier connecting an AKL with a couple of hours and no change of terminal

User currently offlineJQflightie From Australia, joined Mar 2009, 1010 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4127 times:

You will find that when HA changes to A330 on SYD-HNL, they have said that it will provide a easy and smooth transfer onto the HNL-JFK flight, watch this space.
HNL is a easy airport to trasfer through, ive done it before and it was fine  



Next Trip: PER-DPS-KUL-BKK-HKT-CNX-BKK-SIN-PER
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1728 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

HA probably discover it would be chasing bottom of the barrel yield passengers the same manner Air Tahiti Nui and Air Pacific have done.
HA likely makes more money separately selling US-Hawaii tickets and Hawaii-SYD tickets than trying to tie them together.

Another point of fact is HA's Australia services are skewed to Australia point of sale with Aussies looking at Hawaii for vacations which are rather affordable due to the exchange rate, not so much US headed south.

Oh another detail.. SYD has a curfew which somewhat limits the flights scheduling window...


User currently offlineQFVHOQA From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 504 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

I think HA sees more growth in O&D instead of connecting traffic. And since most people these days are used to non-stop transpacific flights, they could only compete on price.

Add to that the large increase seats between AU-US in recent years, another carrier would just lower yields even further.


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 3034 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

I can see HA in SYD (current), AKL and BNE or MEL at most in the next decade, but thats even being quite optimistic.

The success on HNL-Australia traffic relies on a high AUD, and if that falls, the attractivess of Hawaii as a destination will drop.


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2089 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3873 times:

Even if AKL/BNE/MEL-HNL were to commence, my bet would be these flights would be suspended once the A$ falls and HA would just keep SYD.

As for SYD-mainland USA connection traffic- why do you think HA isn't actively chasing this? Fares do exist, but they're not that attractive compared to QF/UA/DL/VA non-stops. And HA was on the scene before DL/VA so of course they see a market that isn't worth aggressively persuing.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1656 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Continental did that in the old days and never made any money...

They had flights SYD-HNL-DEN-LGW and MEL-AKL-HNL-LAX/SFO/YVR never made a dime


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3460 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3641 times:

Yeah Aust Hawaii flights are low yield tourist travellers, and HNL now has competition again, when HA did SYD with DC-8's in the 80's I don't think they chased mainland to Australia travellers either. At one time HNL was the gateway to Australia, out of necessity. But all those airlines are now going non-stop from LA or SF, those that are still around, even NW's short foray into the Australian market was n/s from LAX on 744's, instead of offering a MSP-HNL-SYD or DTW-HNL-SYD flight when NW was still a bigger player at HNL with flights to LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX, MSP & DTW, plus all their Japan flights including the multiple dalies to NRT.

I think the OP has a good idea, offering multiple Australian and New Zealand cities, but I think if HA even went further and included CGK, SIN, PER, BKK and used HNL as a connection point from an increasing number of US and Canadian cities, I could see potential. Europe would be included as well, according to past HA statements, flying LHR-HNL-AKL for example. The arrival of the 350's should see another interesting growth expansion for HA.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3606 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
At this point, HA only offers one flight to SYD and it leaves ten minutes before any of the mainland services arrive. I wonder why they haven't coordinated that better.

That's due to the curfew at SYD, and the need for the plane to be serviced & re-boarded for the return to HNL with ample leeway in case of a maintenance delay. If the HNL-SYD flight left any later, they wouldn't be able to make it out of SYD before the curfew.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3418 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):

Yeah Aust Hawaii flights are low yield tourist travellers,

No, they are not. Pax flying to HI are high-yield tourist passengers with a smattering of business.

I'm here to tell ya, folks, HI ain't cheap and nor are the tickets to get there.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
At this point, HA only offers one flight to SYD and it leaves ten minutes before any of the mainland services arrive. I wonder why they haven't coordinated that better.

That's a good indication that they don't really want the mainland connections, probably because they can generate much more revenue by selling the seats to separate passengers in the mainland-Hawaii and Hawaii-Australia markets. Compare the sum of those two average fares with the fares they'd have to offer on the connecting through services you are suggesting.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):

Yeah Aust Hawaii flights are low yield tourist travellers,

No, they are not. Pax flying to HI are high-yield tourist passengers with a smattering of business.

I'm here to tell ya, folks, HI ain't cheap and nor are the tickets to get there.

But it's still a leisure market with little premium class traffic, and a high percentage of passengers who are filling the F and J class seats are redeeming frequent flyer miles.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20355 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3284 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
But it's still a leisure market with little premium class traffic, and a high percentage of passengers who are filling the F and J class seats are redeeming frequent flyer miles.

Do you have numbers to show that?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
But it's still a leisure market with little premium class traffic, and a high percentage of passengers who are filling the F and J class seats are redeeming frequent flyer miles.

Do you have numbers to show that?

No data but the fact that U.S. carriers serving Hawaii generally do not use aircraft with their best premium class products is a good indication that it's not one of their prime F and J class markets.


User currently offlineeaglefarm4 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

HA CEO advised about 5 weeks ago that a 2nd Aussie port will be added IF the SYD 330 services go well.Sydney of course goes to 332 services from May and will add a extra 30-40 seats a flight.

Having a look at the BITRE pax figures for December when VC were operating out of BNE and MEL from mid Dec pax figures total were slightly better for BNE (1,899) over MEL(1,705) and also due to shorter flying time (saving of fuel ) i feel BNE would offer the better possibility, and also offer connections to MEL with VA.


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1728 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

Hawaii is definitely a heavy leisure market. This should not even be a discussion.

Per Hawaii visitors bureau annual report informs that 88% of visitors to island are clearly leisure. Even the meeting/convention business, along with school and sports will virtually all be on discount economy fares. Add those in we are up to 95% leisure. Of the remaining other business and government(military) how many do you think purchase F class tickets? Not many I would venture.

Breakdown of air arrivals as follows:

General Vacation - 72.8%
Visiting friends/family - 9.8%
Wedding/honeymoon - 4.7%
Meeting/Convention - 5.7%
Other Business - 3.4%
School / Sports - 1.8%
Government - 1.5%

Also look at airline also that service the islands. Many have configurations that are heavy in economy class, with token premium class seats.

Regarding frequent flyer awards - Per UA, their number redemption request destination is Hawaii !


User currently offlinepenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Wouldn't HA need 2 aircraft to provide daily service between HNL to Australia markets. Otherwise it is a 3x a week service? It's just a bit too far to have one airframe do a daily roundtrip.

User currently offlineNZ2 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2007, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I'm here to tell ya, folks, HI ain't cheap and nor are the tickets to get there.

Agree that the tickets are not cheap, they are over priced in fact esp from NZL with little competition. However once there, it is a cheap destination even staying in upmarket places. My wife and I have been there 3 times in last 5 years and go to outer islands which is even cheaper, but love Waikiki. Stayed at Moana Surfrider last time for about $200 a night, rented a car to go to the north shore for $50, cheaper than holidaying in NZL!

We do use our points to upgrade as the Y price is about $2000 rtn and Biz is about $6000, using points is the only sensible way to go on this sector though not sure how we will get on next time with the auction......not looking forward to that so might be time to search for alternatives


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 8):
Yeah Aust Hawaii flights are low yield tourist travellers, and HNL now has competition again
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
No, they are not. Pax flying to HI are high-yield tourist passengers with a smattering of business

JFK and Sydney are equidistant from Honolulu (5066 miles v 4983 miles) and both will be operated by A330 aircraft.

Here are the cheapest regular (non-sale) published fare levels on Hawaiian:

Economy Class
SYD $1683 return
JFK $661 return

First Class (marketed as Business to Sydney)
SYD $4925 return
JFK $2382 return

I do not for a second dispute that most of the passengers are leisure travellers.

But it is a simple matter of fact that Hawaiian's yields to Australia are more than double those to any of their US mainland markets.

In fact, Hawaiian sells Economy tickets to Australia for fare levels 2/3 as high as First Class on similar sector lengths within the USA!


User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4287 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2659 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
HA could take advantage of this by offering service from several US cities to several Australian and New Zealand cities. I could see HA in Australia/NZ offering service to AKL, CHC, SYD, MEL, and BNE. Maybe ADL. And in the the US they have quite an array of cities.

Hey Doc, I think your idea makes sense for some of the cities. As much as I love CHC, I don't think the market exists for a CHC-HNL flight, no matter where in the States it continued to. I seem to remember NZ trying a CHC-LAX route at one point and having it fail pretty quickly.

I would hope that MEL and BNE could work. Those are the two strongest bets, in my opinion, followed by AKL. I wonder about the amount of feed they would get from other airlines, though. They already have codeshare arrangements with Virgin Australia, DL, UA and AA. All of those airlines serve the US-Australia/New Zealand market already. Would they be willing to put customers on HA flights?

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Could they enter the US-Australia market with HNL as a central connector? They won't be able to compete with the non-stops from LAX, SFO, and HOU, but those all go to SYD and AKL, except for LAX, which serves MEL. But otherwise, if a customer in LAS wants to go to BNE, he can do so in one stop (it would take two now). A customer in LAX could enjoy one-stop service to BNE and CHC. And customers in HA's other markets like SEA, SAN, and PHX could enjoy one-stop service to any city in the Eastern Australia/NZ zone, which would be competitive with one-stop service to SYD, AKL, and MEL and superior to two-stop service to BNE and CHC.

Don't forget that QF and Virgin Australia serve LAX-BNE and QF serves DFW-BNE.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineHAL From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2572 posts, RR: 53
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2569 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
But it's still a leisure market with little premium class traffic, and a high percentage of passengers who are filling the F and J class seats are redeeming frequent flyer miles.


No, they're not mostly frequent fliers. When I've asked some of my FA friends, they can tell (by the paperwork they get regarding their pax), that there are very few FF pax in our front cabin to/from SYD.

It's the old story of stereotypes. Every time a story comes along regarding flights to Hawaii, someone within the first ten posts states that 'nobody makes money going to Hawaii because it's a low-yield leisure market'. Since Hawaiian is one of the most profitable airlines around for the past few years, and is growing & expanding at a good pace, I'd say that the airline makes plenty of money without the 'high-yield premium passengers'. Which therefore means the yield is just fine going to & from this leisure market.

HAL



One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 26005 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2560 times:

Quoting HAL (Reply 20):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
But it's still a leisure market with little premium class traffic, and a high percentage of passengers who are filling the F and J class seats are redeeming frequent flyer miles.


No, they're not mostly frequent fliers. When I've asked some of my FA friends, they can tell (by the paperwork they get regarding their pax), that there are very few FF pax in our front cabin to/from SYD.

I was referring to mainland-Hawaii, not SYD.


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

I usually fly from the West coast to AKL and return in business class. I would not fly HA on that route in any premium seat if we stopped in HNL. I can sleep quite nicely for about 8 hours after dinner on NZ non-stops. Stopping in HNL means no decent sleep. I tried that once on Air Tahiti and had my evening spoiled by about a 2 hour layover and plane change in Tahiti. Never did that again.

On the other hand, if I was in economy I might welcome the chance to get out of my seat and move around half way there. Would those differences effect the yield for HA? Would it put off the premium passengers?


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