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Gulf Carriers Increasingly Bullish?  
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/.../12/emirates-idUSL5E8EC00U20120312

I am often accused of being belligerent in my 'critique' on a.net but it seems management teams over at the gulf carriers have taken a leaf out of my book !

If the chap in the report above is to be believed it appears there will soon be no place for Air France in France, British Airways in Britain or Lufthansa in Germany etc and so forth.

Just how much concern is there for middle eastern carriers that rely so heavilly on transfer traffic ?

There is 'some' concern justifiably but are they really the 'extincttion level event' some fear for legacy carriers that do and ''will always'' benefit from large amounts of lucrative O&D ?

He also mentions the gulf carriers reliance on quality but it does seem (particularly for EK) that the bigger they become the more diluted the quality.

[Edited 2012-03-12 02:52:55]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRafabozzolla From Brazil, joined Apr 2000, 1184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

I've always thought that national Governments should use their sovereign powers and limit the access of Gulf carriers. EU and USA carriers do not have limitless government funds to finance their expansion. It's unfair competition.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

The bilateral between Germany and the UAE clearly states that the capacity an airlines offers between Germany and th UAE may not exceed twice the O and D traffic they fly. So unless many more millions Germans make holidays in the Emirates, this is limited.

Provided of course that the government enforces the contract to be be followed by both sides. This gets increasingly difficult with so many journalists making free holidays in the Emirates invited by Emirates, and then writing in their favor against the European Airlines.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4334 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Thread starter):
there will soon be no place for Air France in France, British Airways in Britain or Lufthansa in Germany etc and so forth.

That puts a nice spin on things. Antinori is certainly critical of the responses of airlines to the challenges facing them but he is not saying that there is no place for them.

He does state that they (other airlines) are hampered by both Government policies that he sees as damaging to the industry and decisions on investments made by the airlines themselves.

The strategies adopted by Gulf carriers is not uniform. While EK is unwilling to be smothered by an alliance that restricts flexibility, EY has been willing to look at buying stakes in European airlines and forming partnerships. We need to recognise that the Gulf carriers are not only competing with other airlines but they compete with each other.

Of course the European airlines are concerned that Gulf carriers are capturing a slice of the market, but a lot of the growth is coming from routes previously under- or unserved. While a lot of traffic is transfer traffic from Europe, an increasing proportion of travellers come from other parts of the globe. AT DXB the biggest absolute growth in passenger numbers has been those travelling within the AGCC area.

But EU carriers do have an advantage over Gulf airlines: a single market that allows any EU carrier to fly to/ from anywhere they wish without the ownership restrictions faced by non-EU carriers.

Quoting Rafabozzolla (Reply 1):
national Governments should use their sovereign powers

They already do to varying degrees. Germany and France in particular have not been to keen on amending bilaterals. There are requirements on tafiffs that restrict the fares that may be offered so as to protect the local incumbents as well. Other states have been willing to sign more flexible agreements, a result of which is that at DXB for example

Quote:
"The most significant percentage traffic growth during the year was seen on routes linking Dubai to Eastern Europe (+81%)
Source: AMEinfo


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3999 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
Antinori is certainly critical of the responses of airlines to the challenges facing them but he is not saying that there is no place for them.

Mmm...the most dismissive language used by him regarding European carriers seems to have been removed from the report...?

Interesting.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineSuperCaravelle From Netherlands, joined Jan 2012, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3955 times:

For all the talk about European airlines not needed anymore and DXB as the center of the world, it shouldn't be forgotten that DXB is not the center of the world.

A direct flight from CDG to PEK is 5100 miles. A route via DXB is 6900 miles. That's 35% more in miles alone, and that's not even taking into account transfer times. Also, the bigger DXB becomes, the less convenient it will become for pax that want to fly on routes also covered by other airlines.

Will EY and EK continue to exist and continue to be profitable? For sure, they have a good business model and even better execution of the model. Will they take over EU airlines and passengers on a grand scale? I am inclined to say no.

[Edited 2012-03-12 06:37:28]

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 5):

  

To me this kind of thing just all seems rather Michael O'Leary-esque. (and tiresome)

Dare I day I say 'nouveau-riche'....

Can't these people (of which there are a few) just get on with it and resist the urge to keep having a pop at the well established competition ?

It smacks of an inferiority complex.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 5):
For all the talk about European airlines not needed anymore and DXB as the center of the world, it shouldn't be forgotten that DXB is not the center of the world.

A direct flight from CDG to PEK is 5100 miles. A route via DXB is 6900 miles. That's 35% more in miles alone, and that's not even taking into account transfer times. Also, the bigger DXB becomes, the less convenient it will become for pax that want to fly on routes also covered by other airlines.

Will EY and EK continue to exist and continue to be profitable? For sure, they have a good business model and even better execution of the model. Will they take over EU airlines and passengers on a grand scale? I am inclined to say no.

Exactly. Without significant O&D, the growth at these airlines will eventually slow down. Plus, there might come a day they will start cannibalizing each other, along with potential newcomers like Oman Air or a revitalized Kuwait Airways. Currently there isn't total overlap in their networks but someday there will be.


User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3670 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
The bilateral between Germany and the UAE clearly states that the capacity an airlines offers between Germany and th UAE may not exceed twice the O and D traffic they fly. So unless many more millions Germans make holidays in the Emirates, this is limited.

This approach to me makes the most sense for a country to adopt - it tows the line between protecting the national carrier from seat dumping but still promoting tourism, business traffic et al. into the country.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
The strategies adopted by Gulf carriers is not uniform. While EK is unwilling to be smothered by an alliance that restricts flexibility, EY has been willing to look at buying stakes in European airlines and forming partnerships. We need to recognise that the Gulf carriers are not only competing with other airlines but they compete with each other.

         The way EK, EY and QR operate is quite different from one another.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 6):
To me this kind of thing just all seems rather Michael O'Leary-esque. (and tiresome)

Dare I day I say 'nouveau-riche'....

Can't these people (of which there are a few) just get on with it and resist the urge to keep having a pop at the well established competition ?

It smacks of an inferiority complex.

   I agree with this as well.

I really wonder what the point of these sort of articles is - it really only serves to be antagonistic, and does not help the airline's cause to try to gain more access into different markets.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlinewindshear From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 2325 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3139 times:

I don't have so much confidence in the whole inflated culture strategy the gulf states are acting out. They are basically trying to offer what ever is found in Paris, Austria and so on... In desert nations...

They import culture, and that's just not sustainable IMHO.

That being said(some might disagree or even feel angry over my opinion), I think the gulf airlines do pose a threat!

Increasing fuel costs, environmental sensitive regulations and union pressure in the west, force many western airlines to cut cost, at the expense of either price or product quality, sometimes even both.

Gulf airlines have it very good in this sense! Emirates for example, fly out of Dubai with almost zero fuel charges, offer working conditions for their employees, that their western colleagues would never agree to and the owners/investors have the cash needed, to invest in a fairly high product standard.

The current state of affairs in terms of economy and environmental sensitivity, has dealt the gulf airlines a fair-hand in this game... But who knows what tomorrow brings?

Boaz



"If you believe breaking is possible, believe in fixing also"-Rebbe Nachman
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 2950 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
fly out of Dubai with almost zero fuel charges,

Jet Fuel 2009-10: AED11,908million 2010-2011: AED16,820
41.2% on year change
2010-2011 34.4% of operating costs.
Source: The Emirates Group Annual Report 2010-2011.

EK has increased fares this month, adding a fuel surcharge, in an effort to address the fact that its projected profit has fallen as fuel costs rise.

Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
offer working conditions for their employees, that their western colleagues

Which begs the obvious question: why do so many Europeans, Canadians, Australian et al queue up to join EK? Surely it can't be just the desire to wear a cute red hat and a lace curtain or a red, brown and white striped tie. Might the whole package have something to do with it?

Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
environmental sensitivity

Gulf airlines operate to countries where they have to abide by environmental laws as well. With the rise in fuel prices (from which they are not immune) they have every interest in increasing fuel efficiency and with the imposition of carbon taxes and Environmental Trading Schemes reducing emissions. EK having a relatively young fleet does help in both respects.

Of course you will have compared the L/100PK efficiency of the major airlines, as well as CO2/PK and CO2/FTK figures. EK's overall fleet carbon dioxide efficiency figure is 26% lower than the IATA average - a figure that may improve as newer aircraft are delivered and older ones leave the fleet.
Source: IATA quoted in The Emirates Group Environmental Report 2010-2011


Edited to remove acronym

[Edited 2012-03-13 03:45:51]

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5106 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
They import culture, and that's just not sustainable IMHO.

Careful with that assessment... the US did exactly that during its formative years.

What will limit the Gulf states eventually is 1) water and 2) that the desert just is not that appealing a place to spend your holiday.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2809 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
Which begs the obvious question: why do so many Europeans, Canadians, Australian et al queue up to join EK?

Because most of them are naive kids who want to see the world.

When the glamour has worn off and they get homesick and tired of living in Dubai the smiles to the passengers on board the aircraft become fewer and fewer.....

Not sure how EK can address that problem. As a former crew member I cannot think of anything worse than not being able to go home after a trip. (especially when the 'adventure' of living in Dubai has worn off)



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
they get homesick and tired of living in Dubai

Yes, I can imagine that being the case and would account for some of the annual attrition rate. I know that some of the rosters can be hellish and that it isn't all extended stays in desirable locations.

But apart from being away from home, family and friends, is the total package much worse than airlines elsewhere? I know that there is a tax free base salary determined by grade and experience plus additions for hours flown, but how about things like Accommodation, Company Provided Transport/Transport Allowance, Medical and Dental Provision (I believe this based on a premium paid by the employee), Personal Life and Accident Insurance, education for those who have children (this probably applies more to senior position, pilots, etc). And is the profit share scheme worth anything?

How do these compare in terms of total value to the typical remuneration package offered by competitors?


User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2730 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
But apart from being away from home, family and friends, is the total package much worse than airlines elsewhere?

Well to be honest the money is irrelevant.

Until you've actually worked as long-haul crew for a while it is difficult to understand just how much you appreciate your time at home.

Believe me it can be an incredibly lonely job !

Hotel rooms can be the most depressing places in the world. Even the most luxurious. Trust me.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Believe me it can be an incredibly lonely job !

Yes, despite the image it's not all partying and glamour. I can understand that having spent a number of years "on the road" before returning to Australia.


User currently offlineYTZ From Canada, joined Jun 2009, 1832 posts, RR: 23
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 2):
The bilateral between Germany and the UAE clearly states that the capacity an airlines offers between Germany and th UAE may not exceed twice the O and D traffic they fly. So unless many more millions Germans make holidays in the Emirates, this is limited.

And yet people criticize Canada for its bilats with the UAE. If Canada has adopted that approach, the UAE would have had half the slots they do now. That said, it wasn't so much out of spite that the UAE didn't get more slots. It was for the sake of consistency in adherence to a long standing policy of promoting ties with O/D traffic...important for an immigrant and trading nation. They will have to find some way to accomodate the gulf carriers in the future though.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
Which begs the obvious question: why do so many Europeans, Canadians, Australian et al queue up to join EK?

To be fair, the Westerners only go in for cabin crew, air crew and some management and technical positions. You won't find too many white guys working as cleaners or ramp rats at EK. And savings on all these positions add up to. Moreover, as was pointed out, quite often (with the exception of the pilots), it's often younger folk who want to see the world (certainly the case for several of my friends who joined EK and EY as cabin crew). They don't intend to make a career of it.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 10):
Gulf airlines operate to countries where they have to abide by environmental laws as well.

Yeah, but they don't have inconveniences like noise ordinances at home.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16944 posts, RR: 48
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

They're a good Arab Spring away from reality. Maybe the EU carriers should drop leaflets 
Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Careful with that assessment... the US did exactly that during its formative years.

How? In the 1700s?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 15):

Yes, despite the image it's not all partying and glamour. I can understand that having spent a number of years "on the road" before returning to Australia.

Plus the HR policies at these carriers are nightmarish, although worse at EY/QR than EK.

Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
fly out of Dubai with almost zero fuel charges

It's really never been about the fuel. It all boils down to the Gulf supporting their carriers, while the EU/India/US tries to kill them at every turn. That's why the GCC carriers succeed, and the EU carriers do not.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Because most of them are naive kids who want to see the world.

I hardly think of myself as naive, nor are most of my crew friends and colleagues. We all have our reasons for joining, some for the fun and adventure, some for the career, some to send money home, some because they were lost and found Emirates as a way spend a few years. And you'd find that that's the case at most jobs.

Its quite insulting actually, for me, as someone who's 25 and has a higher education to be called a naive kid, even if its a mass generalization. I realize there's 13,000 plus of us, but what good are mass generalizations to begin with.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
When the glamour has worn off and they get homesick and tired of living in Dubai the smiles to the passengers on board the aircraft become fewer and fewer.....

I think there was a period of time (around 2006/2007) that quality control was a serious issue at EK, and management took steps to rectify it. I do believe they've tweaked things here and there to weed out candidates who really are at EK for fun with no semblance of the reality that's about to face them, nor any desire to provide good service. That said, with the way our growth has been, yes there have been recruitment issues but management is aware of it and are working to figure out how best to try to uphold standards in parallel to growth.

As for people getting tired of Dubai - it happens. Dubai is a small place, and a quite materialistic one at that. It's really the people - our fellow crew - that save it for me. I've had numerous friends leave over the years from EK, some joined before me, some were batch mates, and some even were hired after me. As they grew tired of the job, as they realized they had taken as much away from the job as they could, they left. But on the whole, it did not diminish their ability or desire to provide good service to our passengers.

I think some of our marketing has backfired in that it has painted the lot of us as vapid idiots who like tanning on the beach in Mauritius and bitch and moan about a Chennai turn. That, for the most part, is untrue.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 12):
Not sure how EK can address that problem. As a former crew member I cannot think of anything worse than not being able to go home after a trip. (especially when the 'adventure' of living in Dubai has worn off)

I agree, I can't wait to go home after a long trip. The Asia-Oz-NZ patterns are brutal. But home to me, has grown to be Dubai, because that's where I live, and that's where my friends are. That does not take away from the fact that London will always also be home for me, and I will always know that I will return to the UK eventually.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 13):
Yes, I can imagine that being the case and would account for some of the annual attrition rate. I know that some of the rosters can be hellish and that it isn't all extended stays in desirable locations.

Agreed - and I think what makes a good cabin crew is the realization that we have unique job and are quite privileged to be able to spend a given month in a host of different countries. We get to travel the world, and for some us, spend time flying which has been a lifelong passion. But like I said, it's not all glam layovers but again, that's the case for any job. In my opinion, Emirates has gotten better at weeding out the folks who apply because they think it's going to be a non-stop party - these are the same folks who end up being the sour pusses on board when anything goes wrong, or when they have a less than desirable roster that month.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):
Until you've actually worked as long-haul crew for a while it is difficult to understand just how much you appreciate your time at home.

As cabin crew myself, I agree.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 14):

Believe me it can be an incredibly lonely job !

It can - especially if you have a crew that doesn't really "jive" per se. On the flip side, it can be the most amazing job when the crew does.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 16):
Moreover, as was pointed out, quite often (with the exception of the pilots), it's often younger folk who want to see the world (certainly the case for several of my friends who joined EK and EY as cabin crew). They don't intend to make a career of it.

And what's wrong with that? I'd say these airlines almost prefer it that way. So long as we do our job and we do it well and make our passengers happy (I'd like to think I do), then what's it to the passenger whether I intend to be 55 and still flying as cabin crew (not that there's anything wrong with that either).

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
Plus the HR policies at these carriers are nightmarish, although worse at EY/QR than EK.

I'd say QR takes the cake by miles on that one.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Quoting YTZ (Reply 16):
You won't find too many white guys working as cleaners or ramp rats at EK.

True, but these positions are not part of EK but of (a sister company) Dnata who service other carriers, including several Western carriers, who all benefit from the same cost efficiencies. That's not a defence of low wages but I haven't noticed airlines complaining about lower wages in other countries and crying foul.

Do EU airlines really want baggage handlers in BOM to be paid more? How many threads in this forum are there are there complaining that unions artificially inflate costs and call for their removal? It seems odd to complain that BA staff are paid too much and then insist that staff somewhere else are paid too little.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 16):
They don't intend to make a career of it.

Again true, but this does not address any relative advantage Gulf carriers may have in terms of total labour costs. One of the constant criticisms of carriers like EK levied by the likes of AF and LH is that they have lower costs due to income tax free salaries. But those carriers do not pay for things that EK does so a comparison needs to be made and that can only be done if real figures are given. I had asked, but none have been provided by critics. Indeed, one former employee has honestly stated that the money is irrelevent. In deciding whether to remain with an airline that may be true, but for aviation economics it is another matter.

Quoting YTZ (Reply 16):
but they don't have inconveniences like noise ordinances at home

Oh don't be so unreasonable. DXB has reduced the number of passenger announcements by 70% to provide a more pleasant passenger experience.  

But seriously, while DXB does not operate a curfew like several airports in other countries (and some A.net members are very critical of those countries claiming that they pander to the NIMBYS) Dubai - the Emirate, not the airport - did employ a British environmental consultancy (Abercromby or was it Abercrombie - I am not sure of the spelling) to monitor, assess and make recommendations for noise management. Since then DXB has put in place noise monitoring stations and trained people to use them. Flight paths and approach/ landing patterns have been adjusted to minimise noise effects on the ground. DXB also bans aircraft that don't meet certain noise criteria. Again, EK's relatively young fleet means that noise levels are lower than that of airlines operating older equipment. (Unless of course Airbus and Boeing are lying about noise reduction in their aircraft, which I seriously doubt.)

[Edited 2012-03-13 08:55:53]

User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 18):
Its quite insulting actually, for me, as someone who's 25 and has a higher education to be called a naive kid, even if its a mass generalization. I realize there's 13,000 plus of us, but what good are mass generalizations to begin with.

Look no offence but you're 25.

When I was 25 I was going out to clubs until all hours on 4 day JFK's, laying on the beach for a week in BGI and getting payed a fortune to do it to boot etc

Even under conditions like that (and going home to my own bed after a trip) I got fed up with it as I got older.

That's all.

[Edited 2012-03-13 09:03:53]


Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
User currently offlinepnd100 From Canada, joined Mar 2009, 343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2402 times:

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 8):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
The strategies adopted by Gulf carriers is not uniform. While EK is unwilling to be smothered by an alliance that restricts flexibility, EY has been willing to look at buying stakes in European airlines and forming partnerships. We need to recognise that the Gulf carriers are not only competing with other airlines but they compete with each other.

         The way EK, EY and QR operate is quite different from one another.

Agreed.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 11):
Quoting windshear (Reply 9):
They import culture, and that's just not sustainable IMHO.

Careful with that assessment... the US did exactly that during its formative years.

Agreed.

With respect to EK specifically I think they can co-exist because their business model is different from the European carriers. EK seems to thrive on offering "extreme" services & capacity to secondary destinations. They fly to many cities other foreign carriers do not fly to & they go hard after two markets - ultra price conscious VFR travelers & those interested in ultra luxury. The European carriers not only have the O&D, they offer a much more balanced product. For me personally, while I love to fly on Airbus aircraft, EK's A380 in Y felt more like an actual bus. Their ICE system was good but I definitely felt it wasn't for me. I personally would rather fly on LH or BA or AF.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 2367 times:

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 18):
I think there was a period of time (around 2006/2007) that quality control was a serious issue at EK,

Consistency, or rather the lack of it, became a byword for EK for a while and it is noticeable that management has responded, at least in the air. I am still hearing complaints about ground staff at DXB though. Perhaps that's a matter for another thread.

Part of the problem may have been the phenomenal growth which, despite Sheikh Ahmed's confident interviews, may have surprised the most optimistic at EK. I notice that recruitment information and videos play down the glamour side of things and stress the responsibilities more these days.

I am aware that EK proposes to recruit an additional 4,500 staff, including 4,000 cabin crew, 450 pilots and some additional engineering and support staff. May I ask, with the effects of the "Arab spring", the GFC and consequent uncertainty over future fuel direction and in an effort to contain costs, has there been a general move to reduce cabin crew numbers on flights or have we seen any attempt to cover new routes by poaching crew from existing routes?


User currently offlinesq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1628 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
Look no offence but you're 25.

Ha! None taken.

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
When I was 25 I was going out to clubs until all hours on 4 day JFK's, laying on the beach for a week in BGI and getting payed a fortune to do it to boot etc

FOUR day layovers in New York!?? WEEK LONG layovers in Barbados!? Good lord you had it good   No such thing as a week long layover at EK unfortunately...

Quoting mikey72 (Reply 20):
Even under conditions like that (and going home to my own bed after a trip) I got fed up with it as I got older.

Oh yeah I agree - while I still love a good party or a nice stiff drink, I've toned it down considerably since my university days, it's only natural I think. Even since my first days in Dubai compared to now my idea of a great night has changed quite a bit...

PS, I didn't mean to say that I thought YOU were calling me an idiot per se, just noting that it's a common thought that I hear often, and it does grate on me a bit. Apologies if I came across as accusatory.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 22):
Part of the problem may have been the phenomenal growth which, despite Sheikh Ahmed's confident interviews, may have surprised the most optimistic at EK. I notice that recruitment information and videos play down the glamour side of things and stress the responsibilities more these days.

  

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 22):
I am aware that EK proposes to recruit an additional 4,500 staff, including 4,000 cabin crew, 450 pilots and some additional engineering and support staff. May I ask, with the effects of the "Arab spring", the GFC and consequent uncertainty over future fuel direction and in an effort to contain costs, has there been a general move to reduce cabin crew numbers on flights or have we seen any attempt to cover new routes by poaching crew from existing routes?

Not that I'm aware of actually or noticed thus far...no moves as recent as the Arab Spring at least.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 22):
Consistency, or rather the lack of it, became a byword for EK for a while and it is noticeable that management has responded, at least in the air.

I hadn't started working at EK then, but every now and then when I do end up working with a miserable crew member, its frustrating as all hell to see them delivering shoddy service (and they know it too!) when I'm trying my best to give the best service I can and try to imbue the training EK has given us to our passengers. There was this one time recently where a crew member actually refused to give a passenger in Economy water since "we were too far into descent" (we were not) - I happened to be walking by, overheard this, took note of the seat number, went over to the galley, fetched a cup of water and gave it to the passenger with my apologies with a smile. The passenger was surprised and seemed happy. Was that so difficult?? Argh some people...

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 22):
I am still hearing complaints about ground staff at DXB though. P

Oh yeah we still hear them too - and rightfully so.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlinemikey72 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 1780 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 23):
FOUR day layovers in New York!?? WEEK LONG layovers in Barbados!? Good lord you had it good No such thing as a week long layover at EK unfortunately...

Wasn't that long ago either. Just goes to show how many more flights there are to places these days.

Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 23):
PS, I didn't mean to say that I thought YOU were calling me an idiot per se, just noting that it's a common thought that I hear often, and it does grate on me a bit. Apologies if I came across as accusatory.

LOL, it's ok. I also know people that have been flying since before the dawn of time and they still love it so hopefully you'll be one of them !

I think my trouble was that my generation were spoilt. It all got very serious after 9/11. Just wasn't the same and then of course it was all about bean counting. The fun went out of it.



Flying is like sex - I've never had all I wanted but occasionally I've had all I can stand.
25 Quokkas : And this can occur in any business, sadly. The company gets a bad reputation and it doesn't make anyone's job easier even if some passengers can be a
26 windshear : Eh... I can answer that in short terms: "Work"... Being a pilot these days trying to collect hours is not the easiest task... Same goes for cabin cre
27 ElPistolero : Agree completely. It seems to be a point that everyone keeps missing. DXB is well located to carry N. America - India traffic and Europe - Australia
28 Post contains images ElPistolero : There's a very good chance that many of the things you use everyday were made by "people who work under less favorable working conditions than their
29 Post contains images Quokkas : No need to apologise as no offence was taken and my feeling are in no way hurt. I simply respond to claims that are made. All the time assertions are
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