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AR Bleeding : Daily Loses Of 2.2 Million Dolars  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 18992 times:

Since the Argentinian government took ( again ) control of the airline from the Spanish Marsans Group, in 2008, the tax payers give to the airline 2,44 Billion dollars. With this money they could buy 44 brand new 737 NG, but they only have 2 new 737-700 in the fleet. The big majority of the money, around 2,2 Billion dollars, goes to keep the airline "operational", and only 240 million dollars was compromised in the purchase of new metal for the fleet.

For how long this situation will be tolerated by the tax payers in a country with much more important troubles to attend is a mystery, but the bottom line is, AR needs a radical change in the way they are doing business, or the outcome will be disastrous for the airline and for the Argentinian people.

Thoughts ?

G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
105 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5946 posts, RR: 30
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 18734 times:
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If you are saying they have only gotten two "new" 737-700s as in "factory new", probably. Fact is though, they have incorporated over 15, if not more.

Austral has also gotten over 20 ERJs and AR and Austral are essentially the same.

Having said that, AR is a pretty crappy airline, going nowhere since a long time ago.

But it is a bastion of Cristina´s son, and represents the "good" years of the K´s policy of getting Argentina back on its track.

You can see how they are doing exactly the same these days with Repsol-YPF. Although the way Marsans was managing the airline was just as crappy as AR is being managed today. So I don´t think there is any difference. At least in the State´s hands the airline is not being plundered as it was with IB and Marsans.



MGGS
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11365 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 18668 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

It seems also their plans to build an amazing network in Brazil is not doing that well. They said would run BUE-GRU 9x daily and BUE-GIG 6x daily... now reduced to 4x/5x daily to GRU and 3x daily to GIG, some of them with E-Jets.


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlineghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5197 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 18606 times:

Sadly, as even in some cases my country is too, Argentina is a joke.

g77



Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6901 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 18391 times:

Just some of the reasons I can think of
- Woefully dated inflight product. Hard to get decent yields with the worst product on any of the longhaul routes they fly
- A dreadful on time performance, customer service record. Again hard to get people to fly them when just about everyone else competing against AR does a better job
-The staff have powerful unions which are good for the employees individually, but inhibit the company, it also appears to be a mature work force, which of course costs far more and is far more difficult to move on.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 896 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 18176 times:
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here we go again with Argentinia... just read about how the government is mishandling the economy again, and Mrs. Fernandez is forcing agencies report lower than actual inflation rates.

Read on a magazine they're traying to gain acccess to fly to the Falkland Islands.. I wonder if they're going to make money there


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3364 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 17974 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 5):
here we go again with Argentinia... just read about how the government is mishandling the economy again, and Mrs. Fernandez is forcing agencies report lower than actual inflation rates.

Read on a magazine they're traying to gain acccess to fly to the Falkland Islands.. I wonder if they're going to make money there

I don't think that the posturing over the Falklands is much to do with money (there's some oil but noone really knows how much and it's very difficult to extract), it's about providing a diversion from the domestic financial issues that they're expericing - AR being one of them.


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17761 times:
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Swallow some Argentine pride and sell the airline to LAN. AR is too far gone to save itself.

User currently onlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3276 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17728 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 6):
(there's some oil but noone really knows how much and it's very difficult to extract),

They've found 3 fields with an estimated 8.3B BBL in them which is triple the size of all the UK North Sea fields.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8617 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 17708 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):
Swallow some Argentine pride

Umm... as the people on the Falkland Islands might say: not bloody likely.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineandrefranca From Brazil, joined May 2011, 588 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17553 times:

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 6):

It's all about PROUD, the argentines are extremely proud, they're known in south american for that, they don't even say they're latinos, "they're europe in south america" hahaha what a joke, AR service is gargantuan, never been so mistreated in my entire life before, and I survived a 12 hours delay and my friend asked the FA water and she told him "If you have arms and can hold one, go back in the galley and pick it youself!" can you imagine?


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17480 times:

Quoting AR385 (Reply 1):
Fact is though, they have incorporated over 15, if not more.

Austral has also gotten over 20 ERJs and AR and Austral are essentially the same.

Do you know how many of the 15 737NG you mention as "incorporated" are leased ?
And the E Jets for Austral are part of the 240 million dollars I mentioned before, because those planes were financed with a payment of 15 % from AR and the other 85 % was credit from a Brazilian Bank, so they will be paying those planes monthly with a "good" interest rate and probably making the business not the best move anyway.

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 6):
I don't think that the posturing over the Falklands is much to do with money (there's some oil but no one really knows how much and it's very difficult to extract), it's about providing a diversion from the domestic financial issues that they're experiencing - AR being one of them.

AND, I will not be very surprised if they use the "new AR flight to the Falklands" as an excuse to finally forbid or eliminate the flight of LAN ( from Punta Arenas, actually this flight is THE connection the islanders have with the continent ). Once LAN is out of the equation, wait a few weeks and cancel the AR flight too with any excuse ( and then the real goal, isolate even more the Falkland's people, can be finally achieved ). This kind of shameless strategies to achieve her personal desires is almost a personal seal of Queen CFK, and like I said, I will not be surprised at all.


G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17481 times:

The "new" A343s should save some money, and the three 744s have been placed elsewhere, two going to a new Spanish start-up, the third to Aerosur (to replace the leased Virgin 744?).

User currently onlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 17294 times:

Gonzalo, although I am no big fan of AR following an over 12-hour delay on a Florianopolis-EZE flight, I just need to point out that there is nothing unusual with financing their aircraft (in this case the Embraers) via an 85% loan provided by BNDES. Most airlines do it that way. LAN has done the same for most of its A340s and A320s via an 85% loan provided by banks guaranteed by the European credit agencies (ECAs) as the B767-300s were equally financed via loans of 85% guaranteed by the U.S. Eximbank.
I should know... I worked on putting the financing package together for LAN.


User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2497 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16979 times:

Wait a minute, I thought AR 's problems were due to them being owned in the past by the evil Spanish Marsans Group, and that they would all be solved after re-nationalization. Are you now telling me that AR's problems are internal and have to do with the how company itself functions?   

User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 16239 times:

About the only good thing about AR right now is their new paint scheme unfortunately. I haven't flown with them in a long time because I've avoided them. You simply can't rely on them from all the stories that are heard just about every week.


God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15839 times:

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 13):
Gonzalo, although I am no big fan of AR following an over 12-hour delay on a Florianopolis-EZE flight, I just need to point out that there is nothing unusual with financing their aircraft (in this case the Embraers) via an 85% loan provided by BNDES. Most airlines do it that way. LAN has done the same for most of its A340s and A320s via an 85% loan provided by banks guaranteed by the European credit agencies (ECAs) as the B767-300s were equally financed via loans of 85% guaranteed by the U.S. Eximbank.

Oh yes, I know, and I totally agree with that way of doing business, totally acceptable... But there is a "small" difference : LAN, doesn't take a single dollar from the tax payers in Chile since privatization many many years ago, and although is not the best airline in the world, I think we can say, in general terms, is a fine working airline.
AR instead, burn 2,2 million dollars taken from the Argentinian people every day, and not for fleet renewal ( like I said, the amount of money they received in the last years will be enough to have more than 40 737NG, totally paid, rendering any loan from any bank unnecessary ).
And the worst part is, even when 90 % of all the money they receive goes just to run the airline, they are still unable to offer a decent product according to the big majority of the public inside and outside Argentina.

Is that acceptable ??

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15761 times:

Don't want to turn this thread political, but not only AR wastes Argentina USD2,2millions per day but also forces Argentinian Aviation Authorities to keep international airlines from even negotiating frequencies to airports far from EZE.
No matter how local governments try to get international service, they're more than often blocked by the AR Porteño pro all-thru EZE establishment lobbists.
Lets face it, AR won't fly its own metal from ROS, COR, MDZ, TUC, SLA.... to MIA, to SAO, to important hubs or (scheduled) to major leisure destinations for Argentinians.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently onlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15611 times:

Gonzalo, I agree with you on the AR point... and in fact whereas as already stated I am not a fan of AR (far from it) I am a huge fan of Buenos Aires and a fan of LAN as well!! I think LAN is probably the best airline in the Western hemisphere I have ever flown (Aeromexico would be at the same level, maybe just a bit behind). I miss being able to fly their A340s between Paris and Madrid in business class - flat beds for a two hour flight!!

But back to AR and Argentina, a truly sad and very frustrating situation.... And as I say to my Argentinian friends who claim to be Europeans and not Latin Americans, they are neither because other Europeans and other Latin Americans seem to get their act together...


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5946 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15506 times:
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Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
Do you know how many of the 15 737NG you mention as "incorporated" are leased ?
And the E Jets for Austral are part of the 240 million dollars I mentioned before, because those planes were financed with a payment of 15 % from AR and the other 85 % was credit from a Brazilian Bank, so they will be paying those planes monthly with a "good" interest rate and probably making the business not the best move anyway.

So what? Are you saying every airline in the world should own their fleet 100%? Your OT was filled with half truths, but I let it go. Now, what you are saying above goes beyond that and makes no sense, unless you have no idea about asset management in ailines.

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 11):
AND, I will not be very surprised if they use the "new AR flight to the Falklands" as an excuse to finally forbid or eliminate the flight of LAN ( from Punta Arenas, actually this flight is THE connection the islanders have with the continent ). Once LAN is out of the equation, wait a few weeks and cancel the AR flight too with any excuse ( and then the real goal, isolate even more the Falkland's people, can be finally achieved ).

They do not want to isolate the Malvinas islands. They want AR to fly there from EZE or AEP. Perfectly understandable and fits right with the accords signed in 1998 or 1999, I´m not sure of the date. If the LAN flight is discontinued unilaterally LAN can still fly there, altough avoiding Argentine soil. Maybe they´ll need a 767 for that.

Do you have any proof? a document where they Argentine government wants to isolate the Malvinas? Cristina did an about face with this policy a few weeks ago. Now if the malvinenses wish to fly another carrier than AR (assuming the LAN flight is cancelled) they are free to fly to the UK on the twice weekly RAF flight.

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 13):
Gonzalo, although I am no big fan of AR following an over 12-hour delay on a Florianopolis-EZE flight, I just need to point out that there is nothing unusual with financing their aircraft (in this case the Embraers) via an 85% loan provided by BNDES. Most airlines do it that way. LAN has done the same for most of its A340s and A320s via an 85% loan provided by banks guaranteed by the European credit agencies (ECAs) as the B767-300s were equally financed via loans of 85% guaranteed by the U.S. Eximbank.
I should know... I worked on putting the financing package together for LAN.

Exaclty. I´m no fan of AR, but what the OP is saying makes no sense.

[Edited 2012-03-13 07:36:39]


MGGS
User currently offlinedoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3381 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15076 times:

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 10):
"they're europe in south america" hahaha what a joke

Well from the airline prospective, perhaps they truly are the Italy of South America.  



When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently onlineTYCOON From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 379 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 14972 times:

doug_Or, when was the last time you flew Alitalia?
I just flew them yesterday round-trip Paris Orly to Milan Linate in business class. Excellent service, friendly FAs and the morning flight out left right on time and the return flight last night arrived back in Orly 20 minutes early!!!
I also recently flew AZ business class from Rio de Janeiro to CDG via FCO. The GIG-FCO flight was on an A330 with the new business class. The FAs weren't the greatest, but full flat bed seats more comfortable than BA and the flight was on time as was the flight CDG-FCO (and the FA was great and very pleasant).
So, to all my fellow A.netters, I would suggest you give AZ a try.
But back to AR... I can only hope things improve, but I have been hoping for the last 10 years!! I am booked to fly them from AEP - PDP in December. I'm already stressed that it may not work out as smoothly as I would like... Fingers crossed!


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 16939 posts, RR: 48
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14789 times:

Not surprising. Of course they could open up their market to competition and have a flourishing market like Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Chile, even Ecuador, but they insist on maintaining the equivalent of Aeroperu, VASP, or Ecuatoriana. Sad, but that's what you get.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 14759 times:

This shouldn't be a thread taken by politics but can't stop smiling at this:

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 20):
Well from the airline prospective, perhaps they truly are the Italy of South America.

I've to say rather more likely the Greece of South America; airline-wise and country financial-wise. But Argentina hasn't an E.U. to back rescue it

Back to AR, If there's a will to keep it operating, then How to make it a reliable and not-money losing airline??.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8090 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 13885 times:
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Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 4):
-The staff have powerful unions which are good for the employees individually, but inhibit the company, it also appears to be a mature work force, which of course costs far more and is far more difficult to move on

The over 55 staff should be "incentivized" to retire. DO buy outs and offer extra years credit on the pensions.

Quoting aloges (Reply 9):
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 7):Swallow some Argentine pride
Umm... as the people on the Falkland Islands might say: not bloody likely

The whole of Argentina is subsidizing a "looser" airline with old planes and scheules to all kinds of far away destinations. Does AR really need to fly to Australia ? NO it does NOT. Let LAN handle it.

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 23):
Well from the airline prospective, perhaps they truly are the Italy of South America.
I've to say rather more likely the Greece of South America; airline-wise and country financial-wise. But Argentina hasn't an E.U. to back rescue it

Well said !!!


25 Post contains images avion660 : I'd love to see a detailed definitive map of Argentine airspace. From this Google map you would think that Chile had access to the Atlantic without f
26 Post contains images OA260 : Lol... Maybe a new route for them to make some money BUE-PSY-LHR
27 SKY1 : Exactly! Now the airline is being plundered for the argentinian themselves, that's the difference. I wonder how the AR future is going to be now ther
28 jetsetter629 : Is Austral any better on internal routes in Argentina for reliability? I know they are the "same" airline that rolls up to the same management group,
29 Fyano773 : Despite Skyteam AR was lured to join them, apparently AR has prevented from signing interline agreements with AM. Of the five SkyTeam carriers that c
30 Post contains links LatinPlane : Here's the article in Spanish from Clarin.ar http://www.clarin.com/politica/Aerol...o-recibio-aviones_0_662333779.html
31 doug_Or : I was mostly referring to AZ's financial woes over the last 5 or so years rather than their service levels. I look forward to someday having the oppo
32 bobloblaw : You think in Peron's Argentina losing $2.2m per day is a big deal....pfffft
33 MD11junkie : Nothing against you, AR385 - just using this line of your post to state what's actually been done and not creative accountancy done by some mediocre n
34 Gonzalo : I only have some questions, I honestly don't know the answers, and maybe you can clarify this for me Gastón. Can you tell me what academic degrees h
35 Post contains links SJOtoLIR : Based on everything written above, I cannot believe that AR is close to SkyTeam grouping as commented in older threads. Related press release in Spani
36 2travel2know2 : i was given the Argentinean government the benefit of the doubt, I could have compare it to Zimbabwe's airline and finances. Airlines should be seen
37 jfk777 : AR should be put out of its misery and sold to a bigger entity be it LAN or AV/Taca or Copa. Argentina needs to stop feeling "bad" about itself and th
38 Fyano773 : In this January article from CAPA we can see a broader view: Some points within the article reflect a dire situation: Aerolineas' long-haul operation
39 something : I too am surprised about the high number of experts on the issue we have here on airliners.net. But all they have been saying so far is ''how terribl
40 Gonzalo : That is just another BAD SIGN. It is a RED FLAG for the honest people in Argentina and everywhere. I don't want to make this thread a political one,
41 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Perhaps, but most of these armchairs CEOs know more about the industry than the Argentine government, so pardon us while we wait for AR or Argentina
42 AR385 : Wrong. Only PUBLIC companies are required to do that, in most countries. AR, as a state owned company, is not required to do that, as far as I know.
43 Gonzalo : But there is no law forbidding to do that, and I can tell you, I know at least a few dozens of PRIVATE companies here in Chile who publishes the fina
44 AR385 : Dumb strategic move, if you ask me. I know very few companies that are not required by law that go ahead and publish their financial data. It makes n
45 Gonzalo : Really? If it is a dumb move, can I ask you why some of the private corporations who actually do this here, are so damn successful ? Just a few examp
46 AR385 : Thank you for the lesson. Let me add to what you wrote: CENCOSUD is a publicly listed company, thus, has an obligation to post its financials publicl
47 SJOtoLIR : Marsans tried unsuccessfully to improve the situation on AR. . The current financial situation on AR is totally unappealing for the interests of any
48 LipeGIG : Agreed. Plus against AR the fact that their network is limited to ... Argentina. AV, TA and G3, are for sure better assets.
49 something : I suppose the requirements are different in every country, as to who has to publish what, when and where. In Germany every Ltd. (''Kapitalgesellschaf
50 LJ : Skyteam seems to think otherwise.. BTW Am I the only happy AR customer in the world? I flew them on my vacation to Argentina in 2009 and 2011 and are
51 ghost77 : In first world countries... usually things are different... than in 3rd world countries. I quote myself... AR has to cut is long haul operations firs
52 RAGAZZO777 : Rumour has it that AR will soon suspend their flights to/from Mexico.
53 something : No, I flew them AEP-COR-AEP and was content with their offerings. But given how much I paid for the ticket, I doubt that particular flight is the roo
54 jfk777 : AA is beating them hands down on the EZE-MIA route with up to 3 777 daily in the summer. AA also flies EZE to JFK & DFW. Delta flies to ATL and U
55 Post contains images something : I didn't know AA was that big at EZE. How good would a shiny A380 instead of 2x 772s on this long flight look?
56 aerorobnz : This route is profitable. (possibly the only one) It is probably the reason it is not 3-4 million a week.
57 Gonzalo : Sad, but true. Mariano Recalde, who is currently "in charge" of AR ( since 2009 ), is there just because he is the son of a lawmaker of the same poli
58 Post contains links AR326 : Firstly, to all of those singing the praises of the former Marsans administration, I would like to bring your attention (as perhaps you are unaware) t
59 OB1504 : Wait, what? Surely you mean Aerolineas Argentinas. Aren't there restrictions placed on LAN Argentina in terms of which domestic routes they can serve
60 Post contains links Gonzalo : Are you referring to Mr. Axel Kicillof ? Because he is known by his study of ( and affinity with ) Mr. Marx ... certainly not the best "financial bac
61 ghost77 : Truth or not, the CEO background is important. See in Mexico what happened with Mexicana. Andres Fabre, former COO of MasAir and later on CEO of Volar
62 mandala499 : AR in trouble is nothing new. The unions had gone amok there. But then, Why does it have to be a LAN gloating spree whenever there's talk about how ba
63 Post contains links Gonzalo : Just for your information, the link is in Spanish but you can read it anyway. The position of the people in the Islands is very clear, they will not
64 AR385 : I know their position. Let´s see how it changes when the LAN flight has to become quite more exensive due to the detour it will have to make if Argen
65 MaverickM11 : I meant it's the equivalent of Peru holding onto Aeroperu, instead of having the vibrant, competitive intercontinental hub it has now.
66 MillwallSean : The mentality of AR staff in Buenos Aires is sometimes mindboggling. Its like I should be grateful they are serving me. I cant say I have enjoyed that
67 Arcano : Not quite fair comparison, they do it as demanded by law under their status of Anonymous Society, far from transparency ideals... In fact some few st
68 AA909 : You could quite easily take out "AR" and "Buenos Aires" and replace with "Argentinian" and "all of Argentina"! It's a conflicted country ... slowly b
69 jfk777 : All around Latin America the 21st Century is arriving and the people in Brazil and Chile are enjoying economic fruits. Argentina needs to let YPF dri
70 SJOtoLIR : AR is introducing a couple of new multi-stop routes and operated by Austral as shown: Buenos Aires Ezeiza - Cordoba - Mendoza - Neuquen - Comodoro Riv
71 AR385 : You sure? It could very well be. But, they seem, due to the routing, as part of that government program to use the national airlines on multistop rou
72 Post contains images lightsaber : This is the problem with flag carriers, they are coddled at far too high of a cost. The real test of AR's financial strength will be ILFC's willingnes
73 AR385 : You forget that since AR is owned at over 99% by the government, companies really won´t care about the books, since most lease/credits and such can
74 SJOtoLIR : Think this way: The Argentinean division of LAN is operating a successful amount of domestic routes served from point to point, where this kind of mu
75 AR385 : True. But LAN is a private company. AR is not. And what they are doing resembles what LADE used to do in its heyday.
76 Gonzalo : With all due respect, I think "companies" already knows how reliable can the Argentina's government be, we all learned the lesson "the hard way" in 2
77 AR385 : Get off your high horse already. You started this thread based on an inaccurate news piece by Clarín about info on AR, and you´ve done your utmost
78 Gonzalo : Again killing the messenger. I started this topic expecting a debate about AR, but as you know, the politics and Argentinian authorities are part of
79 jetsetter629 : I thought this flight was already in place. The route was: Buenos Aires - Salta - Mendoza - Bariloche - Buenos Aires
80 2travel2know2 : That route should be quite popular with foreign visitors to Argentina. A stop in IGR between BUE and SLA may make it more attractive.
81 AR326 : There already is a flight that operates between IGR and SLA, part of the so-called "Federal" route. In this debate about what some have called "stran
82 330lover : AR already operates IGR-SLA-MDZ-BRC and vv.
83 Post contains links and images CamiloA380 : First of all, I'd like to thank, AR385, TYCOON, MD11junkie, AR326 and Mandala499. Great replies! Exactly, plus the new maintenance hangar in AEP. Eith
84 Gonzalo : So let's say I give to you 2.,2 million dollars per day to improve the situation, and after a long time you only make small advances, and you don't t
85 Mexicana757 : Shouldn't the citizens of Argentina be complaining instead of you? If the people of Argentina have a problem with AR losing $2 million a day wouldn't
86 AA909 : This is becoming more of a slanging match than a meaningful thread. Saying it louder doesn't make what you're saying any less incorrect. Argentina ha
87 AR326 : HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! Well, I have to say this was one of the most amusing things I'd read in a long time. Thank you for being so entertainin
88 AR385 : "B" falls under the "Highly Speculative" category, not under the "Substantial Risks", "Extremely Speculative" or "In Default with Little Prospect of
89 Post contains images SJOtoLIR : I got the point, but I'm still confused related to the management of AR. We have to take into perspective that these air services aren't an essential
90 AR385 : I agree with you. What you are saying, in theory, is totally correct. But, unfortunately, reality is that state owned companies in general do not and
91 757gb : Don't even get me started on that. I'm no fan of PLUNA as it is managed today, but what was done to them regarding the authorization of routes in Arg
92 Braniff747SP : 2.2 million is a lot of money for an airline that does not have any. Frankly, I'm surprised they are still able to operate with such losses. And every
93 Post contains links and images lightsaber : At best that raises the debt rating to that of the government. If AR were a strong profitable business, it is possible to have a credit rating higher
94 Post contains images mandala499 : So, therefore I'm entitled to think you're on LAN's payroll? Well, AR's "govt subsidy" goes against LAN Argentina... so what? Look above! No, it is n
95 Post contains images Gonzalo : I wish, but I'm not. OK, point taken, 15-0. But the fact is, the management of AR is there only for being family or friend of "the correct people". C
96 haggis73 : From an email I received at work on Friday morning, "Aerolineas Argentinas have advised that they are withdrawing their services at the end of Jun wi
97 Post contains images mandala499 : LOL! Oh, we have a new syndrome now, which I hope won't spread to anywhere else in the airline industry. It's called, let's call in a loudmouthed pil
98 Post contains images Gonzalo : Totally. Sadly I did'nt pick the best way to express myself in previous posts, my brother and mother are coming today ( we will finally reunite after
99 jfk777 : Hasn't the AR bashing and incites reached the End ? Moderator ?
100 ghost77 : About time! MEX will also be cutted out. Good things on AR: going Airbus 4 long haul only. Another important comment was made, AEP and EZE. AEP leave
101 Arcano : I know there's no real comparison, but after all aren't EK or QR state owned? The point is there's no point in assume as fact that state companies sh
102 jfk777 : EK and QR employ very small amounts of their nationals, AR employs 100% Argentine citizens. IF a worker at QR or EK doesn't like it their contract ca
103 ghost77 : In EK you have no contract renewal if you are low qualified. Pilots in EK and QR are flying many more hours than AR's. g77
104 jfk777 : Does AR have many more pilots then it needs ? do pilots fly very few hours ? Any insights appreciated.
105 aussie747 : Past 30 JUN all availability to both SYD and AKL is 0 and marked as waitlist closed .Usually this would mean all flights would be / pending to be canc
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