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Turkey Says No To Israeli Security  
User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11519 times:
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Good morning,


Arkia Israel Airlines, which is planning on launching direct flights from Tel Aviv to Antalya has requested from the Turkish government a specific area designated for security screening.

The Turkish government has turned down the request.

In their letter, Arkia listed the following as conditions for their flights:

- specific security area
- the right to oversee security provisions themselves
- the right to use the security devices themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers.
- 20 free passes for Israeli security officials which would supervize the 4 to 6 flights per week.
- 3 Israeli security officials permanently on call at Antalya airport.
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
- additional space in front of check-ins where they can check luggage.
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.


The Turkish government stated that there are no such designated security areas at Turkish airports, and they do not understand why Arkia needs then when flying into Turkey. The government added that in case Arkia insists on asking for them, they will revoke their flying permit.

I know this is standard security for Israeli airlines, but personally the part, ''...themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers'' shows a clear lack of respect towards the Turkish security forces.

I wounder what will happen and if Arkia will accept the standard security procedures or will they abandon the flights. It would be much easier if Pegasus or Atlasjet took over the market, since they would make the flying experience much nicer.

Was it Copenhagen airport that refused the same? What happened there, did they manage to resolve their issues?

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2740...curity-for-flights-to-antalya.html

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11503 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.

I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
The government added that in case Arkia insists on asking for them, they will revoke their flying permit.

Sounds like the usual crap coming from Turkey these days.



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11464 times:

Kudos to Turkey   


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User currently offlineju068 From Vanuatu, joined Aug 2009, 2642 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 11425 times:
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Quoting TheCol (Reply 1):
I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Why should Turkey pay for additional unnecessary security equipment, for an airport that is mostly used in summer? If the Israeli government is so keen on having those machines why don't they buy them and set them up there. I do not see why the Turkish tax payers should fund Israeli paranoia.


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3636 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11344 times:

If Turkey sees no benefit in spending money to accommodate one airline at an airport that is mostly a seasonal destination, then they are within their rights to refuse. I remember going through security at least twice in Turkish airports so I don't see why their security would be considered insufficient.

User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11163 times:

Israel has a right to request this, and Turkey a right to deny it. That being said, given the inflammatory rhetoric coming from Ankara these days I certainly don't blame the Israelis for being weary of the security their flights will receive in Turkey. I for one think this has more to do with Turkish politics with relation to the rest of the Muslim world - why else would the government leak this to Turkish media? A real shame because nobody wins in this scenario, certainly not the passenger and the tourism industry.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11112 times:

Quoting TheCol (Reply 1):
I don't understand why those can't be made available, since they are already in widespread use.

Um, what? Special rooms for Israeli security people to harass passengers? Since when are those in "widespread use" in Turkey?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 11096 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 6):

You don't think Turkish airports have secondary screening areas?

And harass is a word I associate more with TSA than Israeli security. I find being asked questions far less invasive than a TSA pat down.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10930 times:

Quote:
"Planning to offer four to six flights a week between June and October...(AYT) receives 10 million tourists a year."

Anyone familiar with AYT? Does the airport have sufficient space to afford one airline extra space for less than daily flights? Politics no doubt plays a role but would a lack of space offer a plausible excuse to deny the request? Is AYT security different to IST where your bags get scanned before you enter the terminal?

Would such an offer be based on reciprocity, i.e. if Israeli carriers can set up their own nationals to manage security at foreign airports, does Israel offer foreign carriers the right to do the same in Israel?


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26499 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 10837 times:

Quoting saloman (Reply 7):
And harass is a word I associate more with TSA than Israeli security. I find being asked questions far less invasive than a TSA pat down.

Given my experience with a snot nosed punk of an El Al "security" guy at LAX while plane spotting, I consider it harassment.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6923 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10811 times:

Israel may have unique security worries but I have found the experience of entering and leaving (!) the country deeply offensive. So much so, that I won't be returning. "You make me feel like a criminal for wanting to visit your country," was how I put it (politely) to the young lady who spent over an hour checking all my hotel receipts and restaurant bills last time I tried to fly out of Tel Aviv. I therefore find it hard not to applaud Turkey's stand on this.

User currently offlineTupolev160 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 10747 times:

Because of security harassment, traveling by plane becomes more and more of a hassle and it's becoming like that all over the world. An we, passengers, are paying an average of 50 Eur per ticket for the security procedures they make us go through. Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

[Edited 2012-03-13 03:02:25]

User currently offlineflyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 812 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10591 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 11):
Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

I travelled last year several times to India, did not notice anything more extreme than at other airports.

I guess Turkey has every right to deny other airlines requests, not matter what country they are from. Is Arkia the only Israeli airline flying there? I think i read a TR here on a flight from TLV-AYT.



I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10552 times:

Quoting Tupolev160 (Reply 11):
Besides Israel, we often forget to mention the India as one of the countries enforcing the most-extreme security screening and procedures.

I disagree completely.

Unlike the USA, India does not give all its passengers cancer by using x-ray technology to scan people.. While a pat-down is required, it's usually not particularly intrusive. In fact, usually pat-downs at malls are more intrusive than those at the airport....

Also, India does not profile against brown people, something that annoys me greatly at USA airports... No hourlong questioning sessions in back rooms for having a funny sounding name either....



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1205 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 10451 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 13):
Unlike the USA, India does not give all its passengers cancer by using x-ray technology to scan people.. While a pat-down is required, it's usually not particularly intrusive. In fact, usually pat-downs at malls are more intrusive than those at the airport....

Also, India does not profile against brown people, something that annoys me greatly at USA airports... No hourlong questioning sessions in back rooms for having a funny sounding name either....

This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
In their letter, Arkia listed the following as conditions for their flights:

- specific security area
- the right to oversee security provisions themselves
- the right to use the security devices themselves in order to ensure safety for their passengers.
- 20 free passes for Israeli security officials which would supervize the 4 to 6 flights per week.
- 3 Israeli security officials permanently on call at Antalya airport.
- Modification of the security procedure by introducing widespread use of x-ray machines.
- additional space in front of check-ins where they can check luggage.
- private rooms where they can question suspicious passengers.

I don't think these are unreasonable requests provided Arkia and/or Israel provides the funding. Turkey stands to benefit from this service and if they aren't asked to fund those requests, then their objections are purely subjective. However, dozens of airports in dozens of countries around the world have dealt with these same requests and have implemented them. Irrespective of the fact that these demands require a lot from AYT, if they want the service they'll have to play ball like the rest of us. In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10381 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
I don't think these are unreasonable requests provided Arkia and/or Israel provides the funding. Turkey stands to benefit from this service and if they aren't asked to fund those requests, then their objections are purely subjective. However, dozens of airports in dozens of countries around the world have dealt with these same requests and have implemented them. Irrespective of the fact that these demands require a lot from AYT, if they want the service they'll have to play ball like the rest of us. In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.

You said "If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here." I think you should take a page from your own book and accept that, if Israeli tourists and airlines do not want to, they are free to avoid Turkey. If Turkish authorities believe that the security procedures are enough and do not want to cave in to Arkia just so they can get a few thousand more tourists, then Arkia is free to impose its requests and fly to other neighboring countries like Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Sudan.... It's not who pays for these security measures, but who has jurisdiction at a Turkish airport. A 3 minute interview during boarding is one thing, a separate interrrogation room is another.


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6923 posts, RR: 63
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10381 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
In my opinion, Turkey is likely facing political pressure from neighboring states (particularly now) and the perception that they might be "giving in" won't sit too well with some.

Said neighbouring states being...? Seems to me that Israel has successfully burned its bridges with Turkey without any "neighbouring" states needing to be involved or invoked.

Back on topic, does El Al (or Arkia) fly to any other Turkish airports and, if so, do they enjoy these privileges?


User currently offlineatcsundevil From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1205 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 10239 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 15):

You're right, but based on what I said, this all depends on how badly Turkey wants the service and if it's in their best interest to support such a venture. Do I think Turkey can adequately manage a security checkpoint? Of course I do. Should they cater to Israeli security demands? Depends, because like you said, it is sovereign Turkish soil where Israeli law enforcement have no jurisdiction, but you also can't fault a carrier wanting to go a step further to improve security. And it does matter who pays for this because this burden should not be on the airport, it should be on the airline and the country demanding these things be implemented. If we're talking about a spare room and a few metal detectors, that's one thing; but depending on the layout of the available space in the airport, some of those demands could require a significant remodel of the terminal that could cost some real money.

Quoting PM (Reply 16):

Neighboring states being Muslim allies in the region, obviously -- not to say that's all that's important to them -- Turkey also has a great interest in appeasing Europe, too. Of course Israel has burned bridges with many countries, but burning bridges doesn't count for much when there's money involved...that's the first chapter in any economics book. Aviation brings together different countries/regions that is virtually unrivaled by any other industry; if this flight means economic growth for Turkey, then burned bridges become less significant.


User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10079 times:

Quoting saloman (Reply 5):
Israel has a right to request this

Israel has no legal or specific right to request anything outside its own sovereign jurisdiction.

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.

There are plenty of "brown" Americans who have lodged similar complaints. Being Indian or non-American has nothing to do with the issue.



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 10033 times:

Quoting atcsundevil (Reply 14):
This is off-topic in so many ways. If you're convinced TSA profiles "brown" people and it bothers you, then don't come...no one is forcing you to fly here. I flew out of EWR this morning and saw plenty of "brown" people not being harassed; I'm a white guy and I got the pat-down. I must have gotten profiled.
Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 18):
There are plenty of "brown" Americans who have lodged similar complaints. Being Indian or non-American has nothing to do with the issue.

I'm an American passport holder (Overseas Citizen of India), who lived in the USA for over 10 years... Kinda hard to avoid the TSA when I have to deal with them to fly out of my home city  



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3106 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9847 times:

So, let me get this straight. Some of you think Israel has a right to have additional screening features in nearly every airport it wishes (out of concern for security)? OK. It seems fair. Now, I wonder how many of you actually embraced the idea of the full body scanner from the TSA? Isn't that for security purposes as well?

So it's OK for Israel to have private screening rooms (but that's not for harassment even though I can bet that many of the people that will land there will be Muslims), but it's not OK for the TSA to have them or to submit people for a patdown or even the full body scanner?

IF, and only if, Israel is willing to pay for the additional screening, then I don't see any reason not to have these measures. However, the final word still rests with Turkey and to ask for additional security methods implies lack of faith in Turkey's security.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinepalmjet From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1223 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9669 times:

I read somewhere that El Al made similar requests when it was proposing to fly to Australia but the Australian authorities, like Turkey, said no way. In particular, they wanted to have their own security staff. In a nutshell, the authorities in Australia said something like - you either accept our security protocols or you don't fly here. Simple.


Eastern - Number One To The Sun
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9615 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
I wonder how many of you actually embraced the idea of the full body scanner from the TSA? Isn't that for security purposes as well?

Israeli security isnt a carcinogen.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 20):
So it's OK for Israel to have private screening rooms (but that's not for harassment even though I can bet that many of the people that will land there will be Muslims), but it's not OK for the TSA to have them or to submit people for a patdown or even the full body scanner?

The big difference is that EL AL profiles, the TSA doesnt. So the TSA bans cupcakes, pats down 7 year olds etc. In fact not a single act of terrorism has been foiled by the TSA. EL AL's profiling program has indeed foiled acts of terrorism including an attempt to bomb Lockerbie style a 747 from LHR is 1986. As for mulism, I doubt many fly EL AL and they arent the ones to be on the look out for. Young anglo women traveling alone are actually one of the biggest threats as they are the ones most easily dumped into carrying a bomb aboard.

What the TSA does is "security theater". What EL AL does is actual security.


User currently offlineflaps30 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 287 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9389 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 3):
I do not see why the Turkish tax payers should fund Israeli paranoia.

I would hardly call trying to protect your citizens and your country "paranoia". We all know that Israel's enemies will try to exploit any opening possible to do harm and that opening could easily come from an airport inside Turkey.



every day is a good day to fly
User currently offlinePellegrine From France, joined Mar 2007, 2449 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 9367 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 22):
Young anglo women traveling alone are actually one of the biggest threats as they are the ones most easily dumped into carrying a bomb aboard.

According to whom? So they would be advised to avoiding El-Al too?

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 22):
What EL AL does is actual security.

Including all the profiling, discrimination, invasion of privacy, and harassment you can't even imagine.



oh boy!!!
25 ju068 : I do not see why the Turks are the bad guys in this story. Arkia doesn't intend on flying daily so why should they bother with all the things they are
26 UALWN : Or in a hotel inside Turkey... If the Israelis do not trust the airport security in Antalya's airport, why should they trust the police forces in Ant
27 kl911 : I cant of understand Arkia, or any other airline for that matter. Turkish security is not what it should be, looking at the numerous bombings in the c
28 ju068 : Are you saying that security is bad in cities such as London, Stockholm, Madrid ... just because terrorists bombed a few public places like they did
29 flaps30 : The Israelis do what they have to do in order to protect and survive. So they profile, whats the big deal? At least they dont try to hide the fact. W
30 Semaex : Paranoia is a point of view. You may say paranoia, and personally I say it too, but facts show that Israeli airliners have a larger "accident" rate t
31 Pellegrine : Sometimes a person's opinions reveal more about themselves than they intend to. I can't personally say much for anyone who dismisses and excuses prof
32 q120 : Everyone who is against Arkia or Israel for that matter should understand that Turkey has been very hostile towards Israel in the last couple of years
33 TurkishWings : I think the decision of Turkey is more economic than political here. As with any other business, if there is a demand for a certain product/service, t
34 fahadmk : Have you ever been sent to the side for no reason other than the color of your skin, interrogated for 3 hours, and missed your connection... on a 1 d
35 flaps30 : All I am saying is that this is not the 1950's anymore and Ozzie and Harriet is a long forgotten memory. This is an extremely sick, violent, and twis
36 TK787 : Besides the usual political mumbo jumbo on threads about Israel and Turkey, here are some facts; -AYT is not a "summer-only" airport. Serving over 25M
37 gokmengs : I can't believe how certain topics are so explosive on anet, and as I see the direction this thread is going to be locked soon. Before we jump to poli
38 Centre : Turkey is a sovereign country, and Turkish airports are no different. Most likely, the Turks see these requests as a Mossad front office, that will r
39 Post contains images Semaex : Top targets for terrorism? Please explain your answer, because as far as facts are concerned, those three nations are not in the crossfire of ongoing
40 SA7700 : This thread is about airport-and airline security. Please do not hijack this thread into an off-topic political debate about Israel and other countrie
41 pnd100 : Pakistan, Iraq & Afghanistan may have a larger number of incidents but they do not have the international travel traffic that India, Israel &
42 flaps30 : Unfortunately, this is what it has come down to in todays world. Believe it or not, I wish it were different. I wish we could all travel and experien
43 pnd100 : This is sad to hear & with due respect flaps30 it is not necessary. I understand the desire for security but it needs to be balanced with liberty
44 Post contains links Quokkas : It would actually appear that the Turkish Government should demand extra security at airports from which they fly. 2006: Turkish Airlines Flight 1476,
45 YTZ : So you are arguing that an agency of the US government should actively discriminate against US citizens on the basis of their skin colour? Why not go
46 cuban8 : No matter what the reason might be for rejecting the Arkia request (economical, political or both), I fail to recognize the "big" problem. Arkia has t
47 Quokkas : Thank you for your reply. I have flown from IST but only ever been to Antalya overland and by sea, so was unfamiliar with conditions at the airport.
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