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CVG Terminal 3 Future?  
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5592 times:

Hi all, this is my second overall post on A.net (first topic) but I've been a regular visitor for some time now. I ran a search and couldn't find anything on this recently.

Is there any news coming from CVG on when the renovations to Concourse A will be finished and opened? Also are there any airlines considering taking over from where DL left?
Obviously with the economy being in the tank, I'm sure CVG is probably one of the last places airlines would want to start additional ops, but what do you think?

IIRC, DL has the lease on Concourse C (the former OH hub) until 2025. Do you think that could be given back to the airport, like Concourse A was?

Thanks, Zach


次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerafflesking From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5522 times:

Welcome to a.net!

The renovations on Concourse A are slated to be finished this summer. The concourse will also be expanded to about 20 gates (I can't remember how many prior).

At least in the foreseeable future, I can't imagine the Kenton County Airport Authority pushing Delta to return Concourse C to them. There is just too much vacant space that they may as well keep collecting lease income while they can.

I don't expect you'll see too much of a ramp up from any airlines at CVG. WN seems just fine serving the market from neighboring cities (DAY, IND, CMH and SDF). US just added DCA service - and little adds like this are probably the best they can hope for.


User currently offlineRockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5423 times:

Check these out:


http://www.cvgairport.com/about/news...17af18-5485-4101-97bc-38791cc02896

(note FAQs and renderings)

http://www.msaarch.com/portfolio/msa-lifestyle/cvg-concourse-a

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...10270316/First-glimpse-Concourse-A


I'm not overly optimistic with regards to commercial flights, but DHL is expanding!!!

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...ssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

http://www.cvgairport.com/about/news...f6cc0d-4f40-41d8-813e-e4fb2ff5b520


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

First, concourse C should be torn down. It was progressive for its time, but completely outdated and serves no use anymore.

For concourse A, it totally makes sense for all non-Delta aligned carriers to move and close terminal 2. However, as a side note, I love the convenience of terminal 2, but hate the windows!!

What I am surprised about is that they felt they needed to update concourse A. It was nice before. Add some paint and new carpet and call it a day.

With the economy in the tank and airport finances stretched as thin as they are, was spending milliions of dollars worth it? Luxurious bathrooms?

BTW, it looks like in the sketches UA is running a 777!!


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5312 times:

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 1):
I don't expect you'll see too much of a ramp up from any airlines at CVG. WN seems just fine serving the market from neighboring cities (DAY, IND, CMH and SDF).

Yeah that's been the general conversation for a while, unfortunately.

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 1):
At least in the foreseeable future, I can't imagine the Kenton County Airport Authority pushing Delta to return Concourse C to them. There is just too much vacant space that they may as well keep collecting lease income while they can.
Quoting seatback (Reply 3):
First, concourse C should be torn down. It was progressive for its time, but completely outdated and serves no use anymore.

So two differing opinions I see. IMO, I think Concourse C could be upgraded/used for regional jet traffic from US / UA, given those two expand more into mainline service. By renovating, I mean decreasing the number of gates down, constructing jet bridges, etc. Except, in reality, that sounds way too expensive for Kenton County to want to handle.

Quoting seatback (Reply 3):
For concourse A, it totally makes sense for all non-Delta aligned carriers to move and close terminal 2. However, as a side note, I love the convenience of terminal 2, but hate the windows!!

What I am surprised about is that they felt they needed to update concourse A. It was nice before. Add some paint and new carpet and call it a day.


Perhaps this is to make CVG more attractive to other carriers?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3738 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4868 times:

How many gates will the non-Delta carriers use in Concourse A? There's not close to enough service from the others to fill even half of A, is there?


Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineRockyRacoon From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 966 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 4740 times:

Terminal 2 is a tight squeeze with 8 gates right now. If I recall correctly, AA has three, UA three, and US 2. I believe AC flies out a UA gate. Granted only one daily flight is mainline, but each airline could do with a little extra space. I've seen multiple flights using the same gate (which isn't necessary wrong in and of itself). CVG also has a fair amount of overnights. Point in fact, there is absolutely no room for growth following the status quo. The renovated concourse A will have about 20 gates, which is overkill for 2012 traffic.

User currently offlineboeingavionics From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 1 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

I have first hand knowledge of the following information in terminal 3 concourse A American eagle is planning on having 6 gates. the will be three on each side closest to the underground tram side of the concourse. the opening date is scheduled to be mothers day 2012. the new jet ways are being installed and all work is scheduled to be done by the end of April. terminal 3 concourse C the one Comair used to use is to be torn down due to lack of up keep and the fact that the underground fuel system has not been maintained. I do not know how many gates USAir or United are scheduled to get at this time. also i should be noted there are currently no American main line flight in or out of CVG. that might change after American comes out of bankruptcy. PS there is a long stand rumor that south west might acquire Comair but its just a rumor at this point. (most likely wishful thinking on Comair's part.

User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3798 times:

Quoting boeingavionics (Reply 7):
PS there is a long stand rumor that south west might acquire Comair but its just a rumor at this point. (most likely wishful thinking on Comair's part.

So I was totally believing your info until you posted this. I would imagine AA won't need anymore than 4 gates.


User currently offlinerafflesking From Singapore, joined Mar 2007, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 8):
So I was totally believing your info until you posted this.

  

Seriously - if WN doesn't want to keep the 717s, why would they even spend more than 3 seconds talking about acquiring a whole bunch of CRJs.

And I also still can't imagine Kenton County even touching Terminal 3 as long as DL's lease payments offset any existing maintenance costs.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3479 times:

Quoting RockyRacoon (Reply 6):
The renovated concourse A will have about 20 gates, which is overkill for 2012 traffic.

So I take it once the economy ramps up again, we might see an increase in flights out of CC-A again?

Quoting rafflesking (Reply 9):
if WN doesn't want to keep the 717s, why would they even spend more than 3 seconds talking about acquiring a whole bunch of CRJs.

Because CRJs are so much more manageable, right?   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

I'm wondering if the exisitng airlines might pick up a few more gates in the new terminal. There will be plenty of room for expansion and some new entrants. Perhaps maybe NK, F9, or B6 might come in with a few flights too now that there will be the gate space. Did I hear at one point they want to tear down both Terminals 1 and 2?

Quoting seatback (Reply 3):
First, concourse C should be torn down. It was progressive for its time, but completely outdated and serves no use anymore.

For concourse A, it totally makes sense for all non-Delta aligned carriers to move and close terminal 2. However, as a side note, I love the convenience of terminal 2, but hate the windows!!

What I am surprised about is that they felt they needed to update concourse A. It was nice before. Add some paint and new carpet and call it a day.

With the economy in the tank and airport finances stretched as thin as they are, was spending milliions of dollars worth it? Luxurious bathrooms?

BTW, it looks like in the sketches UA is running a 777!!

the last time I was through CVG back in 2009 you could really tell a difference between A & B. A to me seemed like it had more of a dated 80's, early 90s look while B seemed more modern so I am glad they are overhauling A. Wasnt A built before B? I agree though C needs to be torn down, there really is no functional use for it unless some puddle jumper / commuter operator like Great Lakes comes in there with a substantial operation and I dont see that happening at all.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3103 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 11):
Did I hear at one point they want to tear down both Terminals 1 and 2?

Yes you heard correctly and I'm currently struggling to find the source which I heard it from (possibly local news in Cincinnati.)

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 11):
Wasnt A built before B?

Yes it was, but I'm not 100% sure about the difference in time between the two.

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 11):
there really is no functional use for it unless some puddle jumper / commuter operator like Great Lakes comes in there with a substantial operation and I dont see that happening at all.

with 79 gates (i think) for CRJs/other RJs, if the city had a large O&D ops, other airlines AND DL could share Concourse C for RJ ops. But 79 gates, and the fact that you had to have taken that shuttle bus, is quite a bit. Perhaps (this could be far off in the future) a separate Concourse for RJs, or, renovate one end of Concourse A or B so it's specifically built for RJs, instead of using Jet Bridges?

just some thought



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1553 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
with 79 gates (i think) for CRJs/other RJs, if the city had a large O&D ops, other airlines AND DL could share Concourse C for RJ ops. But 79 gates, and the fact that you had to have taken that shuttle bus, is quite a bit. Perhaps (this could be far off in the future) a separate Concourse for RJs, or, renovate one end of Concourse A or B so it's specifically built for RJs, instead of using Jet Bridges?

just some thought

I remember seeing some airport master plan or something around 2005-6 that planned for a new RJ Concouse D oriented north-south roughly where T1 or T2 is now. I remember that the train was supposed to be connected via an L turn, but I don't remember where I saw that or whether it is still in the works.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3734 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
Yes it was, but I'm not 100% sure about the difference in time between the two.

Concourse A was built in 1974 as part of the original Terminal 3, while Concourse B opened in 1992 along with the train and the current Terminal 3 ticketing hall.



Primary Airport: FWA/Alternate Airport: DTW/Not employed by the FWACAA or their partners
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3033 times:

It would be entirely feasible to use the west side of A (the former A1-A12) for the short term and the east side could be shuttered for a time until which time it would be worth having services and gates there. It could even be done in stages...sort of "push it out" as needed. At the top of the escalator to the left is A1--and a gate house big enough for a barn dance. To the right at the "crossing" you have 2 & 3 to the left and 4 & 5 to the right. Then up the ramp you would have access to another set of double gates on either side. That would more than accommodate the current users and still leave most of the east side open for future tenants.

From when I am on the employee bus and it passes A, the new jet bridges look to be further apart--though that could be a trick of the eye b/c for so long they were turned sideways and the ramps were added for the RJ ops. There are some gates where new jetways have not been installed.

There was talk of a "New T1" on the footprint of T1/T2 when DL was still running a hub at CVG and the "New T1" was going to simply replace the two older buildings. It was intended to be RJ favorable per se with a limited number of "full size" gates for ML sized a/c as the vast majority of other airlines in CVG were RJ ops. (Though UA tends to throw a 737/320 in on an RON at times. It was initially going to be stand alone and have landside access but not airside. That may have changed at some point.



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2753 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

I took sort of a look at this situation, and one of the things that are sticking out to me is that CVG only has the four major legacy airlines, and AC Jazz, that provide service there. This is 5 airlines there, and I would think this is probably the least amount of carriers at any major airport in the U.S.?

This then leaves me thinking that....... do they really need to do anything there?

 


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
Concourse A was built in 1974 as part of the original Terminal 3, while Concourse B opened in 1992 along with the train and the current Terminal 3 ticketing hall.

How were pax transported to concourse A back then?

Quoting point2point (Reply 16):
This is 5 airlines there, and I would think this is probably the least amount of carriers at any major airport in the U.S.?

This then leaves me thinking that....... do they really need to do anything there?

Ask the Cincinnati business community (especially Chiquita up until recently) what they think about this   



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineB727FA From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2928 times:

Ask Cincinnati why they deserve a hub at all. They hated Delta with the hub; they hate Delta when the hub is gone. They have never understood the requirement for O&D and that they can't go to outlying cities "just to connect in CVG--Delta is sooooo stupid" and expect the company to not redeploy assets where it can make money.

Reap what you sow...



My comments/opinions are my own and are not to be construed as the opinion(s) of my employer.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting B727FA (Reply 18):
They hated Delta with the hub; they hate Delta when the hub is gone.

A lot of us really were upset with the excessive fares they charged, which is why for a long time, a lot of us went to SDF, DAY, and IND. When DL lowered the fares in 2009, that's when they started cutting flights.

you do raise a good point, however.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting RockyRacoon (Reply 6):
CVG also has a fair amount of overnights. Point in fact, there is absolutely no room for growth following the status quo

   exactly. It may sound ridiculous with all the empty space after the DL cuts, but there currently is no room for expansion in T2. Things will get much more interesting regarding future air service by other carriers once concourse A opens and there's room for growth/additions

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 17):
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 14):
Concourse A was built in 1974 as part of the original Terminal 3, while Concourse B opened in 1992 along with the train and the current Terminal 3 ticketing hall.

How were pax transported to concourse A back then?

Basically the old T3 was identical to T2, and when DL hubbed CVG, they built the concourse A extension perpendicular to the original pier of gates. When T3 was completely overhauled, they tore down the old check-in area and original pier of gates connecting it to concourse A, built the current land-side terminal, concourse B and the underground train connecting everything.

Quoting B727FA (Reply 18):
Ask Cincinnati why they deserve a hub at all. They hated Delta with the hub; they hate Delta when the hub is gone. They have never understood the requirement for O&D and that they can't go to outlying cities "just to connect in CVG--Delta is sooooo stupid" and expect the company to not redeploy assets where it can make money.

Reap what you sow...

meh...ignorance of local media and politicians. The same thing is going on in MEM and many other hub cities. When the hub is thriving, it's just a populist position to stand back and criticize the high airfares necessary to sustain the hub, and when the airlines cut service, to criticize the airlines for reducing flights.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 764 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 12):
But 79 gates, and the fact that you had to have taken that shuttle bus, is quite a bit. Perhaps (this could be far off in the future) a separate Concourse for RJs, or, renovate one end of Concourse A or B so it's specifically built for RJs, instead of using Jet Bridges?

79 gates makes it sound huge and that CVG should try to attract another airline. The facility was one of the first terminals built for regional jet/airline use. Like I stated, it was progressive at the time. Today, it's a dinosaur. Two huge departure holding areas gave you the feel of a bus station with a Brooks Brothers thrown in.

I may be wrong, but separate regional terminals seem to be a thing of the past. Now days, you frequently see a CRJ sitting next to a 767 etc... Airlines have seem to meld the ops together in many places (i.e. SLC).

I'd be surprised to see terminal one torn down with the admin offices and the FedEx gates.


User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2282 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 2777 times:

Quoting seatback (Reply 21):

79 gates makes it sound huge and that CVG should try to attract another airline. The facility was one of the first terminals built for regional jet/airline use. Like I stated, it was progressive at the time. Today, it's a dinosaur. Two huge departure holding areas gave you the feel of a bus station with a Brooks Brothers thrown in.

I may be wrong, but separate regional terminals seem to be a thing of the past. Now days, you frequently see a CRJ sitting next to a 767 etc... Airlines have seem to meld the ops together in many places (i.e. SLC).

I'd be surprised to see terminal one torn down with the admin offices and the FedEx gates.

this is very true, at the time C opened at CVG it was a one of a kind facility. But then came along terminals like the C concourse at DTW (NWA now DL), Concourse G at ORD (AA), C, A & B at MSP (NWA now DL), and Terminal B at DFW (AA) etc etc and Concourse C at CVG quickly became outdated. These newer facilities allowed jet bridge boarding and their own gates for ERJ's and CRJ's and kind of blended in the mainline/express experience to make it more seamless. C at CVG very much felt like a bus station kind of experience.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7401 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 22):

this is very true, at the time C opened at CVG it was a one of a kind facility. But then came along terminals like the C concourse at DTW (NWA now DL), Concourse G at ORD (AA), C, A & B at MSP (NWA now DL), and Terminal B at DFW (AA) etc etc and Concourse C at CVG quickly became outdated. These newer facilities allowed jet bridge boarding and their own gates for ERJ's and CRJ's and kind of blended in the mainline/express experience to make it more seamless. C at CVG very much felt like a bus station kind of experience.
Quoting seatback (Reply 21):
Two huge departure holding areas gave you the feel of a bus station with a Brooks Brothers thrown in.

you guys have a point, often times I'd find myself getting lost at C trying to find a gate which was simply across the hall.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
meh...ignorance of local media and politicians.

That's why I don't watch the news anymore (even with me living in PHX)   

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
it's just a populist position to stand back and criticize the high airfares necessary to sustain the hub,

I see, but what was it that made CVG so expensive, especially for DL to operate out of?

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
Basically the old T3 was identical to T2, and when DL hubbed CVG, they built the concourse A extension perpendicular to the original pier of gates.


I see, Thanks. I was born before all of this stuff happened.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineflyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1906 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
it's just a populist position to stand back and criticize the high airfares necessary to sustain the hub,

I see, but what was it that made CVG so expensive, especially for DL to operate out of?

Well I have my own opinions on that whole issue which I won't go into extreme detail about. I understand that the hub carrier requires a certain premium on airfares at the hub city which I accept, but DL got totally out of hand at CVG. Airfares on DL were usually triple what other carriers offered and they really created the current travel dynamic in the Cincinnati area sending people fleeing to the surrounding airports, often times it was cheaper to drive to DAY or SDF and connect back through CVG to the flight you wanted which is just financially ridiculous. DL finally started getting more reasonable about airfares when FL in DAY nabbed one of their P&G contracts to shuttle employees to BOS. Of course the rest is history though as a few years later DL merged with NW.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 23):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 20):
Basically the old T3 was identical to T2, and when DL hubbed CVG, they built the concourse A extension perpendicular to the original pier of gates.


I see, Thanks. I was born before all of this stuff happened.


It was kind of before my time as well, but departedflights.com has some old diagrams of the airport layout which are interesting.

Quoting RockyRacoon (Reply 2):
I'm not overly optimistic with regards to commercial flights, but DHL is expanding!!!

I just saw the news about it, this is excellent! DHL is a tremendous asset to CVG and has definitely softened the blow from all the DL cuts.


25 Post contains images PHX787 : it's really great seeing 744s at CVG, even if they are cargo jets. And thanks for the info on pricing. Makes a whole lot more sense now, unfortunatel
26 slcdeltarumd11 : Delta has leases till 2025 and the airport should make them pay until then so they have to keep concourse C up. I guess in the big picture it was a go
27 RockyRacoon : And ironically 9/27's 2000 ft extension will be put use after all.
28 Post contains links CIDFlyer : here is a link to an article that has some good info on how the CVG hub ran with the high airfares, and how it began to decline http://news.cincinnat
29 msp747 : Looking at the layout of the airport, I think it is smart to consolidate into Concourse A. Honestly, I think they should tear down terminal's 1 and 2
30 FWAERJ : When I looked at some old CVG terminal maps, it looked like there was a walkway of some sort between the original Terminal 3 and what is now Concours
31 PHX787 : These days, it's more "when," not "if." Thanks! quite informative. Looks like the combination was slated to fail from the beginning. What I'm really
32 rafflesking : Fair...but it's manageable. I work for the Cincy's largest multinational corporation and DL still serves all of our key domestic locations nonstop fr
33 CIDFlyer : no problem! I thought it was a pretty well written article and informative to what happened at CVG. I always liked CVG as it was less congested and f
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