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LH Possible Launch Customer Of 787-10X  
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24608 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...be-787-10x-launch-customer-369681/

Quite a surprise. I wonder what Airbus´ reaction will be.

97 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24492 times:

I am saying this for years   It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service.
They were reluctant to order the A350 or smaller variant of the 787 for years even with other airlines placing huge orders.
Also the 787-10 with GE engine would offer commonality with their 747-8I fleet.

[Edited 2012-03-20 04:26:01]


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineZKOKQ From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24404 times:

Makes perfect sense for the LH fleet if true.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8341 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24407 times:
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Lufthansa as a 787-10 launch customer, who say that one coming ? This would be welcome news in Seattle.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24320 times:

I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

This said I give it a 50% chance to be true.


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24239 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

same here, too bad...



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 24221 times:

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
I cannot get the original article, seems like deleted?

Same here...

I'm still holding out hope for QF... A 787-10X in the early 2020's would be a perfectly timed as a replacement for the A333 fleet, and those 744's still flying into Asia.


User currently offlinen1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24086 times:

Quoting na (Thread starter):
Quite a surprise. I wonder what Airbus´ reaction will be.

Get the article yanked?


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8997 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24075 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Link doesn't work for me... Anybody experience the same?


  

[Edited 2012-03-20 04:49:51]


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinerobffm2 From Germany, joined Dec 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 24076 times:

Up to now nothing on the Lufthansa group site:

http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/home.html


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23973 times:

Article is gone. Wonder why, intervention, misquote, false? Very odd.

User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23894 times:

Its back up (at least for me)

Quote:
Lufthansa and Air Lease Corp (ALC) are vying for launch customer status on Boeing's proposed stretched 787-10X.

Nico Buchholz, Lufthansa senior vice-president of corporate fleet, sees the aircraft as an ideal fit for the carrier as the airframe is not over-optimised to fly further than necessary for its route network.

The carrier has conducted extended evaluations of both the 280-seat 787-9 and 323-seat 787-10X to fill the approximately 200-to-300-seat fleet segment that is currently occupied by the Airbus A330-300, A340-300 and A340-600.


User currently offlinen1786b From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 559 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23878 times:

It is back up

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...be-787-10x-launch-customer-369681/


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8997 posts, RR: 76
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23858 times:
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Wow, that would be cool.

Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineSASMD82 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 748 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23797 times:
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With nearly 900 787s on order, is it wise to order 787s? I mean, isn't the order book filled until - let's say - 2018?
Isn't the 787-10 still a paper plane? Where is the X standing for?

Anyway, if the news is true, Airbus will have a lot of homework to do......


User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4395 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23780 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s.

Given the current speed of progress for the 787s, that means the A340 still will fly many years...


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8997 posts, RR: 76
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23783 times:
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Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 14):
With nearly 900 787s on order, is it wise to order 787s? I mean, isn't the order book filled until - let's say - 2018?

The 346s aren't too old, so maybe getting rid of them by 2018 and getting the 787 could be an option.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23665 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Wow, that would be cool.

Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.


User currently offlineBlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1876 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23647 times:

Reading between the lines, I'd guess the 787-10X would replace all A340-300s and eventually A330-300s at Lufthansa. Larger A340-600s would probably be replaced by A350-1000s. The rest at the upper end is already taken care of by 747-8i and A380-800.


STOP TERRORRUSSIA!!!
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8997 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23652 times:
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Quoting na (Reply 17):
The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.

Some of the 343s are already pretty old and some are sold. The 346s are still quite new, but in 8 years they are not particular new anymore and maybe are subject to be replaced as well.
And that seems to fit perfectly when the 787 will be available for LH in 8+ years.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23614 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Wow, that would be cool.

I know what you gonna fly after the 747  
Quoting na (Reply 17):
The 787-10X wont be available in numbers before the end of the decade, by then almost all of LHs A340-300 can be considered old (the youngest is from 2001), so that would be a natural replacement. What is surprising is that also the younger A330s are mentioned to be likely replacement candidates. A340-600s replacement will likely not happen before 2020, depending on fuel price developments.

In the article they also mention now the 787-9 which was not mentioned before.

From an enthusiast stand point -although prefering quads over twins - the 787-10 and -9 in LH colors will be great looking aircraft.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4723 posts, RR: 39
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23576 times:
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Quoting wilco737 (Reply 19):
And that seems to fit perfectly when the 787 will be available for LH in 8+ years


I think so too. The B787-10 would fit perfectly since LH has the A380 and the B748i as top passenger aircraft.

For airliners without these VLA's, the A359 might be the better choice due to its longer range capability. But for LH this would be a very logical choice. That is after Boeing officially decides to launch the B787-10 and if LH will put their money where there mouth (at present) is.  .


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7062 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23523 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 21):
That is after Boeing officially decides to launch the B787-10 and if LH will put their money where there mouth (at present) is.

I am very confident with that if that article has it sources right, I believe LH will order it. They said similar things about the CSeries and the 747-8I and have ordered them both.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinepanais From Cyprus, joined May 2008, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23486 times:

Would Airbus be willing to create the A333NEO by that time (2018 or sooner) at much lower cost and fleet commonality? There are 15 A333, 26 A343 and 24 A346, not to mention the 18 MD-11. For an order of this size, it would make sense to Airbus and get to keep the client for this segment.

User currently offlinefrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1584 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 23442 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 1):
I am saying this for years It makes perfect sense, LH does not want to be dependant on only manufacturer with the retirement of the 737 they will only have the 747 in service.
They were reluctant to order the A350 or smaller variant of the 787 for years even with other airlines placing huge orders.

Yes you did indeed   Still, I always thought Airbus designed the A350XWB with LH in mind (and SQ), just like they did the A380 with BA in mind. So, I wouldn't be too sure yet... We saw how hard Airbus fought for the BA A380 order.

Still, LH seems to want the 787-10 for a specific purpose:

Quoting Polot (Reply 11):
Nico Buchholz, Lufthansa senior vice-president of corporate fleet, sees the aircraft as an ideal fit for the carrier as the airframe is not over-optimised to fly further than necessary for its route network.

But, if Wilco737 is correct (and he should be  )
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 13):
Looks like LH wants to get rid od all the 340s. Big changes happen at LH.

LH still would aircraft in that size for routes the 787-10 can't handle. We could see both the 787 as well as the A350(-1000?) in LH's fleet.

787-10, A350-1000, 747-8, A380... looks good   

Which other airlines would be candidates for a large 787-10 order? I'm thinking of CX (to replace older Dragonair A330's and/or their own non-ER 773's).



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E90,F50/7
25 fcogafa : Cue the next thread - 'B787-10 - A330 killer?'.....(!)
26 KC135TopBoom : It did work for me.
27 Ronaldo747 : Wow that would be great and exciting news.
28 kl911 : I know LH group doesnt want to rely on just one manufacturer, but wouldnt the A350 make more sense because of the commonality with the A330 and A340?
29 Chrisba777er : Makes perfect sense - I thought it would be 789, A359 and A3510 but in many ways this is even better. LH 7810X will be a stunning looking bird. Congra
30 USAF336TFS : The article certainly makes it sound more then 50% chance. This would be a coup for Boeing. Yes you have been saying it for years and it has been rum
31 qf002 : I disagree. I think it was Boeing's order to lose...
32 seabosdca : Seems like a great decision. LH (like most European airlines) flies a lot of medium-range routes and very few near-ULH ones. The 787-10 should have un
33 USAF336TFS : Everyone has a right to their opinion, but as Columba and I have been saying for years to all those who swore that LH would become an all AIrbus carr
34 Stitch : I imagine the X is because Boeing is still finalizing the design specs. Boeing is still tweaking the weights, but realistically, the 787-10X will hav
35 qf002 : Absolutely... So why describe it as a coup? Boeing is the company with the superior product in this case, and LH's intentions regarding their fleet h
36 Gingersnap : Well where did you even get that impression from anyway? The fact they ordered 747-8i aircraft disproved that theory a long time ago. LH don't forget
37 Stitch : As one of those who believe(d) that LH would fly all-Airbus if they could, my opinion was they took the 747-8 because it was the only model that fit
38 USAF336TFS : This is why... And Stitch is one of the most respected forum contributors out there... Even though he'll be proven wrong on this one. And you can do
39 sabenapilot : Yet the one does not exclude the other, especially not for an airline with such a huge long haul network and with several sister airlines to consider
40 Post contains images Stitch : Agreed. I did think LH would find a home for the 787 in some of the Group's other carriers. I could see the 787-9 as the A340-300 replacement, the 78
41 sv11 : Lufthansa will probably order more a330-300s to replace older a340-300 as their seat count is the same and replace the a330 with 787. Their a340-600 w
42 rotating14 : I wonder if LH and Airbus have discussed the A330S and what did they (LH) think of it to be at this stage of discussions with Boeing regarding the 787
43 Gingersnap : I know how respected Stitch is, and I respect him views and opinions as much as the next person. My point was if you look at the nature of LH as a gr
44 jet-lagged : Boeing will have three 787 lines discharging aeroplanes soon - two in Everett including the surge line and the line in South Carolina. Perhaps they'll
45 SQ22 : If you ever have the chance to make a tour through the Lufthansa Technik Facilities at HAM and you're lucky, the guide will tell you something betwee
46 r2rho : Indeed, while unexpected, I would not be shocked if this were confirmed. With the current setup, LH would become highly Airbus-dependent after the re
47 Post contains images sweair : The 787 they will get are the optimal ones with all the fat trimmed and engines up to spec. Sometimes it pays to wait
48 einsteinboricua : I don't think we'll see more variants of the A330. The A350 kinda overlaps with the A330 in terms of capacity and the A330's boom is not only due to
49 Post contains images Semaex : Very vague outlook. I do not think that LH will simply replace the A340-300s with A330-300s. Yes the seat count is the same, but there is a reason wh
50 Thrust : This is the first time I've heard of the 787-10...I'm assuming it's a stretched 787-9?
51 KC135TopBoom : The only airplanes that Boeing or Airbus offered in that segment is the B-737-600 and the A-318. Both are gas guzzlers. Boeing didn't stick with the
52 cosmofly : Given that the key difference is trade range for simple stretch, I really want to "suspect" Boeing designs -9 and -10 in parallel. I recall it was sug
53 columba : I have read once that LH looked at the 737NG as a 737 classic replacement but decided against because the 737NG was too heavy and carried too much we
54 flightsimer : If we are talking about replacing the A340-300s and A340-600s and possibly the A330s, the A350 offers no more commonality than what the 777 would bec
55 btblue : "Boeing's newly-appointed senior vice-president of marketing, Mike Bair, says the 787-10X potentially provides a "absolutely astounding" improvement i
56 Cerecl : It makes little sense to compare the two because they are different classes of aircrafts. A340-600 can take more passengers and fly further than 787-
57 na : And that would mean, what, 40% better than the 77W? It will make the 777 and A340/330-300 obsolete in a few years if true.
58 RickNRoll : When you consider that the 346 is a different class of plane, which would compare more directly to a 777, the operating costs should be much lower.
59 Burkhard : No. LH is ointerested in an aircraft that does not put too much into range. The geografical position of Germany is such that 6000 miles are enough fo
60 btblue : Agree... the 787-10 will be at the top end of the line eating into the 777 so replacing that. Then you have the 7778X... seems like it makes sense. E
61 EddieDude : I was hoping someone would bring this up. I apologize if the answers to my questions are too obvious, or if my questions per se are not applicable to
62 UALWN : You may be forgetting LH's order for 20 748s.
63 CXB77L : That's where the difference lays between the 787-10X and the 777-8X. The 787-10X would only have 6,700nm (12,400km), while the 777-8X as propoed will
64 columba : The future 777-8 and -9 will both be a little larger than their predecessors.
65 Post contains images flyabr : How much more can you lengthen the 77W (or its future iteration) before it basically has to land without being able to flare for fear of a tailstrike?
66 Stitch : The 777-8 will be a long-range plane while the 787-10 will be a more medium range plane. Think A330-300 and A340-300 - same capacity, but the A333 ha
67 Revelation : But the A340s will age prematurely because of all the A380 routes they will take while the A380s are getting their wing cracks fixed... Cats have nin
68 na : Boeing targets a service entry at the end of the decade, 2019, which means, we can realistically expect 2020 or 2021. 787-10 about two or three years
69 EddieDude : Thanks guys, it is very interesting. I guess LH is eager to have a plane that can fly to its farthest destinations such as SIN and EZE while doing it
70 kaitak : So, we've heard from Lufthansa and ALC, but what indication is there from Boeing that they are willing to move forward with this model quickly? I am a
71 EddieDude : And the Middle Eastern airlines?
72 Stitch : Firm configuration for the 787-9 was some 18 months ago per an a.net post by one of the engineers on the program, so if they decide to make the 787-1
73 Revelation : Boeing's Mike Bair gave a bit of a timeline in the thread starter's article: Given he's wearing a marketing hat, I imagine that's a tad on the optimi
74 frmrCapCadet : LOL - the 787-10 is the long awaited bigger better 757 replacement. Not exactly, but a better and larger mid range model.
75 Heavierthanair : G'day That schedule would likely require a first flight towards the end of 2012 or early in 2013. In turn that would require component delivery and st
76 sunrisevalley : I have been able to closely match the numbers in the FlightGlobal article in PIANO X at about 133t OEW which is about 10t extra per stretch over the 7
77 Semaex : ... which means too much aircraft for most routes. If it's intended to replace current A333 / A343 routes it's just too much. Think about routes like
78 panais : ...which potentially leaves the door open for either Boeing or Airbus to try and come up with a version of the B787-3, but make it work this time. Ai
79 Burkhard : Yes, but currently on the table there is a good idea of what the A359 might look like and some idea of what the B78A might look like - I also read th
80 StickShaker : I think that the 787-10 should be a shoe-in for QF in that time-frame assuming QF follows normal business logic and common sense - but that doesn't a
81 Burkhard : I think LH prefers to have a plane as backbone that can do 60% of the long routes with optimum perfromance and does not compromise economy for range.
82 Stitch : What killed the 787-3 was the 52m wingspan. Even with a ~10% lower OEW, that short span hamstrung the plane on any stage length beyond 500nm. LH have
83 Post contains images ferpe : Boeing needs to up the MZFW to make the -10 useful for LH etc with something like 6-8t so there would be a total re-stressing of the frame to do, whi
84 sweair : Some here claim 788 will replace 757 just fine, I see a larger issue than with 7810 replacing A333.
85 Stitch : Trip costs will be the key, I expect. If it's cheaper to send out a less-than-full 787-10X than a full A330-300, airlines will send the 787-10X since
86 StickShaker : If it costs you a lot more to get your hands on that less-than-full 787-10X then it might not be quite so simple. Trip costs & CASM will be the 7
87 Revelation : It's also inevitable that Airbus won't release a product that undermines A350 sales, so it's scope is pretty constrained.
88 Stitch : Agreed. But if the LH Group does add the 787 for some of their carriers, then if the 787-10 is the only model of the family operated by LH, they stil
89 Post contains images columba : Keep in mind that LH if orders the 787 they will get probably a very good deal being a launch customer and they also might get a compensation for the
90 Post contains images sweair : By the time LH get their 7810 the frame will be a very efficient and weight trimmed frame, far from the first 788. For LH the delay might have actuall
91 StickShaker : I'm sure that Boeing would try their hardest but they are limited in what they can do given given the massive cost over-runs in the 787 program. Boei
92 sunrisevalley : I expect that Boeing are writing off a substantial part the cost overruns against current earnings.
93 Post contains images einsteinboricua : I think we'll see an A360 before we see another A330 variant. Who knows? I might be wrong.
94 Revelation : Given how well the current A330 is selling, there clearly is a substantial market for them. If Airbus makes the A330NG too good in terms of price/per
95 Post contains links and images StickShaker : Boeing will write off the costs in accounting terms but if they were funded by debt then that debt still needs to be repaid. The cost of servicing th
96 Stitch : An A330-300NG could be Airbus' 777X - a model not good enough compared to the competition to maintain the market lead or equilibrium, but good enough
97 sunrisevalley : This is sort of in the FWIW department. Boeing's 5-yr average debt to equity ratio is 3.96. As of Dec 31 2011 it was 3.429 so the 787 has not thrown
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